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Post by THawk on Nov 28, 2017 23:23:10 GMT
Right, we heard you. Your dislike and belief that religion has brought nothing but evil to the world has been clearly established. The OP's question, albeit asked in an attacking matter, is not "tell me how much religion sucks" but "what is religious freedom.'
A good Democracy is not defined by ideological purity, but by how well different and sometimes contrary ideas and beliefs coexist and are allowed to function in society. Even if you believe something is totally wrong and harmful, if you believe in Democracy, you have to believe in protecting religious and other kinds of freedom. Otherwise you are left with totalitarian regimes, such as China, that seek to repress religion at every step - while in effect still worshiping their own ideology. I wasn't responding to the OP's question, I was responding to this statement of yours: Oh and as a historical lesson, religion has been the building block of human civilization and the building factor that has built up everything, for good or for bad. Without religion humankind would still be swinging from the trees into feces-infested cave orgies. Which, to be perfectly honest.....seems to be exact wish of so much of secular society.
My answer to your statement was:
Yes, the building block of human civilization, built on the backs of captured non-believers (Egypt) or by human sacrifice (Aztecs), ad nauseam. Religion has been used to control large groups of the have-nots by the haves. Napoleon said that religion was a fine thing to keep the common people quiet, someone else quoted that religion was what kept the poor from murdering the rich. A fine legacy, religion.
Clear, now?
Which, as you can understand, is a useless observation. If you eliminated religion from the history of humankind, would you even have any history to speak of? Would humanity ever have advanced past the caves? You speak of religion but you may as well be speaking of humanity in general, both of which are capable of and have displayed endless good (which you ignore) and endless evil. Unless you are trying to argue that humanity without religion would have evolved into some kind of incredibly advanced fantasy utopia - which would be laughably deluded and totally ignorant of pretty much everything.
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Post by cupcakes on Nov 28, 2017 23:37:36 GMT
tpfkar Which, as you can understand, is a useless observation. If you eliminated religion from the history of humankind, would you even have any history to speak of? Would humanity ever have advanced past the caves? You speak of religion but you may as well be speaking of humanity in general, both of which are capable of and have displayed endless good (which you ignore) and endless evil. Unless you are trying to argue that humanity without religion would have evolved into some kind of incredibly advanced fantasy utopia - which would be laughably deluded and totally ignorant of pretty much everything. Religion is a manifestation of humans - aggression, control, savagery all included - not the other way around. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
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Post by goz on Nov 29, 2017 2:50:51 GMT
No, you are quite wrong.
Refusing to bake someone a wedding cake purely on the grounds of them being gay is discrimination in its worst form. In this country, it is also illegal. The fact that you can't see this means the rest of your argument is problematic, and frankly ridiculous. Discrimination is not at all subjective, as it forms part of the legislature.
Edit: and update with breaking news just come through on my phone that the new law in Australia for same sex marriage has just got through our upper house(Senate) by a huge majority and ruling out amendments for religious exemptions, except for ministers of religion and churches who have demonstrated that it is against their religion to marry gay people on their premises. All secular marriage celebrants must perform them, and any discrimination against gay coupes is illegal. Yay. Good sense prevails.
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Post by mslo79 on Nov 29, 2017 7:41:24 GMT
Jesus does not support sinful stuff. period. so naturally He will be against same sex 'marriage'.
It's got nothing to do with bigotry/hatred/discrimination, but simply right and wrong.
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Post by faustus5 on Nov 29, 2017 11:23:00 GMT
Jesus does not support sinful stuff. period. so naturally He will be against same sex 'marriage'. It's got nothing to do with bigotry/hatred/discrimination, but simply right and wrong. Spoken like a true mindless bigot.
