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Post by DSDSquared on Aug 23, 2017 14:18:04 GMT
People seem to forget that the entire story could have changed if Sansa was not so naïve and dumb in season one. She would have secretly left with Arya back to Winterfell on a boat, but she told Cersei her father's plans so she could stay with her 'beloved' Joffrey. If they left, the Lannisters would not have had hostages and when Jaime was captured, it could have turned the tide of the war.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 23, 2017 14:38:09 GMT
People seem to forget that the entire story could have changed if Sansa was not so naïve and dumb in season one. She would have secretly left with Arya back to Winterfell on a boat, but she told Cersei her father's plans so she could stay with her 'beloved' Joffrey. If they left, the Lannisters would not have had hostages and when Jaime was captured, it could have turned the tide of the war. This is irrelevant to season 7 and incorrect anyway.
Sansa herself made clear that she was a stupid little girl back then. In other words, it's time to get over it and especially since her dad was even more dumb and naïve to think he could outwit the Lannisters without actually outwitting them.
Plus, Ned would have never wanted her to do anything different.
Arya is not stupid enough to believe that Sansa is directly responsible for Ned's death unless one thinks her inaction at Harrenhal could easily be construed as her being responsible for her mother and brother's death.
Except now, of course, Arya is stupid enough to think that apparently.
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Post by DSDSquared on Aug 23, 2017 15:47:31 GMT
People seem to forget that the entire story could have changed if Sansa was not so naïve and dumb in season one. She would have secretly left with Arya back to Winterfell on a boat, but she told Cersei her father's plans so she could stay with her 'beloved' Joffrey. If they left, the Lannisters would not have had hostages and when Jaime was captured, it could have turned the tide of the war. This is irrelevant to season 7 and incorrect anyway.
Sansa herself made clear that she was a stupid little girl back then. In other words, it's time to get over it and especially since her dad was even more dumb and naïve to think he could outwit the Lannisters without actually outwitting them.
Plus, Ned would have never wanted her to do anything different.
Arya is not stupid enough to believe that Sansa is directly responsible for Ned's death unless one thinks her inaction at Harrenhal could easily be construed as her being responsible for her mother and brother's death.
Except now, of course, Arya is stupid enough to think that apparently.
Don't get me wrong, I think Arya is way off here. No one hated Joffrey more than Sansa. She was just a stupid little girl and now she is grown up and realizes this. I have no doubt Sansa and Arya will be fine with each other in the end. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 23, 2017 16:37:54 GMT
This is irrelevant to season 7 and incorrect anyway.
Sansa herself made clear that she was a stupid little girl back then. In other words, it's time to get over it and especially since her dad was even more dumb and naïve to think he could outwit the Lannisters without actually outwitting them.
Plus, Ned would have never wanted her to do anything different.
Arya is not stupid enough to believe that Sansa is directly responsible for Ned's death unless one thinks her inaction at Harrenhal could easily be construed as her being responsible for her mother and brother's death.
Except now, of course, Arya is stupid enough to think that apparently.
Don't get me wrong, I think Arya is way off here. No one hated Joffrey more than Sansa. She was just a stupid little girl and now she is grown up and realizes this. I have no doubt Sansa and Arya will be fine with each other in the end. Got it.
Given at they introduced the plot point at all, I'm skeptical.
They could have simply had Sansa say that LF & the Lannisters made her write it and that by itself would implicate LF.
I actually prefer the notion that LF is as obsessed with Sansa and would try to betray Sansa on his own.
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 24, 2017 9:51:15 GMT
I think Sansa pretty much owned Arya in this conversation. "Well Arya, you did naff all to help dad either so shut the **** up."
