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Post by sostie on Apr 5, 2018 23:46:16 GMT
Bottom line: Cap didn't want to sign the Accords because Cap is a tyrant who believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings instead of having to answer to the people for their reckless actions that directly killed many innocent civilians. Imagine this... Gamora: A god-like being named Thanos plans to wipe out half the universe using Infinity Stones. We need you to help stop him! Tony: Let's wait for the U.N. panel's decision. Gamora: We don't have time to wait! Tony: I signed a piece of paper saying I would wait! You go stop Thanos, I'll catch up with you... maybe, if I'm allowed. Considering the content of many of his posts in the past..yes he probably would prefer it. If they also showed all those concerned filling forms, applying for, and displying travel permits, gun licences, permission to fly in certain air spaces, notes from their mums etc he's be in ecstacy
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 5, 2018 23:53:45 GMT
Imagine this... Gamora: A god-like being named Thanos plans to wipe out half the universe using Infinity Stones. We need you to help stop him! Tony: Let's wait for the U.N. panel's decision. Gamora: We don't have time to wait! Tony: I signed a piece of paper saying I would wait! You go stop Thanos, I'll catch up with you... maybe, if I'm allowed. Considering the content of many of his posts in the past..yes he probably would prefer it. If they also showed all those concerned filling forms, applying for, and displying travel permits, gun licences, permission to fly in certain air spaces, notes from their mums etc he's be in ecstacy He also thinks it's okay for Superman to continually thumb his nose at US authority like he did in MOS.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 6, 2018 4:11:51 GMT
"Retire" = Go under house arrest, most likely. At the very least, be under heavy observation for the rest of their lives. Doesn't want to be a slave, nor sell the other Avengers out either. You want tyranny, go to DC.whoa, WHOA, WHOOOOOOOAAA! What'chu talkin' 'bout, Willis? WTF is there tyranny in DC? I gotta hear this... There is no tyranny in DC. It's the exact opposite. Superman is the most powerful person on the planet, but he doesn't want to be a ruler and he respects the authority of the people. That's why Superman surrendered to the military even though they had no power to force him to. And that's why Superman appeared before a Congressional hearing when summoned even though Congress had no power to force him to. The best example of DC heroes showing that they're not tyrants and that they respect the authority of the people is Season 2 of Young Justice. The Justice League were accused of creating a disturbance and causing damages on another planet. The JL agreed to surrender themselves to the authorities and stood trial for those charges. Also, this season of The Flash. Barry Allen was framed by Clifford DeVoe. Unlike Bucky (who really did commit the violent and brutal murders of Howard and Maria Stark), Barry Allen was actually innocent and didn't kill anyone but Barry Allen didn't flee from the authorities like cowardly Bucky and Cap did and instead stood trial and eventually got his name cleared in a court of law. By contrast, in Winter Soldier, Black Widow arrogantly tells Congress that they can't arrest her because she's an Avenger and the Avengers are more powerful than Congress and thus the Avengers are above the law and don't have to answer to the people. And of course, Cap spits on the Constitution that he swore an oath to defend and aids and abets a double murderer, Bucky, to flee from the authorities because Cap doesn't respect the authority of the people and believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, the Avengers are above the law and should rule over the people like tyrants rather than be judged by the people.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 6, 2018 4:35:16 GMT
Civil War is an awful movie because there's just no way for any sensible or reasonable person to support Cap's side. Cap is saying that, despite killing many innocent civilians, the Avengers should not be subject to any government oversight because "the safest hands are our own." 1st, it would be like the cops or the FBI saying after a shootout with armed bank robbers in which several innocent bystanders are killed by police gunfire saying "Well, we killed some innocent bystanders, but that's collateral damage. We stopped the bad guys so the deaths of those innocent bystanders were for the greater good. And we should not be subjected to any oversight or disciplinary actions." 