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Post by President Ackbar™ on Nov 5, 2017 3:19:48 GMT
He was a hell of a lot better than the norm. I thought Iron Monger was a great villain.  |
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TheHiawatha
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Post by TheHiawatha on Nov 5, 2017 3:32:03 GMT
When MCU villains are really no worse than superhero movies made by other studios. Fox has one good/great villain which is Magneto. You can argue that Stryker and Shaw were good but they were still forgettable to the general populace. And let's not even get into Silver Samurai, Galactus, Dr. Doom, Toad, etc. Sony's Spiderman movies had a decent Green Goblin in the beginning and a great Dr. Octopus... then never had any villain of worth until Vulture. DC has been around for a long time and has a long list of villains... but how many were actually good and memorable? Only Joker (both from TDK and Batman '89) was truly memorable, with arguably Penguin and Lex Luthor from Superman I too to a degree... but do they really have any other great villains? Some are done very well but are somewhat forgettable by the general populace like Ozymandias, Zod from Superman II, etc. But then the MCU also have villains like that who are well done but aren't too memorable like Zemo and Pierce. All the other DC villains seem to range from forgettable to utterly cringe-worthy. What I'm saying is that the MCU is really not that much different in the villain department yet they're the only one getting criticized for it. I think it's because of three reasons: 1) The MCU is the biggest superhero franchise right now, so it'll get the most attention for its strengths and weaknesses. 2) Heath Ledger's Joker set an INSANELY high standard. He was literally so incredible in the role, so memorable, and so dynamic as a character that he became the bar by which all other superhero film villains are held to. |
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Post by TheHiawatha on Nov 5, 2017 3:35:44 GMT
It's because they're just too forgettable. They have way too little screentime that they have very little to work with at all so they don't really have much in the way of depth. They don't have memorable lines or scenes. They just feel obligatory. One of the few exceptions was Loki who actually had quite a bit of screentime in Thor and wasnt one dimensional at all. The same was also true for the Winter Soldier. And it's no coincidence that out of all of them those two are by far the most popular ones. I think Vulture can be added to that list also. The critics and audiences as a whole singled out Vulture and Keaton's performance as among the highlights of the film. |
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Post by scabab on Nov 5, 2017 3:50:57 GMT
He was a hell of a lot better than the norm. Iron Monger, Abomination, Red Skull, Whiplash, Ronan, Malekith, Hela, Yellow Jacket and Kaekilius. All much inferior characters. Vulture was more on par with the likes of Ego, Killian and Ultron. I thought Iron Monger was a great villain. Jeff Bridges as Obadiah Stane played a pretty good part. It was well acted and the character was intimidating, I actually have no problem with that part of the character at all. It was just sort of !etc down by the actual Iron Monger himself. The "evil Iron Man" who showed up for about 5 minutes at the end. Which is another MCU villain problem in itself. The villains being just an evil version of the good guy. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 4:01:00 GMT
I thought Iron Monger was a great villain. Jeff Bridges as Obadiah Stane played a pretty good part. It was well acted and the character was intimidating, I actually have no problem with that part of the character at all. It was just sort of !etc down by the actual Iron Monger himself. The "evil Iron Man" who showed up for about 5 minutes at the end. Which is another MCU villain problem in itself. The villains being just an evil version of the good guy. Oh, look, our Mod and supposed MCU fan is back to talk some more about how awful the MCU is. |
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Post by TheHiawatha on Nov 5, 2017 4:04:02 GMT
I thought Iron Monger was a great villain. Jeff Bridges as Obadiah Stane played a pretty good part. It was well acted and the character was intimidating, I actually have no problem with that part of the character at all. It was just sort of !etc down by the actual Iron Monger himself. The "evil Iron Man" who showed up for about 5 minutes at the end. Which is another MCU villain problem in itself. The villains being just an evil version of the good guy. I don't think there's anything wrong with making the villain a dark doppelganger of the hero. It just depends on how he/she is written and portrayed. The Winter Soldier is basically a dark, soulless Captain America, what he himself was fully capable of doing if placed into the wrong hands. |
