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Post by merh on Oct 25, 2017 6:43:45 GMT
Steve Rogers was the 98 lb weakling who had sand kicked in his face figuratively until a magic potion made him a hero in an era many now can't comprehend, an era where boys lied about their age to join the army. His spirit was willing, but his body weak until science fixed it. How the HELL is that not an arc?
It's not a character arc, merh. It's just shit happening...motivational stuff with a quantum of wish fulfillment by "a wizard/magic potion did it". You can like it.
Keep those kitties save from the cougars and raptors roaming. Peace.
The problem my fluffy pair are having is the record breaking heat. The short hair pair seem less miserable. It hit 105 today. At 11:30 pm it is 80 degrees. Steve Rogers is a good guy. He is from an era where a lot of people tried to so the right thing. The biggest complaint I got from other Comic book fans about Man of Steel was it wasn't Superman. He's also a good guy. Tony Stark was wrong when he said science was everything special about Cap. Steve Rogers was picked because he was a good guy, not a bully. Which Tony Stark often is. Not every hero has to be Batman.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Oct 25, 2017 10:51:53 GMT
Can't you say that about all CBM villains? Including the MCU? Yeah, but the MCU isn't about taking the lazy way out. Aren't they? All their villains have a simple motive, not saying it's a bad thing, but it's nothing ground breaking. That goes for DCEU as well.
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 25, 2017 11:17:33 GMT
There's a lot to unpack in the idea that comic books and comic book movies need to be elevated to high literature and focus almost exclusively on metaphysical drama, existential angst, and pervasively dark themes. I wish it could be unfurled in a single post but, it can't. It goes far beyond the MCU vs. DCEU fanboy wars. The success of comic books and comic book movies is at the root of the problem. This success has increased the amount of “consumers” who seek to identify some intellectual merit in the artform without understanding, acknowledging or accepting its roots. A popular catchphrase you hear from the fanboy who will argue for his high-minded drama and depth in comic book movies is, that if you disagree, you've probably never read a comic book before. There's a lot of irony in that impotent and lazy attack. What they really mean to say is, "If you disagree, you've probably never read a graphic novel before." I blame Alan Moore for the fanboy's current state of cognitive dissonance. To make every comic book movie into a graphic novel, you have to deconstruct the wish-fulfillment fantasies that gave rise to the character in the first place. In so doing you create something that bears little resemblance to the source material it is derived from. (Although it may have merits on its own). The comic book medium does not need to be elevated to the stature of classical literature. Comic books are about close calls, near misses, and bold adventure. They don't need to be held aloft as sacred and inscrutable texts. As my 11th grade Honors English teacher said, classics are simply popular literature that has stood the test of time. Shakespeare threw in plenty of jokes for the cheap seats. People don't realize how many sex jokes he threw into his stuff.
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 25, 2017 11:18:25 GMT
Yeah, but the MCU isn't about taking the lazy way out. Aren't they? All their villains have a simple motive, not saying it's a bad thing, but it's nothing ground breaking. That goes for DCEU as well. It's rather groundbreaking for a CBM to actually be about the hero first and foremost instead of the villain being the core of the story.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 25, 2017 11:56:23 GMT
Aren't they? All their villains have a simple motive, not saying it's a bad thing, but it's nothing ground breaking. That goes for DCEU as well. It's rather groundbreaking for a CBM to actually be about the hero first and foremost instead of the villain being the core of the story. If you believe it it's not a lie. But when your wishes override fact, it's called a delusion. I'm not an expert on CBMs; but - In the goofy 60s Batman films Batman & Robin were front and center - these came before MCU right? - In Superman 1 even worse (it's the go-to template for MCU as Feige himself declared), Lex was reduced to a comic cartoon villain- these films came before MCU right? - In Batman Begins also, Bruce's story was front and center - that one came before MCU right? - In Helloboy 1 & 2 nobody remembers the name of the villains (though the weak dark elf villain in 2 appeared in Thor 2 too) - these came before MCU right? - Even in Fox Men Magneto or Stryker never were center, the center were Logan, Rogue etc; it was just well written so that the villains are memorable.
