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Post by Skaathar on Nov 4, 2017 20:55:06 GMT
When MCU villains are really no worse than superhero movies made by other studios. Fox has one good/great villain which is Magneto. You can argue that Stryker and Shaw were good but they were still forgettable to the general populace. And let's not even get into Silver Samurai, Galactus, Dr. Doom, Toad, etc.
Sony's Spiderman movies had a decent Green Goblin in the beginning and a great Dr. Octopus... then never had any villain of worth until Vulture.
DC has been around for a long time and has a long list of villains... but how many were actually good and memorable? Only Joker (both from TDK and Batman '89) was truly memorable, with arguably Penguin and Lex Luthor from Superman I too to a degree... but do they really have any other great villains? Some are done very well but are somewhat forgettable by the general populace like Ozymandias, Zod from Superman II, etc. But then the MCU also have villains like that who are well done but aren't too memorable like Zemo and Pierce. All the other DC villains seem to range from forgettable to utterly cringe-worthy.
What I'm saying is that the MCU is really not that much different in the villain department yet they're the only one getting criticized for it.
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 4, 2017 21:27:55 GMT
When MCU villains are really no worse than superhero movies made by other studios. Fox has one good/great villain which is Magneto. You can argue that Stryker and Shaw were good but they were still forgettable to the general populace. And let's not even get into Silver Samurai, Galactus, Dr. Doom, Toad, etc. Sony's Spiderman movies had a decent Green Goblin in the beginning and a great Dr. Octopus... then never had any villain of worth until Vulture. DC has been around for a long time and has a long list of villains... but how many were actually good and memorable? Only Joker (both from TDK and Batman '89) was truly memorable, with arguably Penguin and Lex Luthor from Superman I too to a degree... but do they really have any other great villains? Some are done very well but are somewhat forgettable by the general populace like Ozymandias, Zod from Superman II, etc. But then the MCU also have villains like that who are well done but aren't too memorable like Zemo and Pierce. All the other DC villains seem to range from forgettable to utterly cringe-worthy. What I'm saying is that the MCU is really not that much different in the villain department yet they're the only one getting criticized for it. I think it's because the MCU villains go from good to serviceable. Meaning you have the memorable ones then you have the ones that merely do their job. The ones that merely do their job aren't the ones you remember a few movies down. But, on the other hand, the DC and Spider-man villains range from good to bad. There are not that many in betweens like the MCU villains. You remember the bad villains, but you don't remember the serviceable ones.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 4, 2017 21:40:00 GMT
True. Even the worst MCU villains are just bland. None of them are cringe-worthy.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 4, 2017 22:19:26 GMT
Because for the longest time, CBMs were more defined by their villains than their heroes.
When MCU inverted that, the audiences were surprised and even after 9 years still have a hard time wrapping their heads around the notion of the hero actually being the star of the show.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2017 23:36:41 GMT
MCU villains are no more two-dimensional than Hans Gruber.
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Post by blockbusted on Nov 4, 2017 23:57:25 GMT
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Post by merh on Nov 5, 2017 0:02:09 GMT
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Post by scabab on Nov 5, 2017 1:01:18 GMT
It's because they're just too forgettable. They have way too little screentime that they have very little to work with at all so they don't really have much in the way of depth. They don't have memorable lines or scenes.
They just feel obligatory.
One of the few exceptions was Loki who actually had quite a bit of screentime in Thor and wasnt one dimensional at all. The same was also true for the Winter Soldier.
And it's no coincidence that out of all of them those two are by far the most popular ones.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 1:04:00 GMT
It's because they're just too forgettable. They have way too little screentime that they have very little to work with at all so they don't really have much in the way of depth. They don't have memorable lines or scenes. They just feel obligatory. One of the few exceptions was Loki who actually had quite a bit of screentime in Thor and wasnt one dimensional at all. The same was also true for the Winter Soldier. And it's no coincidence that out of all of them those two are by far the most popular ones. You ARE aware that most movie villains aren't that memorable, right? The greats are few and far between. How about instead of demanding that Marvel exhaust all their resources to makes sure the villains eat up more screentime than the heroes, you accept these films for what they are, instead of constantly complaining about what they aren't.
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Post by scabab on Nov 5, 2017 1:13:25 GMT
It's because they're just too forgettable. They have way too little screentime that they have very little to work with at all so they don't really have much in the way of depth. They don't have memorable lines or scenes. They just feel obligatory. One of the few exceptions was Loki who actually had quite a bit of screentime in Thor and wasnt one dimensional at all. The same was also true for the Winter Soldier. And it's no coincidence that out of all of them those two are by far the most popular ones. You ARE aware that most movie villains aren't that memorable, right? The greats are few and far between. How about instead of demanding that Marvel exhaust all their resources to makes sure the villains eat up more screentime than the heroes, you accept these films for what they are, instead of constantly complaining about what they aren't. No of course not. I'm not saying they've got to be. They don't even have to be on the same level as Loki. But again the Vulture was a good villain, a lot better than the average MCU villain and that didn't hinder Spider-man himself in anyway. He isn't exactly memorable either but he at least something worthwhile to do. He wasn't one dimensional because he was just an ordinary family man who ended up doing bad things after losing his job and for money, tried to kill Spider-man for getting in the way but still tried to give him a chance and now you also don't really know what he's planning. They should all strive to be on that kind of level. Not the usual "I'm a dastardly villain and here's my evil plan. Let's fight now! Arghhh I'm defeated".