2nd, the safest hands are not their own. The Avengers just killed many innocent civilians. How was that safe for those innocent civilians killed by the Avengers? It was so clear that the Avengers fucked up and needed some kind of oversight, but Cap didn't want oversight because Cap wants to be a tyrant and rule over the people instead of answering to the people because Cap feels that the Avengers are more powerful than ordinary people and should be rulers over ordinary people rather than have to answer to ordinary people. Cap would never say "but that's collateral damage" as if those people didn't matter obviously so you mis-characterize him with that. Of course it bothers the cops when someone dies during a chase. But if they just let the bad guys go a lot more people would be hurt ultimately. Just like how a lot more people would have been hurt had the Avengers not acted. We make trade offs. By refusing to sign the Accords and be held accountable for his actions. Cap is indeed saying "the deaths of those innocent civilians are collateral damage". If the cops or the FBI got into a shootout with armed bank robbers in which several innocent bystanders are killed by police gunfire, regardless of whether or not it was for the greater good (i.e. stopping the armed bank robbers), whoever gave the authorization for the cops to engage in the shootout would still have answer to the people and the media over his decision to authorize it. But Cap refuses to even answer to the people for the deaths of many innocent civilians caused by the reckless actions of the Avengers. Instead, Cap wants to continue to unilaterally make those decisions and not have to answer to the people for it. So Cap is effectively saying the lives of those innocent civilians killed by the reckless actions of the Avengers didn't matter at all because what the Avengers did what they thought was best for everyone and those deaths were just collateral damage. It's obvious that Cap, who wants no limitations or restrictions on his authority, wants to be the supreme authority over the people because he's more powerful than the people and believes that the Avengers should decide what's best for the people and not have to answer to the people. That's often the 1st steop towards tyranny, and that's what Cap has become - a tyrant.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 6, 2018 4:45:44 GMT
Bottom line: Cap didn't want to sign the Accords because Cap is a tyrant who believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings instead of having to answer to the people for their reckless actions that directly killed many innocent civilians. You saw The Winter Soldier, right? Steve Rogers: Tony, you *chose* to do that. If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us?You saw Civil War, right? Tony: If you don't want to sign the Accords, then you can retire and you're free to walk away and not be forced to go somewhere you don't want to. Steve: No, I'm more powerful than the people so I should rule over the people like a King rather than have to answer to the people or take orders from the people. [/b]We may not be perfect but the safest hands are still our own.[/quote] Tell that to the families of the people you Avengers killed with your reckless actions. How safe were those innocent civilians from your hands? Bottom line: Tony: Steve, you lost any argument you had for unlimited and unrestricted autonomy when your team killed many innocent civilians. I realize that you considered those innocent civilians as collateral damage and you don't give a shit about those innocent civilians that your team killed with your reckless actions, but those were human beings with families and their families certainly don't think your hands are safe at all. So quit being fucking coward and man up to your reckless actions instead of trying to be the prick tyrant that you are.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Apr 6, 2018 7:29:10 GMT
You saw The Winter Soldier, right? Steve Rogers: Tony, you *chose* to do that. If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us?You saw Civil War, right? Tony: If you don't want to sign the Accords, then you can retire and you're free to walk away and not be forced to go somewhere you don't want to. Steve: No, I'm more powerful than the people so I should rule over the people like a King rather than have to answer to the people or take orders from the people. [/b]We may not be perfect but the safest hands are still our own.[/quote] Tell that to the families of the people you Avengers killed with your reckless actions. How safe were those innocent civilians from your hands? Bottom line: Tony: Steve, you lost any argument you had for unlimited and unrestricted autonomy when your team killed many innocent civilians. I realize that you considered those innocent civilians as collateral damage and you don't give a shit about those innocent civilians that your team killed with your reckless actions, but those were human beings with families and their families certainly don't think your hands are safe at all. So quit being fucking coward and man up to your reckless actions instead of trying to be the prick tyrant that you are.[/quote] You should do stand up comedy.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 6, 2018 11:41:37 GMT
