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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 24, 2017 11:49:54 GMT
People need to go back and watch the episode. Sansa wasn't exactly clapping. I never said that she was clapping and not even mentioned sansa's conduct on the day Lord Stark died. Conducts before I certainly mentioned. Like her ratting out Lord Stark's plan to send her and Arya away or her conduct during Nymeria-Joffrey thing. You said "At least" which would seem to indicate you were comparing actions. I was arguing Arya wasn;t the only Stark daughter trying to prevent his murder that day. If you were saying that both acted as expected then my apologies. However, you are not the only one who questions Sansa's handling of the situation which, as clearly shown by the video, makes Arya's argument ridiculous. Of course she was a kid back then and perhaps was more focused on her father, so it can be forgiven. But for people who can watch the scene over and over to repeat what she says remains silly.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 11:52:51 GMT
I never said that she was clapping and not even mentioned sansa's conduct on the day Lord Stark died. Conducts before I certainly mentioned. Like her ratting out Lord Stark's plan to send her and Arya away or her conduct during Nymeria-Joffrey thing. You said "At least" which would seem to indicate you were comparing actions. I was arguing Arya wasn;t the only Stark daughter trying to prevent his murder that day. If you were saying that both acted as expected then my apologies. However, you are not the only one who questions Sansa's handling of the situation which, as clearly shown by the video, makes Arya's argument ridiculous. Of course she was a kid back then and perhaps was more focused on her father, so it can be forgiven. But for people who can watch the scene over and over to repeat what she says remains silly. My argument has mainly focused on sum total of Sansa's behaviour till Arya knew her. Nothing good to boost of. it was one thing to desire to be princess and completely different thing to put her father's plans to the Queen.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 24, 2017 11:58:52 GMT
The whole point of this appears to be to expose Arya as yet another impulsive moron, as most of the Starks are. This one may be cunning, but not intelligent. A fan of Cersei and Jaime talking about others being moron is extremely ironical. yes, Tywin Lannister was intelligent and so is the imp. But that's it. Arya has defied every odd. She is not just brave but also intelligent. This is a world of modern people. These modern people have strange views. One of the views of these people is that capital punishment is evil and violence of any form is condemnable. These people hate Arya just for that reason. She is not good enough for their elitist sophisticated views. Killing Frey and his elitist high ranked officers is not a good thing for them. They have been rattling on about how Arya is a pyschopath. Cersei is apparently more intelligent than you can see. It is nothing new, there is a large mass calling her dumb in spite of Tyrion saying the opposite. Arya is not a problem because she kills, but because she does it out of revenge, out of purely uncontrolled feelings. She's a mad dog. That's why she has to be put down. I hope we'll get that next season.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 12:04:28 GMT
A fan of Cersei and Jaime talking about others being moron is extremely ironical. yes, Tywin Lannister was intelligent and so is the imp. But that's it. Arya has defied every odd. She is not just brave but also intelligent. This is a world of modern people. These modern people have strange views. One of the views of these people is that capital punishment is evil and violence of any form is condemnable. These people hate Arya just for that reason. She is not good enough for their elitist sophisticated views. Killing Frey and his elitist high ranked officers is not a good thing for them. They have been rattling on about how Arya is a pyschopath. It is nothing new, there is a large mass calling her dumb in spite of Tyrion saying the opposite. Apparently Lord Tywin Lannister among them.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 24, 2017 12:09:25 GMT
It is nothing new, there is a large mass calling her dumb in spite of Tyrion saying the opposite. Apparently Lord Tywin Lannister among them. Yes, you keep proving your level. "Cersei is not as smart as she thinks she is" No one is, when you think of it. One's own intellect doesn't perceive its limits. The irony is that those who quote Tywin at length fail to recognise it themselves or they would realise it is a non-statement. It carries no useful meaning because it states the obvious. It could apply to anyone.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 12:19:51 GMT