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 10:47:29 GMT
I think Sansa pretty much owned Arya in this conversation. "Well Arya, you did naff all to help dad either so shut the **** up." From what I saw Sansa was literally out of breath and scared out of wits. Arya totally dominated the entire exchange. if we are talking about that time, then Sansa did add to problems of Lord Stark by ratting out his plans. When sansa cared about being princess and queen, Arya was following people in dark dungeons of kings landing because they were plotting murder of her father. She didn't need to learn lessons of life to be good and kind. Sansa liar caused the death of her wolf while Arya was willing to fight for a poor boy's life. |
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 10:59:25 GMT
After rewatching I do actually think Arya is playing a game with Littlefinger here. I think Arya knew that Sansa still trusted Littlefinger too much and deliberately told her about the letter she found so that she would both tell Littlefinger about it and make it appear as though his plan of putting them against each other is going according to plan. I think she knows what his game is and is leading him along until it's time to slit his throat. I also think she gave the dagger to Sansa on purpose so that she has it at the opportune time when some truth, like Littlefinger betraying Ned in season 1, comes out during a confrontation. I do believe it a bit odd that Arya who is trained to be a faceless men would be fooled by littlefinger. She could always do the spy thing under a different face. So it is possible that there is some double game involved which might be revealed later. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 24, 2017 11:03:34 GMT
When sansa cared about being princess and queen, Arya was following people in dark dungeons of kings landing because they were plotting murder of her father. When Sansa cared for herself and being what her family had raised her to be for its benefit, Arya was caring for herself, chasing cats in futile pursuit of a role that no one else ever wanter her to take or had any interest in. What was your point again? |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 24, 2017 11:08:18 GMT
After rewatching I do actually think Arya is playing a game with Littlefinger here. I think Arya knew that Sansa still trusted Littlefinger too much and deliberately told her about the letter she found so that she would both tell Littlefinger about it and make it appear as though his plan of putting them against each other is going according to plan. I think she knows what his game is and is leading him along until it's time to slit his throat. I also think she gave the dagger to Sansa on purpose so that she has it at the opportune time when some truth, like Littlefinger betraying Ned in season 1, comes out during a confrontation. I do believe it a bit odd that Arya who is trained to be a faceless men would be fooled by littlefinger. She could always do the spy thing under a different face. So it is possible that there is some double game involved which might be revealed later. This sounds like the fan theories that popped up after S6E07, when Arya was stupidly walking around in the streets of Braavos to be surprised by the Waif. It was so dumb and out of character, no one wanted to believe it was really what happened, but it turned out to be so. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 24, 2017 11:14:16 GMT
I think Sansa pretty much owned Arya in this conversation. "Well Arya, you did naff all to help dad either so shut the **** up." From what I saw Sansa was literally out of breath and scared out of wits. Arya totally dominated the entire exchange. if we are talking about that time, then Sansa did add to problems of Lord Stark by ratting out his plans. When sansa cared about being princess and queen, Arya was following people in dark dungeons of kings landing because they were plotting murder of her father. She didn't need to learn lessons of life to be good and kind. Sansa liar caused the death of her wolf while Arya was willing to fight for a poor boy's life. Well, she was holding a Valerian knife and talking crazy with a bag of faces.... |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 24, 2017 11:19:17 GMT
After rewatching I do actually think Arya is playing a game with Littlefinger here. I think Arya knew that Sansa still trusted Littlefinger too much and deliberately told her about the letter she found so that she would both tell Littlefinger about it and make it appear as though his plan of putting them against each other is going according to plan. I think she knows what his game is and is leading him along until it's time to slit his throat. I also think she gave the dagger to Sansa on purpose so that she has it at the opportune time when some truth, like Littlefinger betraying Ned in season 1, comes out during a confrontation. I do believe it a bit odd that Arya who is trained to be a faceless men would be fooled by littlefinger. She could always do the spy thing under a different face. So it is possible that there is some double game involved which might be revealed later. Arya was fooled all the time as a Faceless Man. She routinely underestimated them and her own reactions which is why she sucked as a Faceless Man. She is far better as just a killer since her focus was never on being a Faceless Man, but rather on revenge. It's entirely possible that she's fooling LF though, but that doesn't change the method at which she is doing so from being stupid. Her plan, if there is one, unnecessarily risks Sansa's corruption when it would be far easier to join forces with Sansa against LF and especially since Sansa said in front of her & Bran that LF can't be trusted. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 24, 2017 11:23:01 GMT