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Post by THawk on Nov 29, 2017 13:54:29 GMT
No, you are quite wrong. Refusing to bake someone a wedding cake purely on the grounds of them being gay is discrimination in its worst form. In this country, it is also illegal. The fact that you can't see this means the rest of your argument is problematic, and frankly ridiculous. Discrimination is not at all subjective, as it forms part of the legislature. Edit: and update with breaking news just come through on my phone that the new law in Australia for same sex marriage has just got through our upper house(Senate) by a huge majority and ruling out amendments for religious exemptions, except for ministers of religion and churches who have demonstrated that it is against their religion to marry gay people on their premises. All secular marriage celebrants must perform them, and any discrimination against gay coupes is illegal. Yay. Good sense prevails. The most troubling of that bill is that parents will not be allowed to remove children from school over teachings they disagree with. Which is completely unworkable. If Australia deems that the belief of conservative Christians is so evil and destructive, then why are children allowed to stay with conservative parents in the first place? Why not take all children from conservative homes? If politicians are so convinced that conservatism is harmful to children, then it seems cruel on their part to allow children to "suffer" inside conservative religious households? If on the other hand Australia has any concern with religious freedom, then yeah, parents should be given that right. One can't have it both ways.
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Post by cupcakes on Nov 29, 2017 19:58:49 GMT
tpfkar Jesus does not support sinful stuff. period. so naturally He will be against same sex 'marriage'. It's got nothing to do with bigotry/hatred/discrimination, but simply right and wrong. Whatever nastiness and savagery you want to come up with you can "sanitize" it with "God"'s and "Allah"'s "right and wrong". I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!
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Post by scienceisgod on Nov 29, 2017 20:55:09 GMT
No, you are quite wrong. Refusing to bake someone a wedding cake purely on the grounds of them being gay is discrimination in its worst form. In this country, it is also illegal. The fact that you can't see this means the rest of your argument is problematic, and frankly ridiculous. Discrimination is not at all subjective, as it forms part of the legislature. Edit: and update with breaking news just come through on my phone that the new law in Australia for same sex marriage has just got through our upper house(Senate) by a huge majority and ruling out amendments for religious exemptions, except for ministers of religion and churches who have demonstrated that it is against their religion to marry gay people on their premises. All secular marriage celebrants must perform them, and any discrimination against gay coupes is illegal. Yay. Good sense prevails. The most troubling of that bill is that parents will not be allowed to remove children from school over teachings they disagree with. Which is completely unworkable. If Australia deems that the belief of conservative Christians is so evil and destructive, then why are children allowed to stay with conservative parents in the first place? Why not take all children from conservative homes? If politicians are so convinced that conservatism is harmful to children, then it seems cruel on their part to allow children to "suffer" inside conservative religious households? If on the other hand Australia has any concern with religious freedom, then yeah, parents should be given that right. One can't have it both ways. Compulsory schooling was originally an Evangelical Christian scheme to “Christianize” the Catholics. Evangelical progressives have become secular, but are otherwise the same.
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Post by phludowin on Nov 29, 2017 21:37:43 GMT
The most troubling of that bill is that parents will not be allowed to remove children from school over teachings they disagree with. Which is completely unworkable. If Australia deems that the belief of conservative Christians is so evil and destructive, then why are children allowed to stay with conservative parents in the first place? Why not take all children from conservative homes? If politicians are so convinced that conservatism is harmful to children, then it seems cruel on their part to allow children to "suffer" inside conservative religious households? If on the other hand Australia has any concern with religious freedom, then yeah, parents should be given that right. One can't have it both ways. Homophobic parents have the right to remove their children from the Australian school system. All they need to do is move to another country more in line with their values concerning homosexuality. Uganda, Saudi-Arabia and Iran come to mind.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2017 21:57:45 GMT
The most troubling of that bill is that parents will not be allowed to remove children from school over teachings they disagree with. Which is completely unworkable. If Australia deems that the belief of conservative Christians is so evil and destructive, then why are children allowed to stay with conservative parents in the first place? Why not take all children from conservative homes? If politicians are so convinced that conservatism is harmful to children, then it seems cruel on their part to allow children to "suffer" inside conservative religious households? If on the other hand Australia has any concern with religious freedom, then yeah, parents should be given that right. One can't have it both ways. Homophobic parents have the right to remove their children from the Australian school system. All they need to do is move to another country more in line with their values concerning homosexuality. Uganda, Saudi-Arabia and Iran come to mind. :-}
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Post by thefleetsin on Nov 29, 2017 22:08:26 GMT
homos hurling cake batter like spooge on a dinner platter
i once heard of a dude who mounted a huge pile of donut dough just to see if he could spooge his cream filling better than the automated machine his boss trained him to use.