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 5, 2017 4:39:19 GMT
It's because they're just too forgettable. They have way too little screentime that they have very little to work with at all so they don't really have much in the way of depth. They don't have memorable lines or scenes. They just feel obligatory. One of the few exceptions was Loki who actually had quite a bit of screentime in Thor and wasnt one dimensional at all. The same was also true for the Winter Soldier. And it's no coincidence that out of all of them those two are by far the most popular ones. I don't think you understood my OP. My question wasn't why MCU villains were being criticized but why ONLY the MCU villains were criticized despite the fact that other studios' villains were just as bad if not worse in general? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 4:43:01 GMT
It's because they're just too forgettable. They have way too little screentime that they have very little to work with at all so they don't really have much in the way of depth. They don't have memorable lines or scenes. They just feel obligatory. One of the few exceptions was Loki who actually had quite a bit of screentime in Thor and wasnt one dimensional at all. The same was also true for the Winter Soldier. And it's no coincidence that out of all of them those two are by far the most popular ones. I don't think you understood my OP. All of the other studios have villains just as bland or even worse than the MCU. Why is the MCU the only one getting criticized for it? Haven't you been paying attention? Most of the supposed fans, including Scabab himself, just seem to want to tear it down. If I've learned anything from my last conversation on the topic with him, the MCU just can't do anything right as far as he's concerned. |
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Nov 5, 2017 6:02:16 GMT
To be fair fox and the DCEU have been pretty lazy with their villians as well.
In fact it seems like the Nolan Batman films were the only ones with decent villians.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 5, 2017 6:14:48 GMT
To be fair fox and the DCEU have been pretty lazy with their villians as well. In fact it seems like the Nolan Batman films were the only ones with decent villians. If Ciaran Hinds is anything less than the second coming of CBM villains in Justice League... Hee hee hee... |
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Post by scabab on Nov 5, 2017 7:15:19 GMT
Oh, look, our Mod and supposed MCU fan is back to talk some more about how awful the MCU is. Huh? Who said anything about anything being awful? Iron Man was a fantastic movie. Compose yourself. I don't think there's anything wrong with making the villain a dark doppelganger of the hero. It's alright but the MCU is just doing it too often. Iron Monger and Whiplash were evil people in Iron Man type suits. The Abomination was another green hulking powerful monster. Red Skull and Winter Soldier were other super soldiers. Yellow Jacket was another guy in a high tech shrinking suit. Kaekilius was another sorcerer. Now we have the Black Panther where it seems like the main villain....is an evil person in a Black Panther costume. It's a bit boring when they keep doing it. I don't think you understood my OP. My question wasn't why MCU villains were being criticized but why ONLY the MCU villains were criticized despite the fact that other studios' villains were just as bad if not worse in general? They are criticized though. Amongst recent superhero movies, Lex Luthor in Batman vs Superman and Dr Doom in Fantastic Four received a vast amount more hate than any MCU villain ever has. The villains in The Amazing Spider-man 2 were looked down upon severely. As was Apocalypse in the newest X-men movie. Can't say I've see much praise for Enchantress in Suicide Squad. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 5, 2017 7:25:12 GMT
Oh, look, our Mod and supposed MCU fan is back to talk some more about how awful the MCU is. Huh? Who said anything about anything being awful? Iron Man was a fantastic movie. Compose yourself. I don't think there's anything wrong with making the villain a dark doppelganger of the hero. It's alright but the MCU is just doing it too often. Iron Monger and Whiplash were evil people in Iron Man type suits. The Abomination was another green hulking powerful monster. Red Skull and Winter Soldier were other super soldiers. Yellow Jacket was another guy in a high tech shrinking suit. Kaekilius was another sorcerer. Now we have the Black Panther where it seems like the main villain....is an evil person in a Black Panther costume. It's a bit boring when they keep doing it. I don't think you understood my OP. My question wasn't why MCU villains were being criticized but why ONLY the MCU villains were criticized despite the fact that other studios' villains were just as bad if not worse in general? They are criticized though. Amongst recent superhero movies, Lex Luthor in Batman vs Superman and Dr Doom in Fantastic Four received a vast amount more hate than any MCU villain ever has. The villains in The Amazing Spider-man 2 were looked down upon severely. As was Apocalypse in the newest X-men movie. Can't say I've see much praise for Enchantress in Suicide Squad. Not true! I was a huge fan of her hula dance moves. Hee hee hee... |