I do believe it a bit odd that Arya who is trained to be a faceless men would be fooled by littlefinger. She could always do the spy thing under a different face. So it is possible that there is some double game involved which might be revealed later. Arya was fooled all the time as a Faceless Man. She routinely underestimated them and her own reactions which is why she sucked as a Faceless Man. She is far better as just a killer since her focus was never on being a Faceless Man, but rather on revenge. It's entirely possible that she's fooling LF though, but that doesn't change the method at which she is doing so from being stupid. Her plan, if there is one, unnecessarily risks Sansa's corruption when it would be far easier to join forces with Sansa against LF and especially since Sansa said in front of her & Bran that LF can't be trusted. The whole point of this appears to be to expose Arya as yet another impulsive moron, as most of the Starks are. This one may be cunning, but not intelligent. |
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 24, 2017 11:23:46 GMT
I think Sansa pretty much owned Arya in this conversation. "Well Arya, you did naff all to help dad either so shut the **** up." From what I saw Sansa was literally out of breath and scared out of wits. Arya totally dominated the entire exchange. if we are talking about that time, then Sansa did add to problems of Lord Stark by ratting out his plans. When sansa cared about being princess and queen, Arya was following people in dark dungeons of kings landing because they were plotting murder of her father. She didn't need to learn lessons of life to be good and kind. Sansa liar caused the death of her wolf while Arya was willing to fight for a poor boy's life. Oh yeah Sansa was definitely scared, but she won the argument. Arya was being a complete hypocrite expecting Sansa to do more than she did herself.
I'm not arguing that Sansa's a better person or anything. Personally I'm not a huge fan of either character. Sansa is still emulating Cersei in a way while Arya is naïve and hypocritical.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 11:24:12 GMT
I do believe it a bit odd that Arya who is trained to be a faceless men would be fooled by littlefinger. She could always do the spy thing under a different face. So it is possible that there is some double game involved which might be revealed later. Arya was fooled all the time as a Faceless Man. She routinely underestimated them and her own reactions which is why she sucked as a Faceless Man. Just like any trainee would when in company of supreme masters of their art. |
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 11:32:15 GMT
From what I saw Sansa was literally out of breath and scared out of wits. Arya totally dominated the entire exchange. if we are talking about that time, then Sansa did add to problems of Lord Stark by ratting out his plans. When sansa cared about being princess and queen, Arya was following people in dark dungeons of kings landing because they were plotting murder of her father. She didn't need to learn lessons of life to be good and kind. Sansa liar caused the death of her wolf while Arya was willing to fight for a poor boy's life. Oh yeah Sansa was definitely scared, but she won the argument. Arya was being a complete hypocrite expecting Sansa to do more than she did herself.
I'm not arguing that Sansa's a better person or anything. Personally I'm not a huge fan of either character. Sansa is still emulating Cersei in a way while Arya is naïve and hypocritical.
There is nothing hypocritical about Arya. Arya was at least going towards Eddard Stark before being caught and held by Yoren. yes, she would not have been able to do anything. But the fact remains that Sansa's actions increased the problems of Lord Stark. Given sansa's blatant lie and hypocritical behaviour that led to murder of Lady, Arya was not wrong in displaying her anger. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 24, 2017 11:34:19 GMT
From what I saw Sansa was literally out of breath and scared out of wits. Arya totally dominated the entire exchange. if we are talking about that time, then Sansa did add to problems of Lord Stark by ratting out his plans. When sansa cared about being princess and queen, Arya was following people in dark dungeons of kings landing because they were plotting murder of her father. She didn't need to learn lessons of life to be good and kind. Sansa liar caused the death of her wolf while Arya was willing to fight for a poor boy's life. Oh yeah Sansa was definitely scared, but she won the argument. Arya was being a complete hypocrite expecting Sansa to do more than she did herself.
I'm not arguing that Sansa's a better person or anything. Personally I'm not a huge fan of either character. Sansa is still emulating Cersei in a way while Arya is naïve and hypocritical.