of course word got around of his pastry abuse and said donut shop became legendary for their creme-filled maple logs.
sjw 11/29/17 inspired at this very moment in time by the seventies, oh those seventies.
from the 'boner series' of poems
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Post by THawk on Nov 29, 2017 23:02:00 GMT
The most troubling of that bill is that parents will not be allowed to remove children from school over teachings they disagree with. Which is completely unworkable. If Australia deems that the belief of conservative Christians is so evil and destructive, then why are children allowed to stay with conservative parents in the first place? Why not take all children from conservative homes? If politicians are so convinced that conservatism is harmful to children, then it seems cruel on their part to allow children to "suffer" inside conservative religious households? If on the other hand Australia has any concern with religious freedom, then yeah, parents should be given that right. One can't have it both ways. Homophobic parents have the right to remove their children from the Australian school system. All they need to do is move to another country more in line with their values concerning homosexuality. Uganda, Saudi-Arabia and Iran come to mind. Even though your reply is sarcastic and hostile, it demonstrates the logistical failure in this line of thinking. And even your extreme example doesn't work on any level. First of all, no, there are things such as visas and work permits, some of which are extremely hard to get, one can't just move countries like that. And second of all....if you think that conservative beliefs are so toxic, you would really allow a child to be taken to Uganda and, I assume "brainwashed"? Is that not, based on your understanding, abhorrently evil and child abuse? Why are you not advocating for laws to save and take innocent children from their 'evil' parents?
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Post by scienceisgod on Nov 30, 2017 1:08:24 GMT
Homophobic parents have the right to remove their children from the Australian school system. All they need to do is move to another country more in line with their values concerning homosexuality. Uganda, Saudi-Arabia and Iran come to mind. :-} Isn’t same sex marriage still not legal in Australia?
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Post by gadreel on Nov 30, 2017 1:14:31 GMT
Isn’t same sex marriage still not legal in Australia? Only technically, the law is about to change though.
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Post by goz on Nov 30, 2017 2:11:19 GMT
No, you are quite wrong. Refusing to bake someone a wedding cake purely on the grounds of them being gay is discrimination in its worst form. In this country, it is also illegal. The fact that you can't see this means the rest of your argument is problematic, and frankly ridiculous. Discrimination is not at all subjective, as it forms part of the legislature. Edit: and update with breaking news just come through on my phone that the new law in Australia for same sex marriage has just got through our upper house(Senate) by a huge majority and ruling out amendments for religious exemptions, except for ministers of religion and churches who have demonstrated that it is against their religion to marry gay people on their premises. All secular marriage celebrants must perform them, and any discrimination against gay coupes is illegal. Yay. Good sense prevails. The most troubling of that bill is that parents will not be allowed to remove children from school over teachings they disagree with. Which is completely unworkable. If Australia deems that the belief of conservative Christians is so evil and destructive, then why are children allowed to stay with conservative parents in the first place? Why not take all children from conservative homes? If politicians are so convinced that conservatism is harmful to children, then it seems cruel on their part to allow children to "suffer" inside conservative religious households? If on the other hand Australia has any concern with religious freedom, then yeah, parents should be given that right. One can't have it both ways. You, like other Conservative Christians, have a habit of confusing 'education' with brainwashing. In Australia we try to educate ALL children to be able to think for themselves, research, discuss controversial issues and many of our previously termed 'religious' studies are now designated 'Ethics and Morals' classes where more general topics, including world religions, society, sexual orientation, government, life skills and basic philosophy are in the curriculum, age appropriate. Conservative Christians rail at their children being more broadly educated in this way as they fear that their kids might actually learn these things and break free of the brainwashing of their parents. We are a secular, religiously tolerant, progressive society.