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 5, 2017 7:31:00 GMT
Oh, look, our Mod and supposed MCU fan is back to talk some more about how awful the MCU is. Huh? Who said anything about anything being awful? Iron Man was a fantastic movie. Compose yourself. I don't think there's anything wrong with making the villain a dark doppelganger of the hero. It's alright but the MCU is just doing it too often. Iron Monger and Whiplash were evil people in Iron Man type suits. The Abomination was another green hulking powerful monster. Red Skull and Winter Soldier were other super soldiers. Yellow Jacket was another guy in a high tech shrinking suit. Kaekilius was another sorcerer. Now we have the Black Panther where it seems like the main villain....is an evil person in a Black Panther costume. It's a bit boring when they keep doing it. I don't think you understood my OP. My question wasn't why MCU villains were being criticized but why ONLY the MCU villains were criticized despite the fact that other studios' villains were just as bad if not worse in general? They are criticized though. Amongst recent superhero movies, Lex Luthor in Batman vs Superman and Dr Doom in Fantastic Four received a vast amount more hate than any MCU villain ever has. The villains in The Amazing Spider-man 2 were looked down upon severely. As was Apocalypse in the newest X-men movie. Can't say I've see much praise for Enchantress in Suicide Squad. They are only criticized per villain, never a studio as a whole. People say MCU has a villain problem but never say Fox or DC has a villain problem. As if MCU villains as a whole are om average worse than other studio villains... which isn't true at all. |
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Post by scabab on Nov 5, 2017 7:40:01 GMT
They are only criticized per villain, never a studio as a whole. People say MCU has a villain problem but never say Fox or DC has a villain problem. As if MCU villains as a whole are om average worse than other studio villains... which isn't true at all. Well...it actually might be true. It depends how you break it down. The DCEU has only read had the one good villain out of four but it is only movies and they have other problems that people speak of. The DC as a whole though does have the better villains, between Lex Luthor, Zod, The Joker, Penguin, Catwoman, The Riddler, The Joker again, Scarecrow, Bane and Zod they've had some pretty good villains or at least memorable ones. Fox hasn't really had much in the way of good villains in non X-men movies but they've had some good ones in them, mainly Magneto and Stryker. It's pointed out more so with Marvel because all these movies are pretty good. They don't have the same kind of glaring problems that the others have had and the mediocre villains (and they aren't even bad villains, they're just passable) is just something that people picked up on. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 5, 2017 7:44:54 GMT
They are only criticized per villain, never a studio as a whole. People say MCU has a villain problem but never say Fox or DC has a villain problem. As if MCU villains as a whole are om average worse than other studio villains... which isn't true at all. Well...it actually might be true. It depends how you break it down. The DCEU has only read had the one good villain out of four but it is only movies and they have other problems that people speak of. The DC as a whole though does have the better villains, between Lex Luthor, Zod, The Joker, Penguin, Catwoman, The Riddler, The Joker again, Scarecrow, Bane and Zod they've had some pretty good villains or at least memorable ones. Fox hasn't really had much in the way of good villains in non X-men movies but they've had some good ones in them, mainly Magneto and Stryker. It's pointed out more so with Marvel because all these movies are pretty good. They don't have the same kind of glaring problems that the others have had and the mediocre villains (and they aren't even bad villains, they're just passable) is just something that people picked up on. The only reason any of this villain nonsense is even a thing is because - HISTORICALLY - WB/DC has ALWAYS cast charismatic actors as villains who go on to COMPLETELY DWARF and DOMINATE their invariably bland heroic counterparts. DC fans have been conditioned - to this day - to believe that is the way all CBM movies should be not realizing this is a side effect of most DC heroes being flat-out boring mofos. Helen Slater vs. Faye Dunaway? WTF! Hee hee hee... |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Nov 5, 2017 8:28:30 GMT