Conclusio: Wrong, sam. The trend to write weak villains and formulaic heroes did not start with MCU, MCU just put it to the extreme.
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 25, 2017 12:39:48 GMT
In the goofy 60s Batman films Batman & Robin were front and center The villain frequently were the stars of that show and the movies. And still overshadowed Superman. Ra's was pretty much the source of everything. Without him there's no Batman and Bruce remains aimless. Hardly anyone remembers anything about the Hellboy movies. Heroes and villains. Nope, Stryker and Magneto are centre stage doing all the proactive stuff while Logan and co do nothing but react and are pretty secondary. They need Magneto to accomplish anything because of how weak, secondary and incompetent they are.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 25, 2017 12:43:59 GMT
^^^ Most impressive. I bet you diligently checked and rechecked those alternative deflections before posting.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 25, 2017 15:31:33 GMT
It's not a character arc, merh. It's just shit happening...motivational stuff with a quantum of wish fulfillment by "a wizard/magic potion did it". You can like it.
Keep those kitties save from the cougars and raptors roaming. Peace.
The problem my fluffy pair are having is the record breaking heat. The short hair pair seem less miserable. It hit 105 today. At 11:30 pm it is 80 degrees. Steve Rogers is a good guy. He is from an era where a lot of people tried to so the right thing. The biggest complaint I got from other Comic book fans about Man of Steel was it wasn't Superman. He's also a good guy. Tony Stark was wrong when he said science was everything special about Cap. Steve Rogers was picked because he was a good guy, not a bully. Which Tony Stark often is. Not every hero has to be Batman. This article from 2016 serves as a sentimental post mortem for Man of Steel. It's well sourced and very insightful. www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/02/the-trouble-with-superman/435408/But maybe we should continue to refer to recent efforts to "save" or "fix" the character as a character "arc." Hee hee hee...
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Post by claudius on Oct 25, 2017 15:59:19 GMT
Well, at the time of 1978, Luthor was pretty much a comic book mad scientist villain in green-purple leotards with the silly 'Superman accidentally caused me go prematurely bald!' motivation (The ruthless CEO Luthor would not be created until 1986). Compared to that, the Donner Luthor comes off rather grounded.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 18:03:10 GMT
10 years... 10 long years... of protesting the same thing over and over. Only to watch it grow in scale, popularity and influence. And, just think, it might last another 10... I have nothing but the profoundest respect for you and your kind. You're all soldiers of the apocalypse. Hee hee hee... All fads rise and fall. "Another 10" years you say, with skeletal chest puffed out proud? Let's see where it is in thirty years, kiddo. We already know they'll be making big-budget Batman and Superman movies... Hee hee hee... Its not a fad. Its a cultural phenomenon. It'll easily have another 10 years. In another thirty years, they'll still make be making Ironman, Captain America, and Thor films now that they know they can.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 18:10:24 GMT
Yeah, but the MCU isn't about taking the lazy way out. Aren't they? All their villains have a simple motive, not saying it's a bad thing, but it's nothing ground breaking. That goes for DCEU as well. Having the balls to make movies about the Guardians of the Galaxy and Doctor Strange isn't taking the lazy way out. And it is ground breaking. The MCU as a whole is ground-breaking.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 25, 2017 18:17:32 GMT
Aren't they? All their villains have a simple motive, not saying it's a bad thing, but it's nothing ground breaking. That goes for DCEU as well. Having the balls to make movies about the Guardians of the Galaxy and Doctor Strange isn't taking the lazy way out. And it is ground breaking. The MCU as a whole is ground-breaking. Yeah, I'm not sure if some of the more ardent detractors of the MCU understand that if Marvel had done things their way, the MCU would have failed altogether some time ago.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 18:20:53 GMT
Having the balls to make movies about the Guardians of the Galaxy and Doctor Strange isn't taking the lazy way out. And it is ground breaking. The MCU as a whole is ground-breaking. Yeah, I'm not sure if some of the more ardent detractors of the MCU understand that if Marvel had done things their way, the MCU would have failed altogether some time ago. Making the MCU their way would basically be the DCEU, but with Marvel characters. Endless naval-gazing, Philosophy 101 lectures in the the middle of the film, under-stated visual effects, most of the comic book-y elements toned WAY down, and the villains being the star of the show while the heroes would all invariably be boring ciphers who only exist to oppose them.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 25, 2017 18:29:29 GMT
Well, at the time of 1978, Luthor was pretty much a comic book mad scientist villain in green-purple leotards with the silly 'Superman accidentally caused me go prematurely bald!' motivation (The ruthless CEO Luthor would not be created until 1986). Compared to that, the Donner Luthor comes off rather grounded. That sounds about right - and grounding the character seems what made this a timeless classic. Also, the Williams soundtrack alone blows away all that came after (and I am not talking about the blaring SM theme, but the entire soundtrack). Wonder how this film would have fared and aged if it had a 70s Popsong collection and was build on pop culture jokes.
