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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 12, 2017 19:11:33 GMT
And thats what James Mangold is concerened about. Who cares?
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 12, 2017 19:15:31 GMT
Quote author=" ThatGuy " source="/post/1163758/thread" timestamp="1513096316"]Restrained? Yes these movies feel restrained. Afraid to delve deeper. Tonys PTSD is watered down because he acts pretty much like his normal self talking with the same tone. He gets over it with ease in comparison with Xaviers depression/addiction in DOFP where the film allows the character of Xavier freedom to visibly show hes hit rock bottom with a complete flip in his behaviour and tone. The level of depth between the 2 is night and day. How great would it have been to keep the Mandarin as he portrayed in the first half of IM3, a cold blooded self-proclaimed teacher wanting to exploit Starks PTSD and anxiety of not being able to control threats and really punish him, maybe even killing Pepper. But this is what i mean, they turn his character into a joke for laughs half way through and the film never recovers its tone from then on. Just a cheap way to create fake emotion for half an hour before he pops back again alive. And its with others like Coulson too. Lack of stakes because audience gets used to the double bluff technique and cant be emotionally invested. In Cap 1 the bedrock of the movie is Caps romantic angle with Peggy. But in Winter Soldier he gets 5 minute scene with her. Then shes killed off screen in CW. The moments that should be very emotional are not given any meat. They are glossed over. Compare it to the young Xavier meets Old xavier unite scene. Its written and directed with a lot more substance than anything between Cap n Peggy after The First Avenger. The directors could have removed the Cap kisses Agent 23 scene which was played for jokes and actually give us a meanginful scene between Cap and Peggy before she passed. Again this is lack of stakes. It didnt feel like the airport scene had any lasting or serious consequence if the film ends with Tony looking mild, Rhodey laughing his disability of and a Tony Stank joke inbetween. [/quote] So you just going to gloss over the panic attacks Tony was having through out the movie? Also the fact that he got over it when he realized that building things was what was keeping the panic attacks away. And there was a lot more panic attacks in the movie besides what is shown in that video. Xavier got over his depression and drug addiction with no outside influence. There was nothing besides a pep talk to get rid of the chemicals and alcohol that was in his system. He just jumped on Cerebro and that was it. He didn't go to any kind of counseling for it. You see, it was time to end the movie so they needed Xavier to have his powers. Tony didn't need to get over his PTSD for the movie to conclude. They could have resolved that in another movie. Xavier's drug addiction, alcoholism and depression was shallow. But nobody except the kid and Rhodey knew about his PTSD. It was a personal thing. Why would they have them use it against him? Hell, Magneto and Mystique didn't use Xavier's weakness against him. Why would they kill Pepper? See this is what I mean. Why? It would serve no purpose but to have a dead character that they couldn't use anymore. All they'd do is bring in a replacement Pepper. And they turned his character into a joke because he wasn't the villain. You guys were crying for the Mandarin and they gave him to you, but then you all got butt hurt when they trolled you. Didn't like being trolled, huh? You got emotional when Coulson and Fury "died"? Aww. Did you also get emotional when Magneto's dead on arrival family died too? I mean, you had to know they were dead the second you saw them right? Did you get emotional when Jean "died" in X2? What about Xavier in X3? Wait, they brought those characters back by the end of those movies too, didn't they? I mean how did Xavier get into a body that looked exactly like himself? Oh twin brother. So he's suppose to be in love with Peggy forever? Yes, he has love for her, but she is from a different time than him and her mind is gone. Hell, Winter Soldier was all about him moving on with his life. So many scenes of him talking to Black Widow about finding a date and you have Sharon coming into his life. Him kissing Sharon is showing that he's moving on. The kiss itself wasn't played for a joke, but the expressions of his 2 best friends was. They were the audience in that scene because everyone was thinking the same thing. It was a "finally" moment. How is that a lack of stakes? The guy can't walk on his own anymore? Have you ever heard the expression "laughing to keep from crying"? Rhodey had his heart to heart talk about doing it again if he could go back. And the Tony Stank joke was a tension breaker. These are adventure movies after all.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 12, 2017 19:21:28 GMT
