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Post by harpospoke on Oct 24, 2017 18:46:34 GMT
Good to see all the villains written down so it can be demonstrated how rare a "great villain" is in movies. I don't even remember the names of any of the Indiana Jones villains for instance. "Faceless typical Nazi" was in the first one.
I'll buy that DC fans are upset about weak villains when I see them get upset about BvS, MoS, SS, and WW villains. Without that, the complaint is obviously invalid. When it doesn't matter in DC movies...then it doesn't matter in any movie.
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 24, 2017 19:14:50 GMT
- A hero is only as good as the villain and obstacles he must overcome Agreed.
formersamhmd's 3 most frequent comments are: 1. The Academy gave Heath Ledger an Oscar for The Dark Knight only because he died. 2. Wonder Woman had artificial boosters. 3. MCU movies aren't about the villains.
#1 and #2 are false and have already been debunked many times. As for #3, that's a weak excuse for MCU's failure to write good villains.
It's 100% true that a hero is only as good as the villain and obstacles he must overcome. It's like if LeBron James is currently considered the best player in the NBA not because he plays against and dominates high school or college players but because he plays against and dominates NBA players.
If LeBron James only dominated against high school or college players, he wouldn't be considered great. Likewise, MCU's so-called "heroes" aren't much of a hero because they only fight villains that are junior varsity level so not much of an obstacle to overcome.
I've explained this to formsamhmd many times but formersamhmd just doesn't seem to understand it. Without Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker wouldn't be a great hero. Luke Skywalker would just be a farmboy. It's having a formidable adversary in Vader who pushes Luke to the limits that is what makes Luke a great and respected hero.
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 24, 2017 19:19:34 GMT
The big difference is that in Marvel the real meat of the story comes from the protagonist, their character flaws and the internal conflict they get from their allies and friends. The villain is mainly just a plot device, an obstacle to be overcome. Which gets boring after 10+ years seeing heros battling so called supervillains, defeating them easily and barely leaving with a scratch rinse and repeat. The villains should be the source of the heros conflicts and should challenge them to beyond their physical/mental limit to their breaking point. Agreed. It's like setting the treadmill to the lowest level and not even breaking a sweat and then saying that you've done your workout. Where's the challenge in that?
I've explained this to MCU fans before. Without Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker wouldn't a great hero. Luke would just be a farmboy. A hero is only good if they have a formidable adversary who pushes them to the limits.
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 24, 2017 19:27:54 GMT
It was considered brilliant for the 80s when the idea was thought up, now it's banal and exploitative. Even Ricky Gervais pointed out how using the Holocaust is just a cry for attention and "See how DEEP we are? We're referencing the Holocaust!"
This is well written. It is not about your silly "See how DEEP we are? We're referencing the Holocaust" posturing. On the contrary, they do not merely "reference" the holocaust, no they integrate it as the underlying psychological motivator of the villain. The entire film is like written around that, the mutants not as superhumans but as a minority fractured and divided about how to deal with political prosecution (as embodied by the senator) and hate.
It's a nice allegory that we usually do not get in other CBM franchises. Like it or not, if you cannot see merits in this writing you might be too far gone and blinded with MCU fanatism already.
This is too complex for formersamhmd to understand. That's why formersamhmd prefers watching the kiddie movies that MCU makes.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Oct 24, 2017 19:34:10 GMT
also what is good CBM writing about this is that is subverts the old fairy tale of becoming a good character by going through hell. It's fairly standard supervillain stuff. Can't you say that about all CBM villains? Including the MCU?
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 24, 2017 19:34:39 GMT
- A hero is only as good as the villain and obstacles he must overcome Agreed.
formersamhmd's 3 most frequent comments are: 1. The Academy gave Heath Ledger an Oscar for The Dark Knight only because he died. 2. Wonder Woman had artificial boosters. 3. MCU movies aren't about the villains.
#1 and #2 are false and have already been debunked many times. As for #3, that's a weak excuse for MCU's failure to write good villains.