Apparently Lord Tywin Lannister among them. Yes, you keep proving your level. "Cersei is not as smart as she thinks she is" No one is, when you think of it. One's own intellect doesn't perceive its limits. The irony is that those who quote Tywin at length fail to recognise it themselves or they would realise it is a non-statement. It carries no useful meaning because it states the obvious. It could apply to anyone. As if that's the only statement that talks about Cersei's intelligence. I remember from the books at least one place where the author says only Tyrion inherited intelligence from his father. Lord Tywin also called those who were counselling Joffrey as idiots. The very reason he sent Tyrion as his representative to Joff. Give me some time I will put some quotes from the books.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 24, 2017 12:24:24 GMT
Yes, you keep proving your level. "Cersei is not as smart as she thinks she is" No one is, when you think of it. One's own intellect doesn't perceive its limits. The irony is that those who quote Tywin at length fail to recognise it themselves or they would realise it is a non-statement. It carries no useful meaning because it states the obvious. It could apply to anyone. As if that's the only statement that talks about Cersei's intelligence. I remember from the books at least one place where the author says only Tyrion inherited intelligence from his father. Lord Tywin also called those who were counselling Joffrey as idiots. The very reason he sent Tyrion as his representative to Joff. Give me some time I will put some quotes from the books. We're talking about the show, idiot. It's time you shut up again.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 12:25:10 GMT
As if that's the only statement that talks about Cersei's intelligence. I remember from the books at least one place where the author says only Tyrion inherited intelligence from his father. Lord Tywin also called those who were counselling Joffrey as idiots. The very reason he sent Tyrion as his representative to Joff. Give me some time I will put some quotes from the books. We're talking about the show, idiot. It's time you shut up again. Concession noted.
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 24, 2017 15:30:29 GMT
It is nothing new, there is a large mass calling her dumb in spite of Tyrion saying the opposite. Apparently Lord Tywin Lannister among them. Well he did say she was less smart than she thought she was which is probably true but doesn't make her dumb by any means. I'd say she's fairly smart but nothing special. She's made a few good moves and a few bad blunders. She's chosen a good Hand though which is half the battle.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 16:30:36 GMT
Apparently Lord Tywin Lannister among them. Well he did say she was less smart than she thought she was which is probably true but doesn't make her dumb by any means. I'd say she's fairly smart but nothing special. She's made a few good moves and a few bad blunders. She's chosen a good Hand though which is half the battle. I guess a character who is queen and in an established position of power would certainly make a few smart moves. She is definitely cunning though her intelligence is below average as far as I am concerned. # Tyrion outsmarted her when it came to kettlebacks # Was only a day away from being exposed by Ned #Her blunder with sparrows # Completely incompetent while Tywin Lannister was away and Joff had become a new king # Tyrion outsmarted her when it came to her affair with Lancel #Tyrion outsmarted her when it came to finding how Pycell was ratting his plans out to her # Her success has come at a high cost of losing all kids. A 'fairly smart' person in my opinion shall be able to save her kids.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 24, 2017 16:38:24 GMT
Well he did say she was less smart than she thought she was which is probably true but doesn't make her dumb by any means. I'd say she's fairly smart but nothing special. She's made a few good moves and a few bad blunders. She's chosen a good Hand though which is half the battle. I guess a character who is queen and in an established position of power would certainly make a few smart moves. She is definitely cunning though her intelligence is below average as far as I am concerned. # Tyrion outsmarted her when it came to kettlebacks # Tyrion outsmarted her when it came to her affair with Lancel #Tyrion outsmarted her when it came to finding how Pycell was ratting his plans out to her # Her success has come at a high cost of losing all kids The Kettleblacks are book only, there was no outsmarting anyone but Pycelle in getting him to make a mistake, Cersei was not "outsmarted" about Lancel and the outcome of dangerous situations is in no way a measure of intelligence. You're still an idiot Aj-June, with no competence whatsoever in judging anything's intelligence.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 24, 2017 16:44:00 GMT
Although Cersei's intelligence varies season to season and she is definitely painted as an imbecile in the books, she has proven to be quite intelligent the past few seasons and especially with support from Jaime & Qyburn.