But they are grown up toys... Looking back on it, it makes sense why there was hairy large men that always hang around the toy aisle when I was a child. They wanted that rare Wolverine.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 12, 2017 21:00:16 GMT
Yeah, they're going to incorporate an R-rated Deadpool into the MCU with the Avengers. I totally see that happening. Not remotely what I meant. Pay attention. And keep your sarcasm to yourself. You really think Disney can't just un-defunct Touchstone to produce a Deadpool film that's separate from the MCU? Do you think they will make a Deadpool movie that doesn't connect to the MCU? Do you understand what I meant now? Will you ever grow up and stop arguing with people on these boards who question Marvel/Disney in any way?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 21:02:56 GMT
Not remotely what I meant. Pay attention. And keep your sarcasm to yourself. You really think Disney can't just un-defunct Touchstone to produce a Deadpool film that's separate from the MCU? Do you think they will make a Deadpool movie that doesn't connect to the MCU? Do you understand what I meant now? Will you ever grow up and stop arguing with people on these boards who question Marvel/Disney in any way? Yes, I do, because there's money to be made on an R rated madcap comedy film like Deadpool. And you're not in any position to tell someone else to grow up.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Dec 12, 2017 21:07:43 GMT
BTW, who's James Mangold?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 12, 2017 21:08:53 GMT
Do you think they will make a Deadpool movie that doesn't connect to the MCU? Do you understand what I meant now? Will you ever grow up and stop arguing with people on these boards who question Marvel/Disney in any way? Yes, I do, because there's money to be made on an R rated madcap comedy film like Deadpool. And you're not in any position to tell someone else to grow up. Do you have me confused with someone else? Which one of us is known as a board defender who goes back and forth with DC trolls endlessly on these boards? Hit with another eyeroll emoji. And hey, I want you to be right on Deadpool, and to be honest I don't think the character needs to be R. The bottom line is the studio took risks making R rated material, and I'd have to say it was the best stuff they ever did with the X- franchise. I don't understand why Marvel would regain the rights to one of their most iconic characters and not try to merge him into their other cash cows. It goes against their MO completely.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 21:10:08 GMT
BTW, who's James Mangold? The director of 'Logan' and many other films.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Dec 12, 2017 21:11:48 GMT
BTW, who's James Mangold? The director of 'Logan' and many other films. OK. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 21:13:09 GMT
Yes, I do, because there's money to be made on an R rated madcap comedy film like Deadpool. And you're not in any position to tell someone else to grow up. Do you have me confused with someone else? Which one of us is known as a board defender who goes back and forth with DC trolls endlessly on these boards? Hit with another eyeroll emoji. And hey, I want you to be right on Deadpool, and to be honest I don't think the character needs to be R. The bottom line is the studio took risks making R rated material, and I'd have to say it was the best stuff they ever did with the X- franchise. I don't understand why Marvel would regain the rights to one of their most iconic characters and not try to merge him into their other cash cows. It goes against their MO completely. And? Its my right to present counterarguments where I see fit. Don't like it? Don't read it. They did not take a risk with R rated material. The film was made with a shoe-string budget and they only did it to shut up Ryan Reynolds up, because he wouldn't stop bothering them about making a proper Deadpool film for years. They just took credit for it when Reynolds' pet project paid off. They have enough new stuff to play with with the acquisition of all the characters they previously didn't have access to that they don't need to merge Deadpool into it.
