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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2017 16:52:36 GMT
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Post by johnblutarsky on Sept 20, 2017 21:19:14 GMT
I would find the Bible more credible if, somewhere in its text, there was a good recipe for fried chicken.
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 20, 2017 21:46:29 GMT
I've been accused of several failures, but not thinking for myself (here on "Planet Arlon") is not one of them. Arlon, Lets both take a step back here. even though we disagree we don't need to mean to one another... Here me out: It's my theory that a lot of things we believe are taught to us by our parents at so early an age that we just automatically take it for granted. As if there's just no other way it could possibly be. As obvious as breathing air. Religion is one of those things. You were raised to believe, so you believe, and that's it. With you it stuck.
With me it did not. I was taken to church as a little kid, but I remember feeling a certain kind of hypocrisy about it. Here were all these people claiming to be good god fearing Christians, but they as soon as they left the church grounds they would go back to being pretty much ass holes. To quote a line from a movie (and I paraphrase)- "they are like stones in water. The rock is wet on the outside but the water does not penetrate to the inside".
This got me thinking about religion in general. And I started to find lots of holes, hypocrisies, and even outright lies. Too many for me to ignore. So while I believe that some people are good, and that for some people the source of that goodness comes from religion, I for one cant look past some of these issues.
In short, I cant just believe because that's the way I was taught too. I reserve the right to question things, even if it was my own parents who taught it to me. And in questioning I made up my own mind that religion is fantasy, and I don't need it in order to be a good person.
I was about 8 or 9 years old and I was in a waiting room. I don't remember dentist or doctor or even who was going to see one. As far as I remember I was along because there was no babysitter. What I do remember because it left a profound memory was an article in one of the magazines in the waiting room. The title was "We Don't Have Bodies, We Are Bodies" or words to the same effect. It was some kind of medical journal or magazine. I was somewhat shocked because I knew it was wrong. I knew then that I am not my body. I am a consciousness within it. It totally makes sense. It is not a fantasy. I'm not stupid. I am excellent at math and science.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 21, 2017 9:28:25 GMT
It was some kind of medical journal or magazine. I was somewhat shocked because I knew it was wrong. I knew then that I am not my body. I am a consciousness within it. It totally makes sense. It is not a fantasy. I'm not stupid. I am excellent at math and science. So if you suffered brain injury, your mind would remain unaffected?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 21, 2017 11:43:45 GMT
Even if God doesn't exist, it's not a parable.
It does have parables in it.
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Post by cupcakes on Sept 21, 2017 14:20:19 GMT
tpfkar It was some kind of medical journal or magazine. I was somewhat shocked because I knew it was wrong. I knew then that I am not my body. I am a consciousness within it. It totally makes sense. It is not a fantasy. I'm not stupid. I am excellent at math and science. So if you suffered brain injury, your mind would remain unaffected? In some cases there would be no discernible change in posts. I can diagram sentences. It's not like I can't.
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 21, 2017 15:51:39 GMT
It was some kind of medical journal or magazine. I was somewhat shocked because I knew it was wrong. I knew then that I am not my body. I am a consciousness within it. It totally makes sense. It is not a fantasy. I'm not stupid. I am excellent at math and science. So if you suffered brain injury, your mind would remain unaffected? I'm sorry I don't have more details about what happens to consciousness in death, severe injury, sleep, or very much else really. You do realize that even if I did it would necessarily be metaphor. Some people are annoyed by metaphor. Sometimes there simply is no other way to communicate. Unless people have the same experiences, it is not possible to communicate about them "literally."