It's 100% true that a hero is only as good as the villain and obstacles he must overcome. It's like if LeBron James is currently considered the best player in the NBA not because he plays against and dominates high school or college players but because he plays against and dominates NBA players.
If LeBron James only dominated against high school or college players, he wouldn't be considered great. Likewise, MCU's so-called "heroes" aren't much of a hero because they only fight villains that are junior varsity level so not much of an obstacle to overcome.
I've explained this to formsamhmd many times but formersamhmd just doesn't seem to understand it. Without Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker wouldn't be a great hero. Luke Skywalker would just be a farmboy. It's having a formidable adversary in Vader who pushes Luke to the limits that is what makes Luke a great and respected hero.
don't forget: - "being ashamed of comic books", - "bankrupt, grounded approach" and - "lazy writing because the villain is not a mere plot device". according to these criteria the laziest most bankrupted films ashamed of themselves are Psycho, TDK, Ing Basterds, Empire strikes back, Wrath of Khan Die Hard, Goldfinger etc Btw on "Ranker",with +500k votes, the Ledger-Joker in clear Numero Uno followed by Magneto on 10 (Vader and Palpatine are 2 and 7). www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-best-movie-villains-of-all-time
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Post by claudius on Oct 24, 2017 19:42:51 GMT
Yes, since UNCANNY X-MEN#150 (1981). You didn't know that? This reminds me of how people refuse to believe the Sentinels 'Adapt-to-Mutant-power' ability has been theirs since X-MEN#58 (1969). Does anyone use a search engine anymore?
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 24, 2017 19:51:42 GMT
Yes, since UNCANNY X-MEN#150 (1981). You didn't know that? This reminds me of how people refuse to believe the Sentinels 'Adapt-to-Mutant-power' ability has been theirs since X-MEN#58 (1969). Does anyone use a search engine anymore? Duly noted. I stopped reading comic when hitting puberty; I wasted my youth chasing women instead of studying comic books it seems. My ignorance now starts to show.
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 24, 2017 21:15:50 GMT
I'm sure people thought James Bond was a fad too. The Marvel characters are here to stay. "You don't really think you'll win, do you?" "Things Change".
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 24, 2017 21:16:35 GMT
It's 100% true that a hero is only as good as the villain and obstacles he must overcome. Said ever lazy writer ever.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Oct 24, 2017 21:16:41 GMT
"You don't really think you'll win, do you?" "Things Change".
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 24, 2017 21:17:08 GMT
It's fairly standard supervillain stuff. Can't you say that about all CBM villains? Including the MCU? Yeah, but the MCU isn't about taking the lazy way out.
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 24, 2017 21:21:06 GMT
Yes, since UNCANNY X-MEN#150 (1981). You didn't know that? This reminds me of how people refuse to believe the Sentinels 'Adapt-to-Mutant-power' ability has been theirs since X-MEN#58 (1969). Does anyone use a search engine anymore? Duly noted. I stopped reading comic when hitting puberty; I wasted my youth chasing women instead of studying comic books it seems. My ignorance now starts to show. What, you never heard of multi-tasking? How banal...
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Post by charzhino on Oct 24, 2017 21:38:54 GMT
Moving forward, Im willing to forgive the MCUs mediocre villains if they can get Thanos right. And hopefully that means:
No making lame jokes like Ultron with his omelette
No hero mocking Thanos like Doctor Strange with Kaciellius in serious moments
Developing Thanos' character properly and giving him plenty of screentime unlike Malketh
Thanos actually being a threat and killing atleast 2 Avengers permanently (ideally to kill Stark)
Not being defeated easily or in a silly way like Ultron and Ronan
Infinity War will be the highest stakes a comic book adaption has ever seen with a villain thats been introduced since Avengers 1. Not sure if Marvel will be too afraid to use the literal entity of Death but as long as they make Thanos' character close to his Infinity Gaunlet persona then it should be worth it (without the ending).
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Post by scabab on Oct 24, 2017 21:43:22 GMT
Well I'll be seeing Thor tomorrow so we'll see if Hela is another mediocre Marvel villain or not.
Between Ego and Vulture they've had a better line up of villains this year so hopefully they can make it three for three.