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Post by harpospoke on Oct 25, 2017 18:40:50 GMT
- A hero is only as good as the villain and obstacles he must overcome 3. MCU movies aren't about the villains.
#1 and #2 are false and have already been debunked many times. As for #3, that's a weak excuse for MCU's failure to write good villains.
It's 100% true that a hero is only as good as the villain and obstacles he must overcome. It's like if LeBron James is currently considered the best player in the NBA not because he plays against and dominates high school or college players but because he plays against and dominates NBA players.
If LeBron James only dominated against high school or college players, he wouldn't be considered great. Likewise, MCU's so-called "heroes" aren't much of a hero because they only fight villains that are junior varsity level so not much of an obstacle to overcome.
I've explained this to formsamhmd many times but formersamhmd just doesn't seem to understand it. Without Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker wouldn't be a great hero. Luke Skywalker would just be a farmboy. It's having a formidable adversary in Vader who pushes Luke to the limits that is what makes Luke a great and respected hero.
Another fake complaint. When it only bothers you when it's Marvel, that means it doesn't really bother you until it's convenient for your agenda. Or are you willing to say that means Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad were not good heroes in MoS, BvS, SS and WW? This is just turned into a DC fan talking point. Your sceenname is perfect. The claim is not even true as proven in countless movies over the years. Indiana Jones is one of the all time great heroes and has never had a great villain once. Name one great villain for Dirty Harry. Superman is one of the all time great heroes and has one of the most pathetic villains....Lex Luther can't possibly present a challenge to Supes. Some "obstacle". Let's see you move the goal posts when it's a DC character. You rightly point out that Vader was the nemesis of Luke in the Star Wars films... ...Guess who was the most popular hero in those movies? Han Solo. So much for that theory.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 18:44:09 GMT
3. MCU movies aren't about the villains.
#1 and #2 are false and have already been debunked many times. As for #3, that's a weak excuse for MCU's failure to write good villains.
It's 100% true that a hero is only as good as the villain and obstacles he must overcome. It's like if LeBron James is currently considered the best player in the NBA not because he plays against and dominates high school or college players but because he plays against and dominates NBA players.
If LeBron James only dominated against high school or college players, he wouldn't be considered great. Likewise, MCU's so-called "heroes" aren't much of a hero because they only fight villains that are junior varsity level so not much of an obstacle to overcome.
I've explained this to formsamhmd many times but formersamhmd just doesn't seem to understand it. Without Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker wouldn't be a great hero. Luke Skywalker would just be a farmboy. It's having a formidable adversary in Vader who pushes Luke to the limits that is what makes Luke a great and respected hero.
Another fake complaint. When it only bothers you when it's Marvel, that means it doesn't really bother you until it's convenient for your agenda. Or are you willing to say that means Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad were not good heroes in MoS, BvS, SS and WW? This is just turned into a DC fan talking point. Your sceenname is perfect. The claim is not even true as proven in countless movies over the years. Indiana Jones is one of the all time great heroes and has never had a great villain once. Name one great villain for Dirty Harry. Superman is one of the all time great heroes and has one of the most pathetic villains....Lex Luther can't possibly present a challenge to Supes. Some "obstacle". Let's see you move the goal posts when it's a DC character. You rightly point out that Vader was the nemesis of Luke in the Star Wars films... ...Guess who was the most popular hero in those movies? Han Solo. So much for that theory. Another you can add to the list is Hans Gruber. The man has no personal history, no motive outside of greed, is completely one-note, and only ever on-screen when he needs to be. People remember Gruber because of who played him, not because he was a richly written character. Much like the MCU films that would follow suit later, Die Hard is mainly concerned with what make John McClane tick.