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 21, 2017 16:08:19 GMT
1) It's a parable about arachic times, that we need to move away from. 2) It has caused nothing but staggering unrest, unease and confusion for humans throughout the centuries. 3) Anyone with half a brain, should know that the majority of it is not to be taken literally. It is also misinterpreted to the max, for selective reasoning's and agendas. Christ was about transcendence and moving away from living in fear. Fear, is what the church's and many fundamentalist Christians promote. Oh, the irony! 1) To what exactly? 2) I suspect humans are capable of all those things even without religion, especially without religion. 3) As I so carefully explained with the exercise where I ask you (plural) to describe the color green to a person blind from birth. You cannot do that "literally." To communicate an idea "literally" it must be an experience that parties in the discussion have in common. Until you see God yourself there can only be metaphor and highly symbolic speech to help you.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Sept 21, 2017 18:40:53 GMT
Arlon, Lets both take a step back here. even though we disagree we don't need to mean to one another... Here me out: It's my theory that a lot of things we believe are taught to us by our parents at so early an age that we just automatically take it for granted. As if there's just no other way it could possibly be. As obvious as breathing air. Religion is one of those things. You were raised to believe, so you believe, and that's it. With you it stuck.
With me it did not. I was taken to church as a little kid, but I remember feeling a certain kind of hypocrisy about it. Here were all these people claiming to be good god fearing Christians, but they as soon as they left the church grounds they would go back to being pretty much ass holes. To quote a line from a movie (and I paraphrase)- "they are like stones in water. The rock is wet on the outside but the water does not penetrate to the inside".
This got me thinking about religion in general. And I started to find lots of holes, hypocrisies, and even outright lies. Too many for me to ignore. So while I believe that some people are good, and that for some people the source of that goodness comes from religion, I for one cant look past some of these issues.
In short, I cant just believe because that's the way I was taught too. I reserve the right to question things, even if it was my own parents who taught it to me. And in questioning I made up my own mind that religion is fantasy, and I don't need it in order to be a good person.
I was about 8 or 9 years old and I was in a waiting room. I don't remember dentist or doctor or even who was going to see one. As far as I remember I was along because there was no babysitter. What I do remember because it left a profound memory was an article in one of the magazines in the waiting room. The title was "We Don't Have Bodies, We Are Bodies" or words to the same effect. It was some kind of medical journal or magazine. I was somewhat shocked because I knew it was wrong. I knew then that I am not my body. I am a consciousness within it. It totally makes sense. It is not a fantasy. I'm not stupid. I am excellent at math and science. Arlon, the interesting thing is this... I agree with you! I don't think we're ONLY our bodies either. I also believe there's a "soul" or "spirit" if you will. I can feel that's true in my bones; and I suppose many people would see that as me believing in something supernatural or religious. But while we agree on the what, we probably don't agree on the how and why.
I don't feel that religion, or the Bible in particular, explain my belief in God, or the soul/spirit, anymore than a Mickey Mouse cartoon does. I honestly believe that God, and our connection to him/her/it via a soul/spirit will all be explained through perfectly logical, even scientific means, one day. We're just not there yet. And I'm just as certain that it will all jibe perfectly with our understanding of physics, not religion. It will all make perfect sense when that day comes.
Religion, and books filled with myths, just confuse the matter.
p.s. I don't think you're stupid.
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 21, 2017 21:59:21 GMT
I was about 8 or 9 years old and I was in a waiting room. I don't remember dentist or doctor or even who was going to see one. As far as I remember I was along because there was no babysitter. What I do remember because it left a profound memory was an article in one of the magazines in the waiting room. The title was "We Don't Have Bodies, We Are Bodies" or words to the same effect. It was some kind of medical journal or magazine. I was somewhat shocked because I knew it was wrong. I knew then that I am not my body. I am a consciousness within it. It totally makes sense. It is not a fantasy. I'm not stupid. I am excellent at math and science. Arlon, the interesting thing is this... I agree with you! I don't think we're ONLY our bodies either. I also believe there's a "soul" or "spirit" if you will. I can feel that's true in my bones; and I suppose many people would see that as me believing in something supernatural or religious. But while we agree on the what, we probably don't agree on the how and why.