whoa, WHOA, WHOOOOOOOAAA! What'chu talkin' 'bout, Willis? WTF is there tyranny in DC? I gotta hear this... There is no tyranny in DC. It's the exact opposite. Superman is the most powerful person on the planet, but he doesn't want to be a ruler and he respects the authority of the people. No he doesn't. He faked surrendering so he could in on the base to the Top Brass without fighting his way in. He was practically mocking them, and then once again at the end of the movie when he destroyed that drone and millions of dollars of Army Property. He only did that to humor them, if he'd known they were considering kryptonite weapons or anything that could hurt him he'd never have turned up. The Feds tried to murder Bucky and weren't going to treat him fairly. Barry knew he'd be treated fairly, also his writing sucks and they were never going to send him to jail. No, she was just calling them out on their ingratitude. She was willing to be arrested, but they chose to let her go because...well, she was right and they realized they were ingrates. Is more of a hero than DCEU Batman and Superman ever will be.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 6, 2018 11:42:19 GMT
Cap would never say "but that's collateral damage" as if those people didn't matter obviously so you mis-characterize him with that. Of course it bothers the cops when someone dies during a chase. But if they just let the bad guys go a lot more people would be hurt ultimately. Just like how a lot more people would have been hurt had the Avengers not acted. We make trade offs. By refusing to sign the Accords and be held accountable for his actions. Cap is Refusing slavery.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 6, 2018 11:42:41 GMT
You saw The Winter Soldier, right? Steve Rogers: Tony, you *chose* to do that. If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us?You saw Civil War, right? Yes, everything BvS should've been. Cap is everything DCEU Superman should've been, someone with real character development and REAL flaws.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Apr 6, 2018 11:51:06 GMT
I think we can all agree that the accords was an idiotic idea to begin with.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Apr 6, 2018 13:43:16 GMT
You saw The Winter Soldier, right? Steve Rogers: Tony, you *chose* to do that. If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us?You saw Civil War, right? Tony: If you don't want to sign the Accords, then you can retire and you're free to walk away and not be forced to go somewhere you don't want to. Steve: No, I'm more powerful than the people so I should rule over the people like a King rather than have to answer to the people or take orders from the people. [/b]We may not be perfect but the safest hands are still our own.[/quote] Tell that to the families of the people you Avengers killed with your reckless actions. How safe were those innocent civilians from your hands? Bottom line: Tony: Steve, you lost any argument you had for unlimited and unrestricted autonomy when your team killed many innocent civilians. I realize that you considered those innocent civilians as collateral damage and you don't give a shit about those innocent civilians that your team killed with your reckless actions, but those were human beings with families and their families certainly don't think your hands are safe at all. So quit being fucking coward and man up to your reckless actions instead of trying to be the prick tyrant that you are.[/quote] Everything you just described Captain America as. They're call character flaws and development Something a retard like you wouldn't understand. Cap is more a hero than the DCEU Superman right now
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Post by Daisy on Apr 6, 2018 15:05:34 GMT
You saw The Winter Soldier, right? Steve Rogers: Tony, you *chose* to do that. If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us?You saw Civil War, right? Tony: If you don't want to sign the Accords, then you can retire and you're free to walk away and not be forced to go somewhere you don't want to. Steve: No, I'm more powerful than the people so I should rule over the people like a King rather than have to answer to the people or take orders from the people. We may not be perfect but the safest hands are still our own. Tell that to the families of the people you Avengers killed with your reckless actions. How safe were those innocent civilians from your hands? Bottom line: Tony: Steve, you lost any argument you had for unlimited and unrestricted autonomy when your team killed many innocent civilians. I realize that you considered those innocent civilians as collateral damage and you don't give a shit about those innocent civilians that your team killed with your reckless actions, but those were human beings with families and their families certainly don't think your hands are safe at all. So quit being fucking coward and man up to your reckless actions instead of trying to be the prick tyrant that you are. Well now you're just making up quotes...which is tantamount to lying...which is tantamount to CHEATING! YOU ARE A CHEATER! When has Rogers acted like a king? All the guy does is stop villains and save people. Sure some people got blown up in Nigeria, but it was still fewer deaths than what would have happened if they didn't try to stop that HYDRA group at all. Did you really just make 3 posts in a row? Aren't you supposedly some kind of software engineer? You don't know how to use the BBCode here to quote multiple people in one post?