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Post by harpospoke on Oct 25, 2017 18:48:19 GMT
Another fake complaint. When it only bothers you when it's Marvel, that means it doesn't really bother you until it's convenient for your agenda. Or are you willing to say that means Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad were not good heroes in MoS, BvS, SS and WW? This is just turned into a DC fan talking point. Your sceenname is perfect. The claim is not even true as proven in countless movies over the years. Indiana Jones is one of the all time great heroes and has never had a great villain once. Name one great villain for Dirty Harry. Superman is one of the all time great heroes and has one of the most pathetic villains....Lex Luther can't possibly present a challenge to Supes. Some "obstacle". Let's see you move the goal posts when it's a DC character. You rightly point out that Vader was the nemesis of Luke in the Star Wars films... ...Guess who was the most popular hero in those movies? Han Solo. So much for that theory. Another you can add to the list is Hans Gruber. The man has no personal history, no motive outside of greed, is completely one-note, and only ever on-screen when he needs to be. People remember Gruber because of who played him, not because he was a richly written character. Much like the MCU films that would follow suit later, Die Hard is mainly concerned with what make John McClane tick. Well I love Alan Rickman too much to agree to that one!
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 25, 2017 18:56:50 GMT
Yeah, I'm not sure if some of the more ardent detractors of the MCU understood that if Marvel had done things their way, the MCU would have failed altogether some time ago. Making the MCU their way would basically be the DCEU, but with Marvel characters. Endless naval-gazing, Philosophy 101 lectures in the the middle of the film, under-stated visual effects, most of the comic book-y elements toned WAY down, and the villains being the star of the show while the heroes would all invariably be boring ciphers who only exist to oppose them. Well said. Let's not forget that in order to follow the strict edict of "massively high stakes every day all day," either the world, the universe, the multiverse or reality itself would have to be imperiled in every single installment.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 19:47:19 GMT
Making the MCU their way would basically be the DCEU, but with Marvel characters. Endless naval-gazing, Philosophy 101 lectures in the the middle of the film, under-stated visual effects, most of the comic book-y elements toned WAY down, and the villains being the star of the show while the heroes would all invariably be boring ciphers who only exist to oppose them. Well said. Let's not forget that in order to follow the strict edict of "massively high stakes every day all day," either the world, the universe, the multiverse or reality itself would have to be imperiled in every single installment. That, too. Having a huge epic story makes it harder for those personal stories they seem to want to even be possible. Then when Marvel makes personal stories like the Netflix series, Guardians Vol. 2, Homecoming, even Doctor Strange, they disregard it.
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Post by TheHiawatha on Oct 26, 2017 1:07:48 GMT
I think you bring up some pretty solid points. Really, each movie brand has only a handful of truly iconic foes over their histories. For Marvel, it's Magneto, Doc Oc, Loki, and probably now the Vulture, and then to a lesser degree Dafoe's Green Goblin and Ultron (love them or hate them). For DC and the DCEU, really it's been Nicholson's and Ledger's Jokers, Stamp's General Zod, and probably Pfeiffer's Catwoman and Eckhart's Two-Face, and then to a lesser degree DeVito's Penguin and Hardy's Bane (love them or hate them).
Of course, each side has a chance to add another one. "Justice League" is trying to drum up anticipation for Steppenwolf and Darkseid, while Thanos has had years of buildup, a few major cameos, and is getting tons of hype. Not to mention that for Thanos, the Russos confirmed he will be considered almost the main character in "Avengers: Infinity War."
Comics-wise, DC has a clear advantage in having villains who are well-known names due to Superman and Batman having deep rogues galleries. But in the films, they're pretty well-matched in terms of iconic or memorable portrayals.
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