This is what I would have liked about Sansa & Arya. They both learned to grow up in different ways and they should exploit those differences rather than have them devolve into kid stuff. Sansa grew up being a pawn to the great Houses while Arya grew up entirely outside the Westerosi class system. They could have been a perfect Odd Couple pair. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 24, 2017 11:39:54 GMT
Oh yeah Sansa was definitely scared, but she won the argument. Arya was being a complete hypocrite expecting Sansa to do more than she did herself.
I'm not arguing that Sansa's a better person or anything. Personally I'm not a huge fan of either character. Sansa is still emulating Cersei in a way while Arya is naïve and hypocritical.
There is nothing hypocritical about Arya. Arya was at least going towards Eddard Stark before being caught and held by Yoren. yes, she would not have been able to do anything. But the fact remains that Sansa's actions increased the problems of Lord Stark. Given sansa's blatant lie and hypocritical behaviour that led to murder of Lady, Arya was not wrong in displaying her anger. People need to go back and watch the episode.
Sansa wasn't exactly clapping.She tries to stop it too and is held back. She then faints at the sight of her father's head lopping off. I'm not sure how that is a betrayal of Ned and especially since Ned had just confessed to betraying the king and no one knew Joffrey was going to kill him. It's silly to place blame on Sansa over this to the point that I can;t really take the issue seriously with people. |
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 11:41:28 GMT
Arya was fooled all the time as a Faceless Man. She routinely underestimated them and her own reactions which is why she sucked as a Faceless Man. She is far better as just a killer since her focus was never on being a Faceless Man, but rather on revenge. It's entirely possible that she's fooling LF though, but that doesn't change the method at which she is doing so from being stupid. Her plan, if there is one, unnecessarily risks Sansa's corruption when it would be far easier to join forces with Sansa against LF and especially since Sansa said in front of her & Bran that LF can't be trusted. The whole point of this appears to be to expose Arya as yet another impulsive moron, as most of the Starks are. This one may be cunning, but not intelligent. A fan of Cersei and Jaime talking about others being moron is extremely ironical. yes, Tywin Lannister was intelligent and so is the imp. But that's it. Arya has defied every odd. She is not just brave but also intelligent. This is a world of modern people. These modern people have strange views. One of the views of these people is that capital punishment is evil and violence of any form is condemnable. These people hate Arya just for that reason. She is not good enough for their elitist sophisticated views. Killing Frey and his elitist high ranked officers is not a good thing for them. They have been rattling on about how Arya is a pyschopath. |
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 11:45:00 GMT
There is nothing hypocritical about Arya. Arya was at least going towards Eddard Stark before being caught and held by Yoren. yes, she would not have been able to do anything. But the fact remains that Sansa's actions increased the problems of Lord Stark. Given sansa's blatant lie and hypocritical behaviour that led to murder of Lady, Arya was not wrong in displaying her anger. People need to go back and watch the episode.
Sansa wasn't exactly clapping. I never said that she was clapping and not even mentioned sansa's conduct on the day Lord Stark died. Conducts before I certainly mentioned. Like her ratting out Lord Stark's plan to send her and Arya away or her conduct during Nymeria-Joffrey thing. |
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 24, 2017 11:45:54 GMT
Oh yeah Sansa was definitely scared, but she won the argument. Arya was being a complete hypocrite expecting Sansa to do more than she did herself.
I'm not arguing that Sansa's a better person or anything. Personally I'm not a huge fan of either character. Sansa is still emulating Cersei in a way while Arya is naïve and hypocritical.
There is nothing hypocritical about Arya. Arya was at least going towards Eddard Stark before being caught and held by Yoren. yes, she would not have been able to do anything. But the fact remains that Sansa's actions increased the problems of Lord Stark. Given sansa's blatant lie and hypocritical behaviour that led to murder of Lady, Arya was not wrong in displaying her anger. Yeah but none of that was discussed in that exchange. Arya basically said "You were there and you did nothing" to which Sansa quite rightly said "Well that's true of you too." Had Arya then said "Well at least I was hoping to help him" Sansa could also have said "And I was told if I behaved, father would have been spared so in my way I was helping him too."
And yeah Lady's death was Sansa's fault but as it was her direwolf that died, not Arya's, you could argue she was already punished for that.
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