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 24, 2017 21:53:22 GMT
Well I'll be seeing Thor tomorrow so we'll see if Hela is another mediocre Marvel villain or not. Between Ego and Vulture they've had a better line up of villains this year so hopefully they can make it three for three. The movie will also have Grandmaster and Surtur as well.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Oct 24, 2017 22:53:15 GMT
Completely ridiculous villains. Like Ronan?
Ronan: "I'm Ronan the Big Bad Destroyer of Planets and I will destroy all of you!" Gets defeated by a silly Dance-Off.
He. Was. Never. Defeated. By. A. Dance-Off. Did you even watch the movie?
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 24, 2017 22:59:33 GMT
Like Ronan?
Ronan: "I'm Ronan the Big Bad Destroyer of Planets and I will destroy all of you!" Gets defeated by a silly Dance-Off.
He. Was. Never. Defeated. By. A. Dance-Off. Did you even watch the movie? He did, he just rejects reality.
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Post by merh on Oct 25, 2017 5:39:19 GMT
Going back to the characters as they existed in their comic book origins as I read them in the 1960s, EVERYTHING was formulaic. Bad guys were bad guys. Good guys were good guys. No real backstory. I have an early Thor where Loki attacks Thor as the son of Odin, Loki's enemy. No brother stuff mentioned. They were all wish fulfillment. Drink a potion, become Captain America. Shoot a few arrows & become Green Arrow or Hawkeye. They were kid stories like Saturday Morning Cartoons. All the rest is machinations to make them appeal to an older audience Steve Rogers was the 98 lb weakling who had sand kicked in his face figuratively until a magic potion made him a hero in an era many now can't comprehend, an era where boys lied about their age to join the army. His spirit was willing, but his body weak until science fixed it. How the HELL is that not an arc? Apparently it's because Steve didn't spout off speeches about how Love will save the world. Wonder Woman was so similar to First Avenger.
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Post by merh on Oct 25, 2017 6:27:16 GMT
Going back to the characters as they existed in their comic book origins as I read them in the 1960s, EVERYTHING was formulaic. Bad guys were bad guys. Good guys were good guys. No real backstory. I have an early Thor where Loki attacks Thor as the son of Odin, Loki's enemy. No brother stuff mentioned. They were all wish fulfillment. Drink a potion, become Captain America. Shoot a few arrows & become Green Arrow or Hawkeye. They were kid stories like Saturday Morning Cartoons. All the rest is machinations to make them appeal to an older audience Steve Rogers was the 98 lb weakling who had sand kicked in his face figuratively until a magic potion made him a hero in an era many now can't comprehend, an era where boys lied about their age to join the army. His spirit was willing, but his body weak until science fixed it. How the HELL is that not an arc? There's a lot to unpack in the idea that comic books and comic book movies need to be elevated to high literature and focus almost exclusively on metaphysical drama, existential angst, and pervasively dark themes. I wish it could be unfurled in a single post but, it can't. It goes far beyond the MCU vs. DCEU fanboy wars. The success of comic books and comic book movies is at the root of the problem. This success has increased the amount of “consumers” who seek to identify some intellectual merit in the artform without understanding, acknowledging or accepting its roots. A popular catchphrase you hear from the fanboy who will argue for his high-minded drama and depth in comic book movies is, that if you disagree, you've probably never read a comic book before. There's a lot of irony in that impotent and lazy attack. What they really mean to say is, "If you disagree, you've probably never read a graphic novel before." I blame Alan Moore for the fanboy's current state of cognitive dissonance. To make every comic book movie into a graphic novel, you have to deconstruct the wish-fulfillment fantasies that gave rise to the character in the first place. In so doing you create something that bears little resemblance to the source material it is derived from. (Although it may have merits on its own). The comic book medium does not need to be elevated to the stature of classical literature. Comic books are about close calls, near misses, and bold adventure. They don't need to be held aloft as sacred and inscrutable texts. As my 11th grade Honors English teacher said, classics are simply popular literature that has stood the test of time. Shakespeare threw in plenty of jokes for the cheap seats.
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