I don't feel that religion, or the Bible in particular, explain my belief in God, or the soul/spirit, anymore than a Mickey Mouse cartoon does. I honestly believe that God, and our connection to him/her/it via a soul/spirit will all be explained through perfectly logical, even scientific means, one day. We're just not there yet. And I'm just as certain that it will all jibe perfectly with our understanding of physics, not religion. It will all make perfect sense when that day comes.
Religion, and books filled with myths, just confuse the matter.
p.s. I don't think you're stupid.
Perhaps you're taking the Bible the wrong way. People often argue about whether the Bible must be taken "literally." I am rather certain the most important parts should not be. An exercise I use to show what I mean is this, try to describe the color green to a person blind since birth. Notice that you can't do so "literally." The word "green" only has meaning to people who have already experienced it. The most important parts of the Bible are things most people have never experienced. There is no way to describe such things literally. People who don't understand the necessary arts often make a terrible mess of things with their stunted thinking. That's all. It's their fault. The Bible isn't the problem. Did you ever play "Simon Says" as a child? I mean the game where a leader gives everyone else instructions like "stand on one foot" or "fold your arms" preceded by "Simon says" and if so everyone is supposed to follow the instruction. Then the leader will try an instruction without preceding it with "Simon says," and people who follow that instruction anyway are "out" because Simon didn't say. The Bible has books often from specific authors. In the book of Jeremiah he tells us it is "the word of the Lord which came to" him. The author of the book of Ecclesiastes was not a "prophet" and tells us "I gave my heart to seek and search out wisdom." It might well be then that the various books have different sorts of lessons. In the New Testament the books of Mark and Luke were not written by apostles. Perhaps we should be careful whether Simon says. Science is a wonderful thing but just being artless doesn't make anyone a scientist. Science can only solve problems when everyone agrees what the problem is. Most issues in society are so because there is no agreement what the problem is. Science is useless and other arts are required. See why I said when people think the bible has no merit it's because they read at an elementary school level now? P.S. I believe you can read at a college level. I think you might be following a crowd that is obviously very disinclined to read at a college level.
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Post by mslo79 on Sept 22, 2017 8:13:18 GMT
Whether someone believes it to be the Truth or not does not matter, it's real. God (i.e. The Holy Trinity (Father/Son(Jesus Christ)/Holy Spirit)) exists. believe it also, as far as i know a large portion of the planet believes in God (or a higher power etc). but what i think it boils down to for many is this... also, ill list this quote from Fulton J Sheen (1895-1979)... also, i think there is stuff that happens in the world which cannot be easily explained away like... -The Miracle of the Sun (which occurred 100 years ago next month on October 13th) -Our Lady of Guadalupe (from the year 1531) -Our Lady of Las Lajas (from the year 1754) etc etc but in the end... it's probably going to boil down to that St Thomas Aquinas quote above for some people as some people simply refuse to believe and will come up with any random explanation to deny supernatural things to sum it up. a quick quote in relation to that Our Lady of las Lajas image... some stuff happens in the world that at least makes it plausible that God might just exist for those doubters out there
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 22, 2017 10:30:44 GMT
So if you suffered brain injury, your mind would remain unaffected? I'm sorry I don't have more details about what happens to consciousness in death, severe injury, sleep, or very much else really. You do realize that even if I did it would necessarily be metaphor. Some people are annoyed by metaphor. Sometimes there simply is no other way to communicate. Unless people have the same experiences, it is not possible to communicate about them "literally." So, literally, you don't have any answer?
I do.
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 22, 2017 12:06:06 GMT
I'm sorry I don't have more details about what happens to consciousness in death, severe injury, sleep, or very much else really. You do realize that even if I did it would necessarily be metaphor. Some people are annoyed by metaphor. Sometimes there simply is no other way to communicate. Unless people have the same experiences, it is not possible to communicate about them "literally." So, literally, you don't have any answer?
I do.