well, people have every right to and are right about it. Because MCU is infamous for it's cookie cutter heroes and underwritten villains reduced to mere plot devices without proper motivation. Also, DC and Fox Men have some of the most famous villains ever, eg on the biggest voting forum "Ranker" with half a million votes the Joker is 1. and Magneto is 10. www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-best-movie-villains-of-all-timeAsk people on the street who never watch CBMs: Everybody knows the above household names and some more DC villain like Penguin or Zod. The MCU villains I couldn't even name myself. Even if you artificially and unfairly reduce the comparison criteria to 17 MCU films VS only 4 DCEU films, the DCEU is clearly ahead quality-wise: Bc it's villains are carried by ideas and were very different so far, Zod was the most well motivated and classically written villain so far; the only one who was a plausibel thread. WW had a good and original writing concept with a mystery villain, she really fought the cause of war and aggression, SS was an assembly of rogues but the creepiest was the good guy lead who shot her men in the back etc. MCU recycles the same arcs and tropes all the time, even with villains - eg the "former friend becomes nemesis" cliche as seen with IM1, Thor, Bucky etc. Btw, the best MCU villain is Loki. But even he is hampered by the fact that he is reduced to a shadow of the the original mythological trickster who leads the Gods into Ragnarök and has his offspring kill them in the end. MCU's Young Adult Emo-Loki cookie cutter approach is not too convincing. Also, FraggleRock now ruined his character and reduced him to a weak fun sidekick again. It is shameful really. |
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Nov 5, 2017 13:29:33 GMT
To be fair fox and the DCEU have been pretty lazy with their villians as well. In fact it seems like the Nolan Batman films were the only ones with decent villians. If Ciaran Hinds is anything less than the second coming of CBM villains in Justice League... Hee hee hee... I don't have any high hopes for Steppenwolf. I really wish DC would have gone with a more unique villian rather than go with another brute. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 5, 2017 14:54:20 GMT
I thought Iron Monger was a great villain. Jeff Bridges as Obadiah Stane played a pretty good part. It was well acted and the character was intimidating, I actually have no problem with that part of the character at all. It was just sort of !etc down by the actual Iron Monger himself. The "evil Iron Man" who showed up for about 5 minutes at the end. Which is another MCU villain problem in itself. The villains being just an evil version of the good guy. That's hardly something only Marvel does. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 5, 2017 14:57:19 GMT
well, people have every right to and are right about it. Because MCU is infamous for Being about its heroes and not its villains. And for making heroic leads who are more than the pristine-do-gooder archetype DC promoted as the ONLY kind of hero. And that's what people raised on older CBMs where the villains were traditionally always the stars...just can't stand. Doesn't help that DCEU is continuing the usual trend, but for decades their comics were really about bland heroes being overshadowed by villains so some of it comes from flaws in their source material. |
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Post by scabab on Nov 5, 2017 16:48:44 GMT
The only reason any of this villain nonsense is even a thing is because - HISTORICALLY - WB/DC has ALWAYS cast charismatic actors as villains who go on to COMPLETELY DWARF and DOMINATE their invariably bland heroic counterparts. DC fans have been conditioned - to this day - to believe that is the way all CBM movies should be not realizing this is a side effect of most DC heroes being flat-out boring mofos. Helen Slater vs. Faye Dunaway? WTF! Hee hee hee... The villains in the first two Batman movies, Joker, Penguin and Catwoman were good villains and pretty popular at that but it hasn't stopped Michael Keaton's Batman from being well liked and popular. Same with The Dark Knight. Christopher Reeve's Superman is still always thought highly of but Gene Hackman as Lex Luthor still played a good part in that movie. Or even X-men, Magneto is a popular and well liked villain but it never came at the expense of Wolverine's popularity. |
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