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 1:19:12 GMT
You ARE aware that most movie villains aren't that memorable, right? The greats are few and far between. How about instead of demanding that Marvel exhaust all their resources to makes sure the villains eat up more screentime than the heroes, you accept these films for what they are, instead of constantly complaining about what they aren't. No of course not. I'm not saying they've got to be. They don't even have to be on the same level as Loki. But again the Vulture was a good villain, a lot better than the average MCU villain and that didn't hinder Spider-man himself in anyway. He isn't exactly memorable either but he at least something worthwhile to do. He wasn't one dimensional because he was just an ordinary family man who ended up doing bad things after losing his job and for money, tried to kill Spider-man for getting in the way but still tried to give him a chance and now you also don't really know what he's planning. They should all strive to be on that kind of level. Not the usual "I'm a dastardly villain and here's my evil plan. Let's fight now! Arghhh I'm defeated". This has been explained. They all have their motivations beyond being evil. They're more invested in their heroes, and they're not going to change that. I can still remember a time when the hero was always invariably a boring cipher next to a more colorful villain, and I'm in no hurry to revisit those times. If we have an interesting hero to follow for two hours, I'm happy.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Nov 5, 2017 1:28:32 GMT
The All Time Great villains were also All Time Great actors :
Gene Hackman
Terence Stamp
Jack Nicholson
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Post by scabab on Nov 5, 2017 1:32:07 GMT
No of course not. I'm not saying they've got to be. They don't even have to be on the same level as Loki. But again the Vulture was a good villain, a lot better than the average MCU villain and that didn't hinder Spider-man himself in anyway. He isn't exactly memorable either but he at least something worthwhile to do. He wasn't one dimensional because he was just an ordinary family man who ended up doing bad things after losing his job and for money, tried to kill Spider-man for getting in the way but still tried to give him a chance and now you also don't really know what he's planning. They should all strive to be on that kind of level. Not the usual "I'm a dastardly villain and here's my evil plan. Let's fight now! Arghhh I'm defeated". This has been explained. They all have their motivations beyond being evil. They're more invested in their heroes, and they're not going to change that. I can still remember a time when the hero was always invariably a boring cipher next to a more colorful villain, and I'm in no hurry to revisit those times. If we have an interesting hero to follow for two hours, I'm happy. Well they shouldn't be because it's coming at the expense of a mediocre villain who is the second most important character in the story. It's a very odd thing for Marvel fans to defend because it goes against exactly what Thor and Captain America Winter Solider did so successfully. Thor had a good hero and a good villain that people really liked. So are you saying that was wrong then? Captain America Winter Solider gave a good amount of screentime to the villain Winter Solider and he wasn't just some generic villain. He's also proven to be really popular. Both Loki and Winter Soldier have continued to be in other movies because of this which has only further made them more popular. So this was wrong? Other Marvel movies shouldn't also strive to create villains that people like as much as Loki and Winter Soldier?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 1:36:03 GMT
This has been explained. They all have their motivations beyond being evil. They're more invested in their heroes, and they're not going to change that. I can still remember a time when the hero was always invariably a boring cipher next to a more colorful villain, and I'm in no hurry to revisit those times. If we have an interesting hero to follow for two hours, I'm happy. Well they shouldn't be because it's coming at the expense of a mediocre villain who is the second most important character in the story. It's a very odd thing for Marvel fans to defend because it goes against exactly what Thor and Captain America Winter Solider did so successfully. Thor had a good hero and a good villain that people really liked. So are you saying that was wrong then? Captain America Winter Solider gave a good amount of screentime to the villain Winter Solider and he wasn't just some generic villain. He's also proven to be really popular. Both Loki and Winter Soldier have continued to be in other movies because of this which has only further made them more popular. So this was wrong? Other Marvel movies shouldn't also strive to create villains that people like as much as Loki and Winter Soldier? Obadiah Stane, General Ross, Whiplash, and The Red Skull don't exactly lend themselves to sympathetic character arcs and deep characterization. Especially The Red Skull. And Bucky isn't really a villain. He's a brain-washed drone and he received his development beforehand in the first film before he was taken by Hydra. The real villains were Hydra. No, Marvel shouldn't put its focus into creating the next Loki or Winter Soldier, because its not necessary every single fucking time.
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Post by scabab on Nov 5, 2017 1:50:35 GMT
They don't have to. Simply making them as good as Vulture would be a big step in the right direction.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 1:52:49 GMT
They don't have to. Simply making them as good as Vulture would be a big step in the right direction. The Vulture was no better or worse than the rest of the lineup.
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Post by darkpast on Nov 5, 2017 1:56:28 GMT
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Post by scabab on Nov 5, 2017 2:03:59 GMT
They don't have to. Simply making them as good as Vulture would be a big step in the right direction. The Vulture was no better or worse than the rest of the lineup. He was a hell of a lot better than the norm. Iron Monger, Abomination, Red Skull, Whiplash, Ronan, Malekith, Hela, Yellow Jacket and Kaekilius. All much inferior characters. Vulture was more on par with the likes of Ego, Killian and Ultron.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 2:04:30 GMT
The Vulture was no better or worse than the rest of the lineup. He was a hell of a lot better than the norm. Iron Monger, Abomination, Red Skull, Whiplash, Ronan, Malekith, Hela, Yellow Jacket and Kaekilius. All much inferior characters. Vulture was more on par with the likes of Ego, Killian and Ultron. Nope. He was standard fare.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 5, 2017 3:13:53 GMT
The Vulture was no better or worse than the rest of the lineup. He was a hell of a lot better than the norm. Iron Monger, Abomination, Red Skull, Whiplash, Ronan, Malekith, Hela, Yellow Jacket and Kaekilius. All much inferior characters. Vulture was more on par with the likes of Ego, Killian and Ultron. I thought Iron Monger was a great villain.
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