No, you just think you do. That is another example of your general attitude about perfect information. The first son in Matthew 21:28-32 did not have perfect information and you don't have perfect information either. He had enough sense not to promise anything, you don't. You're like the second son who said, "Yes, I can do that," when you cannot. That is the problem. You seem determined to call the first son "unreliable" or otherwise a "liar" without justification. You suffer from the delusion that you can do any better. You are torturing the English "I will not" as some "promise" when you should not do that. It is not a promise to do nothing since the father did not ask for, and did not expect, any such such a promise. It was rather as I say merely a decline to promise. So the question is then not whether the first son is "unreliable" but whether his words are properly interpreted as a promise or a "bond." You obviously fail to understand that there are and were conventions in language. The conventions in language likely worked as I have explained them. Perhaps "don't count on it" would have been more "reliable" in your opinion. Is it really? More reliable or not it was not likely a convention in language in those times.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 22, 2017 12:20:52 GMT
So, literally, you don't have any answer?
I do.
No, you just think you do. That is another example of your general attitude about perfect information. My answer is that it as been proven that brain injury very often leads to deterioration of the mind's capabilities. I hope that helps. www.headway.org.uk/about-brain-injury/individuals/effects-of-brain-injury/ It appears you don't have perfect information either: for instance the information that the rest of this reply belongs in an entirely different thread and so may confuse the casual reader here. It is also your third or fourth complicated attempt at explaining away an obvious biblical contradiction - and one which still misses the point entirely.
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 22, 2017 12:31:12 GMT
1) My answer is that it as been proven that brain injury very often leads to deterioration of the mind's capabilities. 2) for instance the information that the rest of this reply belongs in an entirely different thread 1) How very unreliable of you to say "very often." If you can't be more specific go take your place with the deplorable and the first son. Or maybe you're finally learning the lesson I have been trying to teach you about perfect information. 2) I am certain there is a connection. You are doing here what the first son did and that makes it topical here.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 22, 2017 12:38:10 GMT
1) My answer is that it as been proven that brain injury very often leads to deterioration of the mind's capabilities. 2) for instance the information that the rest of this reply belongs in an entirely different thread 1) How very unreliable of you to say "very often." Not really since brain injury does not always necessarily mean the mind is impaired. In fact one can sometimes read of faculties being greatly enhanced. I can be relied upon not to express absolutes when reality shows different. Once again, this is the wrong thread lol. As for your 'lesson', well, I am sure one will see it much better expressed in your weekly column. It wouldn't be the first time you have been certain of something. I remember the last time with me it was that science 'couldn't say how old the earth was'. Oddly, it appeared that neither could you when asked ... perhaps your information wasn't too perfect?
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Post by cupcakes on Sept 22, 2017 12:44:31 GMT
tpfkar Whether someone believes it to be the Truth or not does not matter, it's real. God (i.e. The Holy Trinity (Father/Son(Jesus Christ)/Holy Spirit)) exists. believe it also, as far as i know a large portion of the planet believes in God (or a higher power etc). but what i think it boils down to for many is this... also, ill list this quote from Fulton J Sheen (1895-1979)... also, i think there is stuff that happens in the world which cannot be easily explained away like... -The Miracle of the Sun (which occurred 100 years ago next month on October 13th) -Our Lady of Guadalupe (from the year 1531) -Our Lady of Las Lajas (from the year 1754) etc etc but in the end... it's probably going to boil down to that St Thomas Aquinas quote above for some people as some people simply refuse to believe and will come up with any random explanation to deny supernatural things to sum it up. a quick quote in relation to that Our Lady of las Lajas image... some stuff happens in the world that at least makes it plausible that God might just exist for those doubters out there The gullible indoctrinated will go for anything the Church they worship puts out. Even so far as to embrace the the pernicious antisocial psychopathy of wanting to be hated. The Beast from the sea
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 22, 2017 12:47:15 GMT