She has indeed outwitted Tyrion on more than one occasion and, against all odds and with the aid of a sucky plot, she has managed to hold her own against Dany.
Tyrion figuring out Cercei's cunning is not really a mark of Cercei being unintelligent, only that Tyrion is more intelligent.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 16:44:10 GMT
I guess a character who is queen and in an established position of power would certainly make a few smart moves. She is definitely cunning though her intelligence is below average as far as I am concerned. # Tyrion outsmarted her when it came to kettlebacks # Tyrion outsmarted her when it came to her affair with Lancel #Tyrion outsmarted her when it came to finding how Pycell was ratting his plans out to her # Her success has come at a high cost of losing all kids The Kettleblacks are book only, there was no outsmarting anyone but Pycelle in getting him to make a mistake, Cersei was not "outsmarted" about Lancel and the outcome of dangerous situations is in no way a measure of intelligence. You're still an idiot Aj-June, with no competence whatsoever in judging anything's intelligence. Puppy of the red keep, I know you hate books because many of the stupidities of Cersei are eliminated by keeping the books away. But the books are the foundation of the show and I will continue to bring them again and again. Keep trying to paint Lannisters as the lesser evil among those fighting for iron throne. But you will always remain unconvincing, sir.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 16:45:42 GMT
Although Cersei's intelligence varies season to season and she is definitely painted as an imbecile in the books, she has proven to be quite intelligent the past few seasons and especially with support from Jaime & Qyburn. She has indeed outwitted Tyrion on more than one occasion and, against all odds and with the aid of a sucky plot, she has managed to hold her own against Dany. Tyrion figuring out Cercei's cunning is not really a mark of Cercei being unintelligent, only that Tyrion is more intelligent. Cersei has been portrayed as slightly more intelligent since season 6 in the shows. In the books, an imbecile for sure.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 24, 2017 16:49:05 GMT
You said "At least" which would seem to indicate you were comparing actions. I was arguing Arya wasn;t the only Stark daughter trying to prevent his murder that day. If you were saying that both acted as expected then my apologies. However, you are not the only one who questions Sansa's handling of the situation which, as clearly shown by the video, makes Arya's argument ridiculous. Of course she was a kid back then and perhaps was more focused on her father, so it can be forgiven. But for people who can watch the scene over and over to repeat what she says remains silly. My argument has mainly focused on sum total of Sansa's behaviour till Arya knew her. Nothing good to boost of. it was one thing to desire to be princess and completely different thing to put her father's plans to the Queen. So this is just reaffirming my original suspicions.
Sansa did not reveal her father's plans. Ned had done that himself and she was acting primarily to save his life.
You're bring up her dog's death to justify events that happens after she is traded off to various men, abused by Joffrey, raped, & then threatened by her own sister is equalized by what she did as a kid.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 16:52:01 GMT
My argument has mainly focused on sum total of Sansa's behaviour till Arya knew her. Nothing good to boost of. it was one thing to desire to be princess and completely different thing to put her father's plans to the Queen. So this is just reaffirming my original suspicions.
Sansa did not reveal her father's plans. Ned had done that himself and she was acting primarily to save his life.
You're bring up her dog's death to justify events that happens after she is traded off to various men, abused by Joffrey, raped, & then threatened by her own sister is equalized by what she did as a kid.
She did go to queen and gave up her father's plan to send her and Arya away to winterfell. No, I am not justifying events that happened after Ned's death. I explicitly stated My argument has mainly focused on sum total of Sansa's behaviour till Arya knew her.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 24, 2017 16:58:24 GMT
So this is just reaffirming my original suspicions.
Sansa did not reveal her father's plans. Ned had done that himself and she was acting primarily to save his life.