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Post by THawk on Nov 30, 2017 2:54:07 GMT
The most troubling of that bill is that parents will not be allowed to remove children from school over teachings they disagree with. Which is completely unworkable. If Australia deems that the belief of conservative Christians is so evil and destructive, then why are children allowed to stay with conservative parents in the first place? Why not take all children from conservative homes? If politicians are so convinced that conservatism is harmful to children, then it seems cruel on their part to allow children to "suffer" inside conservative religious households? If on the other hand Australia has any concern with religious freedom, then yeah, parents should be given that right. One can't have it both ways. You, like other Conservative Christians, have a habit of confusing 'education' with brainwashing. In Australia we try to educate ALL children to be able to think for themselves, research, discuss controversial issues and many of our previously termed 'religious' studies are now designated 'Ethics and Morals' classes where more general topics, including world religions, society, sexual orientation, government, life skills and basic philosophy are in the curriculum, age appropriate. Conservative Christians rail at their children being more broadly educated in this way as they fear that their kids might actually learn these things and break free of the brainwashing of their parents. We are a secular, religiously tolerant, progressive society. I am not a conservative in any way, shape, or form. I just think you either have religious freedom, or you don't. Your head is so far up your ass you can only differentiate between your tribe and all others who you automatically brand as enemies, because you cannot stand anyone to have a different opinion. That is what true intolerance is. And your defense of western education is a testament to that. Western education teaches children that the only thing that matters is carnal desires and material pleasures, while ignoring the non-material and the eternal. That is why so many young people are atheists these days. Not because they "think for themselves" and they've been "enlightened," but because hedonism is injected into their veins and they become resistant to anything that tries to tell them there's more to existence. It's a powerful drug. The fruits of western education btw is a society rife with sexual abuse, perversion, and income inequality. And again, once again, the question remains unanswered. If you find conservative Christians so insanely damaging to their own children (one could hardly imagine worse things than "brainwashing"), then what kind of monster are if you don't demand for laws to take these children off their parents? If your "enemies" are that despicable, surely you must save the most innocent in society from them? Send in the army, raid homes? Surely brainwashing a child is a hell of a lot worse than not baking a cake?
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Post by goz on Nov 30, 2017 4:17:28 GMT
You, like other Conservative Christians, have a habit of confusing 'education' with brainwashing. In Australia we try to educate ALL children to be able to think for themselves, research, discuss controversial issues and many of our previously termed 'religious' studies are now designated 'Ethics and Morals' classes where more general topics, including world religions, society, sexual orientation, government, life skills and basic philosophy are in the curriculum, age appropriate. Conservative Christians rail at their children being more broadly educated in this way as they fear that their kids might actually learn these things and break free of the brainwashing of their parents. We are a secular, religiously tolerant, progressive society. I am not a conservative in any way, shape, or form. I just think you either have religious freedom, or you don't. Your head is so far up your ass you can only differentiate between your tribe and all others who you automatically brand as enemies, because you cannot stand anyone to have a different opinion. That is what true intolerance is. And your defense of western education is a testament to that. Western education teaches children that the only thing that matters is carnal desires and material pleasures, while ignoring the non-material and the eternal. That is why so many young people are atheists these days. Not because they "think for themselves" and they've been "enlightened," but because hedonism is injected into their veins and they become resistant to anything that tries to tell them there's more to existence. It's a powerful drug. The fruits of western education btw is a society rife with sexual abuse, perversion, and income inequality. And again, once again, the question remains unanswered. If you find conservative Christians so insanely damaging to their own children (one could hardly imagine worse things than "brainwashing"), then what kind of monster are if you don't demand for laws to take these children off their parents? If your "enemies" are that despicable, surely you must save the most innocent in society from them? Send in the army, raid homes? Surely brainwashing a child is a hell of a lot worse than not baking a cake? All Western countries that I know of, have religious freedom, including yours and mine. No-one is prevented from believing in the religion of their choice. What we don't have is conservative religious people demanding exemptions from anti-discrimination laws, and their 'God given' right to bigotry. It is a case of do what you want in your religion as long as it does not adversely affect another person. You are quite entitled to an opinion as long as your don't project that onto someone else in your actions in the name of that opinion especially if is religious bigotry. That is abject nonsense about education. Why would anyone want to take children away from their parents unless it was a case of child abuse? They don't, except in the limited cases such as harmful abusive cults and where JW's refuse treatment for their children and let them die. You are full of shit!