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Post by charzhino on Dec 12, 2017 21:20:00 GMT
Xavier got over his depression and drug addiction with no outside influence. There was nothing besides a pep talk to get rid of the chemicals and alcohol that was in his system. He just jumped on Cerebro and that was it. He didn't go to any kind of counseling for it. You see, it was time to end the movie so they needed Xavier to have his powers. No, he got his powers back because its a completion of his arc in the film which is the main plot theme, to regain his strength through the human power of hope which is also a important message in real life too. Tonys PTSD could have done a similar message but nope they watered it down to the point its not that pivotal in the plot as you said yourself. In fact the whole thing is a joke anyway as the after credit scene hes telling it to Banner who falls asleep. Stakes. And to make Tony learn a damn lesson for once that his reckless actions must bear consequences. Just like Rachel Dawes death had a emotional reaction in the character of Bruce Wayne and made question his whole intention of being Batman. Plot devices like these add extra layers of realism and gravity to these kind of films. As I said the MCU is restraining in that aspect. A lot of people would have preferred the Mandarin from the opening. Emotion as in a reaction thats not just laughing and wowing constantly throughout a comic movie. Coulson and Fury purposefully fake died. Thats cheating your audience. The X characters that died at the time was a genuine decision and wasnt some "over arching" plotline. They could have utilized Peggy a lot more or given a proper send off in Civil War that maybe gave Steve a reason to have more conviction in his actions and decisions in Civil War. A scene like in Spiderman 2 where Aunt May inspired Peter with, I believe there us a hero in all of us speech. Or conversely in Dark Knight Rises when Alfred tries to talk Bruce out of returning as Batman. Or old xavier inspiring young Xavier. A scene between Peggy telling Steve to stick to his beliefs or something similar would have been priceless. Oh and Steve has very little on screen history and zero chemistry with Sharon. The scene was 100% a comedy gag.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 12, 2017 23:14:11 GMT
That's a strange comment to make. People are asking for a R rated movie for specific reasons, not to randomly see an anal sex scene. That's completely irrelevant to what they're asking for. Is it? Fans were all "YAY BOOBIES!" over Deadpool, so sex clearly plays a part in what they want. And the MCU keeps getting criticized for not being "grounded" or "Human" enough. Teen Sex is grounded and human. The R Rating is being called for because of EVERYTHING it has to offer, including hardcore sex scenes. Unless these people are hypocritical prudes. The people who like the FoX-Men and DP movies are calling out the MCU, and they aren't saying "They won't make 1 or 2 R Rated films!" just "R Rated" films. That means they want it to be wholly R Rated, anything less is "Kiddie" after all. I dunno, an R rating isn't going to make up for a poor story. I enjoy those flicks for sleazy reasons, but I wouldn't consider any of them good movies (except maybe the first). It's a movie series set in space, of course it'll have aliens!
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 12, 2017 23:26:07 GMT
Yes these movies feel restrained. Afraid to delve deeper. IE, they don't spend the whole movie moping around. So he fights it instead of letting it cripple him? That's how some people deal with PTSD. It Tony longer to get over it than Xavier. Xavier got over it in ONE scene. No, Tony is just proactive while Xavier is reactive and refuses to deal with it until an external force makes him. Oh yeah, kill the love interest to motivate the man. How forward thinking. No, they deliberately played a prank on the audience and some of them are just too sour to admit they were fooled. Right, like how X-Men left Xavier dead after X3...oh wait. They're given plenty of depth and time, Peggy and Cap's lives merely diverged and they were never able to resume. That was the point. It is not, it just feels deeper than it is because people take it as a "passing the torch" scene from Stewart to McAvoy. It's just Old Xavier saying "Man up". So once again, the characters are proactive and refuse to let their injuries or setbacks define them. That's the biggest difference between the XCU and MCU. In the XCU the leads are mainly passive and reactive, while in the MCU characters are proactive. Always.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 12, 2017 23:32:17 GMT
No, he got his powers back because its a completion of his arc in the film which is the main plot theme, to regain his strength through the human power of hope which is also a important message in real life too. He had no arc in DOFP, he was merely back to the way he was at the end of FC. The whole thing was a contrivance to keep him from using his powers to end things easily because they were too incompetent to think of anything else. It was the reason he was so jittery throughout and isolating himself from everyone. Oh God, this nonsense again about how the ONLY way to have stakes is to kill people and treat them like objects. It was just as demeaning in TDK then too. Because they wanted a movie about the villain, rather than the hero. Doesn't matter, they still wussed out and brought them all back. I guess you must hate Back to the Future for doing the same thing like 3 times. They did utilize Peggy, they gave her her own show and storylines. And her funeral and the speech Sharon gave (which came from Peggy) were a source of inspiration for Steve. Oh, so you need to be spoonfed? No, it was a homage to his relationship with her in the comics.