You're bring up her dog's death to justify events that happens after she is traded off to various men, abused by Joffrey, raped, & then threatened by her own sister is equalized by what she did as a kid.
She did go to queen and gave up her father's plan to send her and Arya away to winterfell. No, I am not justifying events that happened after Ned's death. I explicitly stated My argument has mainly focused on sum total of Sansa's behaviour till Arya knew her.That is irrelevant because Ned was doomed n the basis of Cercei's kids being incestuous bastards.
You are holding a grudge that can't carry the weight of everything that is happened in the story.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 17:00:25 GMT
She did go to queen and gave up her father's plan to send her and Arya away to winterfell. No, I am not justifying events that happened after Ned's death. I explicitly stated My argument has mainly focused on sum total of Sansa's behaviour till Arya knew her.That is irrelevant because Ned was doomed n the basis of Cercei's kids being incestuous bastards.
You are holding a grudge that can't carry the weight of everything that is happened in the story.
How is that irrelevant (which has now become your pet dialogue)? That would have meant she and Arya would have made it back to Winterfell. And it definitely did put Arya and herself in a greater danger because of her love for her beloved jofferey. And had his plans of sending them away succeeded it would have provided greater leverage to Lord Stark to consider any other action.
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 24, 2017 17:25:46 GMT
I guess a character who is queen and in an established position of power would certainly make a few smart moves. She is definitely cunning though her intelligence is below average as far as I am concerned. Don't you need intelligence to be cunning? In fairness she did pretty well to hide that as long as she did, considering how well established Baratheon hair colour is! At any rate, she played all the right moves when Ned revealed his plans to her. Yeah but lets face it, only Margaery and Tywin had much success with Joffrey. Tyrion did well but it was unlikely to last long. I'd say that was Tyrion outsmarting Pycelle more than her. Well Joffrey's death was largely his own doing. Myrcella's death was more Tyrion's fault for thinking she could be safe amongst the Dornish who hated her. I would really only blame Tommen's death on Cersei. Plus pretty much everyone has lost loved ones in Westeros. Your other examples are fair enough though just because Tyrion is smarter doesn't make her dumb. I would consider her less smart than Tywin, Tyrion, Varys, Daenerys, Littlefinger, Oleanna or Ramsay but more so than Jaime, Ned, Catelyn, Sansa, Brienne and Edmuir. About on a par with Jon, Roose, Margaery or Pycelle.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2017 17:33:42 GMT
I guess a character who is queen and in an established position of power would certainly make a few smart moves. She is definitely cunning though her intelligence is below average as far as I am concerned. Don't you need intelligence to be cunning? In fairness she did pretty well to hide that as long as she did, considering how well established Targaryen hair colour is! At any rate, she played all the right moves when Ned revealed his plans to her. Yeah but lets face it, only Margaery and Tywin had much success with Joffrey. Tyrion did well but it was unlikely to last long. I'd say that was Tyrion outsmarting Pycelle more than her. Well Joffrey's death was largely his own doing. Myrcella's death was more Tyrion's fault for thinking she could be safe amongst the Dornish who hated her. I would really only blame Tommen's death on Cersei. Plus pretty much everyone has lost loved ones in Westeros. Your other examples are fair enough though just because Tyrion is smarter doesn't make her dumb. I would consider her less smart than Tywin, Tyrion, Varys, Daenerys, Littlefinger, Oleanna or Ramsay but more so than Jaime, Ned, Catelyn, Sansa, Brienne and Edmuir. About on a par with Jon, Roose, Margaery or Pycelle. Sure cunning requires a certain intelligence but it is usually position of power that gives people the opportunity to employ deceit (cunning). Choosing to let her daughter go to a place whose princess was raped by her father's man was certainly not a smart move. I won't contest your list except that margaery was more intelligent than her. But other than that the list is fine. It's just that we tend to describe those groups by slightly different terminologies.
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