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Post by faustus5 on Nov 30, 2017 11:44:35 GMT
I am not a conservative in any way, shape, or form. You aren't fooling anyone, pumpkin. A. You couldn't document the first party of that bullshit if your life depended on it. B. Educators would have no problem teaching about "the non-material and the eternal" if there were some evidence for them that was relevant. Good luck finding some. Until then, educators will stick to reality. Sorry if that drives wingnuts like you crazy. You can certainly document income inequality, but not any of the rest of your deluded bullshit. And you certainly couldn't link Western education to any of it. Conservative Christians certainly are damaging their children, but that is the price one pays for freedom. They can always be woken up once exposed to other ideas outside of the home, and that happens quite often. One can't expect an ignorant conservative such as yourself to understand any of this.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 13:07:04 GMT
I am not a conservative in any way, shape, or form. You aren't fooling anyone, pumpkin. A. You couldn't document the first party of that bullshit if your life depended on it. B. Educators would have no problem teaching about "the non-material and the eternal" if there were some evidence for them that was relevant. Good luck finding some. Until then, educators will stick to reality. Sorry if that drives wingnuts like you crazy. You can certainly document income inequality, but not any of the rest of your deluded bullshit. And you certainly couldn't link Western education to any of it. Conservative Christians certainly are damaging their children, but that is the price one pays for freedom. They can always be woken up once exposed to other ideas outside of the home, and that happens quite often. One can't expect an ignorant conservative such as yourself to understand any of this. :'-}
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Post by THawk on Nov 30, 2017 14:12:26 GMT
I am not a conservative in any way, shape, or form. I just think you either have religious freedom, or you don't. Your head is so far up your ass you can only differentiate between your tribe and all others who you automatically brand as enemies, because you cannot stand anyone to have a different opinion. That is what true intolerance is. And your defense of western education is a testament to that. Western education teaches children that the only thing that matters is carnal desires and material pleasures, while ignoring the non-material and the eternal. That is why so many young people are atheists these days. Not because they "think for themselves" and they've been "enlightened," but because hedonism is injected into their veins and they become resistant to anything that tries to tell them there's more to existence. It's a powerful drug. The fruits of western education btw is a society rife with sexual abuse, perversion, and income inequality. And again, once again, the question remains unanswered. If you find conservative Christians so insanely damaging to their own children (one could hardly imagine worse things than "brainwashing"), then what kind of monster are if you don't demand for laws to take these children off their parents? If your "enemies" are that despicable, surely you must save the most innocent in society from them? Send in the army, raid homes? Surely brainwashing a child is a hell of a lot worse than not baking a cake? All Western countries that I know of, have religious freedom, including yours and mine. No-one is prevented from believing in the religion of their choice. What we don't have is conservative religious people demanding exemptions from anti-discrimination laws, and their 'God given' right to bigotry. It is a case of do what you want in your religion as long as it does not adversely affect another person. You are quite entitled to an opinion as long as your don't project that onto someone else in your actions in the name of that opinion especially if is religious bigotry. That is abject nonsense about education. Why would anyone want to take children away from their parents unless it was a case of child abuse? They don't, except in the limited cases such as harmful abusive cults and where JW's refuse treatment for their children and let them die. You are full of shit! Again, your only definition of religious freedom seems to be "allowed to believe what they want." Which is ridiculous. By that definition freakin' Saudi Arabia has religious freedom. The hypocrisy is that you seem to believe conservatives are so evil and need to be fined if not jailed by so-called "anti-discrimination laws," for things as absurd as not baking a SSM wedding cake....yet it's perfectly legal for these "evil conservatives" to "brainwash" their children at home? Is not the latter a hell of a lot more in need of government intervention than the former? Except you know that your demonization of people falls apart if you are called to put the logistics of what you believe to a test.
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