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Post by scabab on Dec 13, 2017 7:57:43 GMT
Is it? Fans were all "YAY BOOBIES!" over Deadpool, so sex clearly plays a part in what they want. And the MCU keeps getting criticized for not being "grounded" or "Human" enough. Teen Sex is grounded and human. Fans were happy because it meant we wouldn't get a restricted version of Deadpool, a character who should never be restricted in anyway. He's a vulgar, crass, violent, crude mouthed pyscho and people were glad that's what we were going to get. Nobody has ever complained about the lack of or wanted a sex scene between Peter Parker and Mary Jane. Whose they? Like a handful of people on this message board? That doesn't account for anything. People who want a R rated movie would be the same fans that like Daredevil or The Punisher for what it is. They aren't good but they'd be even worse, infact they wouldn't have even been successful enough to have so many of them, if they were PG-13 movies where you wouldn't even see the graphic deaths which is the only reason why people watch those movies.
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Post by charzhino on Dec 13, 2017 11:15:55 GMT
IE, they don't spend the whole movie moping around. No, they're just restrained in the intensity of showing scenes with mature themes. Having him truly struggle to cope and then recover, like other successful superhero movies have exhibited, would have been a bolder and more satisfying arc for Tony. But MCU are afraid of going that far to not make IM look too weak and fragile i.e its watered down. American Sniper is how PTSD is realistically presented. Tony got over it when the Madarin turned out to be a dud. Stark was genuinely spooked and on edge before that moment, like the hot aired interview he gave about taking on the Mandarin. It was aiding his PTSD as he felt helpless. Thats why sticking with the real Mandarin and challenging Tony to overcome his anxiety and fear would have been better. But yeah lets not make "the villain the star of the show and compliment the heros journey ". Lets make him a comedy gag instead. Xavier met his FUTURE SELF. You're underplaying the importance of this and making it sound as if he just met a councillor. Rubbish. Tony was reacting to the suicide bombings and Mandarins teachings. It could have been anyone close to him. Happy Hogan for example. No stakes im afraid, these are superhero action movies not a lightearted sci-fi comedy like Back to the future. IM3 dealt with terrorism and a direct threat to Tony. He escapes unscathed, with no one close by him hurt. Its unrealistic and the audience starts becoming conditioned that none of these characters are actually in any danger when you keep using the fake death card like Pepper at the end. A 5 minute scene in 2 films. Wow. These are just words. Every superhero is reactive. Otherwise theyd be no villain or threat. And no, Stark creating ultron doesnt count as proactive it counts as reckless.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 13, 2017 12:15:34 GMT
Fans were happy because it meant we wouldn't get a restricted version of Deadpool, a character who should never be restricted in anyway. Stanley Ipkiss in "The Mask" was the same way in the original comics (in fact, he's pretty much what Deadpool's personality was based on) and no one minded the changes made in his movie. What, you never heard any of the "He's too kiddie!" complaints about MCU Spider-Man? Anyone who says the MCU is Kiddie. Not "mature" or vulgar enough. The whole "MCU is pussy for not being rated R!" thing didn't take off until Deadpool, which means they want THAT kind of content. So every MCU movie should contain the same level of sex and gore no matter what the character. Otherwise it's "kiddie". And it proves having an R Rating alone isn't enough to make a movie good.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 13, 2017 12:29:03 GMT