1) How very unreliable of you to say "very often." Not really since brain injury does not always necessarily mean the mind is impaired. In fact one can sometimes read of faculties being greatly enhanced. I can be relied upon not to express absolutes when reality shows different. Once again, this is the wrong thread lol. As for your 'lesson', well, I am sure one will see it much better expressed in your weekly column. It wouldn't be the first time you have been certain of something. I remember the last time with me it was that science 'couldn't say how old the earth was'. Oddly, it appeared that neither could you when asked ... perhaps your information wasn't too perfect? Where do you get your information from? I recall that on a previous thread you stated that science had proved the existence of other dimensions beyond 3D, but you never expounded on why you are convinced that consciousness cannot exist in these dimensions.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 22, 2017 13:09:55 GMT
Where do you get your information from? I gave a link as one instance. There's plenty to be had. Er, that's because it never came up; but, for the record, I am not convinced of any such thing. And, Arlon and I are here discussing (well I am, and he is not responding to direct questions, as usual) the brain-mind duality in the local reality. I hope that helps. But, to coin your own phrase, why do you care?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Sept 22, 2017 15:34:54 GMT
Arlon, the interesting thing is this... I agree with you! I don't think we're ONLY our bodies either. I also believe there's a "soul" or "spirit" if you will. I can feel that's true in my bones; and I suppose many people would see that as me believing in something supernatural or religious. But while we agree on the what, we probably don't agree on the how and why.
I don't feel that religion, or the Bible in particular, explain my belief in God, or the soul/spirit, anymore than a Mickey Mouse cartoon does. I honestly believe that God, and our connection to him/her/it via a soul/spirit will all be explained through perfectly logical, even scientific means, one day. We're just not there yet. And I'm just as certain that it will all jibe perfectly with our understanding of physics, not religion. It will all make perfect sense when that day comes.
Religion, and books filled with myths, just confuse the matter.
p.s. I don't think you're stupid.
Perhaps you're taking the Bible the wrong way. People often argue about whether the Bible must be taken "literally." I am rather certain the most important parts should not be. An exercise I use to show what I mean is this, try to describe the color green to a person blind since birth. Notice that you can't do so "literally." The word "green" only has meaning to people who have already experienced it. The most important parts of the Bible are things most people have never experienced. There is no way to describe such things literally. People who don't understand the necessary arts often make a terrible mess of things with their stunted thinking. That's all. It's their fault. The Bible isn't the problem. Did you ever play "Simon Says" as a child? I mean the game where a leader gives everyone else instructions like "stand on one foot" or "fold your arms" preceded by "Simon says" and if so everyone is supposed to follow the instruction. Then the leader will try an instruction without preceding it with "Simon says," and people who follow that instruction anyway are "out" because Simon didn't say. The Bible has books often from specific authors. In the book of Jeremiah he tells us it is "the word of the Lord which came to" him. The author of the book of Ecclesiastes was not a "prophet" and tells us "I gave my heart to seek and search out wisdom." It might well be then that the various books have different sorts of lessons. In the New Testament the books of Mark and Luke were not written by apostles. Perhaps we should be careful whether Simon says. Science is a wonderful thing but just being artless doesn't make anyone a scientist. Science can only solve problems when everyone agrees what the problem is. Most issues in society are so because there is no agreement what the problem is. Science is useless and other arts are required. See why I said when people think the bible has no merit it's because they read at an elementary school level now? P.S. I believe you can read at a college level. I think you might be following a crowd that is obviously very disinclined to read at a college level. That brings up another interesting point: That what is written in most religious texts is open to interpretation.
For example: Did Moses ACTUALLY part the Red Sea, or is that to be taken as an analogy that his struggle was so great, and his faith so strong, that it was as if he parted the Read Sea. Whenever I ask people who "believe" about that I always get a nebulous answer at best. That kind've shows me that at best they also have some doubts, or just don't know. So, if you have doubts or don't know, how can you believe so strongly?
Another example: The Kuran has passages in it about Jihad. Some interpret that as an actual war against infidels. Other interpret that as a personal struggle to overcome evil impulses in one's own life. Who's right and who's wrong? They're both interpretations taken from the same texts. I don't know.
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