No, they're just restrained in the intensity of showing scenes with mature themes. There's nothing "mature" about Xavier moping around wrapped up in his own misery and doing nothing to get out of it until the plot says so. What, like how Peter pathetically gave up being Spidey solely for MJ in SM2? That's almost as bad as how unheroic Superman was in SMII. I found that film irresponsible and ignored the greater context of what led his character to end up that way. He never really "got over it", he merely found out who the real enemy was and what his actual plans were so it was easier to focus. He'd have done the same if Kingsley had been the Mandarin. Hell his mental issues never really went away, them still being there is why Wanda was able to mess with his head so well in AOU. It still doesn't change that he COMPLETELY got over 10 years of booze and drugs, if the movie had shown him physically in pain because his body was still messed up from how he abused it despite his mental resolve then it'd be more believable. And there's no sign of any damage in Apocalypse either. With Tony his mental issues are always a part of him. He proactively was trying stuff in building more suits. Yeah, he reacted to the Mandarin but refused to just let him keep bombing and proactively investigated. If this were Batman he'd just sit around waiting for Joker to bomb again before investigating. BTTF dealt with Marty wanting to prevent Doc's death after witnessing it and then keeping his whole family from being erased from history including himself. Those stakes are enough. Just like most X-Men movies then. And the Agent Carter TV show, and mentions of how Steve feels about it in Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Age of Ultron. It is proactive, it just backfired.
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Post by charzhino on Dec 13, 2017 13:26:13 GMT
There's nothing "mature" about Xavier moping around wrapped up in his own misery] There is. Its not afraid to fully show the leader of the Xmen and the almost infallible Patrick Stewart depiction in the OT and how broken a man like that can become from depression and addiction and losing everyone close to you including you're dreams of building a school to shelter runaway mutants. And the same can be said for Howletts arc in Logan, Magnetos arc in Apocalypse, Bruce in Dark Knight/Rises, Parker in Spiderman 2, Clark in Man of Steel, even to a degree with Tony Stark himself in IM1 and 2 before Disney watered it down. He wasn't jittering or trembling after the Mandarin was revealed to be a actor. So he finds the real enemy and defeats him like every other superhero cliched ending. Imagine if the Mandarin exploited Starks worst fears and psychologically crippled him, as he was too small to physically compete with IM, like Joker did to Batman. Use a more beefed up version of Zemo and destroy Tony from the inside. But I guess the usual big CGI fight scene at the end vs a forgetabble villain is the safe option for the MCU. Its a couple of days after he meets his future self until he stops Mistique. He probably had withdrawal problems in the 10 year gap afterwards. That involves time travel though which has completely different dynamic. False equivalence.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 13, 2017 14:50:56 GMT
There is. Its not afraid to fully show the leader of the Xmen and the almost infallible Patrick Stewart depiction in the OT and how broken a man like that can become from depression and addiction and losing everyone close to you including you're dreams of building a school to shelter runaway mutants. Except you want to do that, you need to show how he got that way and how he pulls out of it. They wuss out and have the 10 year gap serve as the explanation (lazy) and then have him get over it in one single scene where he gets a pep talk, and then there's no sign he was ever a drug addict or an alcoholic after that. Lazy. Don't get me started on how contrived THAT whole set up was. Blech. Bruce was totally passive in those movies. Oh yeah, the guy who gave it all up because he was upset over MJ. Except Tony gets HIMSELF out of it. Yeah, once Killian explained everything Tony was finally able to focus. That's one way of dealing with PTSD. Keeping focus to ignore the fear and pain. Joker did what he did because he was written as Omnipotent and Omniscient. Lazy writing. Tony's biggest enemy has always been himself, and no one else. Heck, the whole point of IM3 was him starting to realize that he should stop trying to control everything and focus on being with people he cares about. Then Wanda messed that all up by screwing with his brain. But then again, X-Men keeps contriving ways to get Magneto back in the story so this is forgivable. Especially since it had bigger impact than Magneto's actions. Cop out. Oh, no it's not. Stakes are stakes.
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