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 6, 2018 15:55:11 GMT
If anyone acts like a King beyond control, it's the DCEU Superman and Batman.
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Post by merh on Apr 6, 2018 17:12:53 GMT
So Visions reasoning extract: ''In the 8 years since Mr. Stark announced himself as Iron Man, the number of known enhanced persons has grown exponentially. And during the same period, a number of potentially world-ending events has risen at a commensurable rate.
I'm saying there may be a causality. Our very strength invites challenge. Challenge incites conflict. And conflict... breeds catastrophe. Oversight... Oversight is not an idea that can be dismissed out of hand.''And the Avengers seem to blindly accept this and not question it. So Vision is basically saying there is conflict because super powered individuals have been increasing in recent years. So how does he go from that premise, to stating that oversight might reduce catastrophe? It wouldn't, because the current rate of super powered persons would be present and still increasing, leading to more conflict. Simply controlling them as the Accords would dictate, would not reduce conflict because the challenge would be ever present and that would lead to inevitable conflict. The only way to reduce catastrophe, is to actually reduce the number of super powered people themselves. Like gun control, less guns means less mass shooting, less catastrophe. And Visions whole ''equation'' is on the basis that causation is a result of the correlation, which is flawed in itself. A individual with a mind stone gem and super analytical ability can not even get that right. This chicken/egg argument has been running around the comicbook geek fandom for decades. Would the Chitauri had come to earth were it not for the Avengers? Would Vulture have come into being were it not for the Chitauri & then Stark being a jerk? I first saw Vision's opinion framed around Batman & his villains. Do they appear to challenge him? Would Gotham not have them if there were not a challenge in the form of Batman? So, yeah, idea has been around for decades
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Apr 6, 2018 17:53:01 GMT
whoa, WHOA, WHOOOOOOOAAA! What'chu talkin' 'bout, Willis? WTF is there tyranny in DC? I gotta hear this... I'm just messing with him, but you can exaggerate this from how Superman keeps thumbing his nose at the Military in MOS. First he "surrenders" to him but later shows he was toying with them and just did it to get to the General. Then he destroys the Drone, millions of taxpayers dollars, and basically says "You'll never control me, I'll never let you know a thing and this is what happens if you try." That's interesting, I interpret that as standing up against tyranny.
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Post by charzhino on Apr 6, 2018 18:08:39 GMT
I first saw Vision's opinion framed around Batman & his villains. Do they appear to challenge him? Would Gotham not have them if there were not a challenge in the form of Batman? Thats a good point. Reminds me of the Batman vs Joker fight from '89 where Joker states that Batman made him (in the films adaptation) and in turn Batman replies, i made you, you made me first and Joker mocks his first cause argument. Indeed a chicken egg paradox.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 6, 2018 18:46:05 GMT
I'm just messing with him, but you can exaggerate this from how Superman keeps thumbing his nose at the Military in MOS. First he "surrenders" to him but later shows he was toying with them and just did it to get to the General. Then he destroys the Drone, millions of taxpayers dollars, and basically says "You'll never control me, I'll never let you know a thing and this is what happens if you try." That's interesting, I interpret that as standing up against tyranny. I'm just using his own logic on him. He says Cap is a tyrant, you can just as easily apply that to DCEU Supes.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 7, 2018 4:57:27 GMT
I think we can all agree that the accords was an idiotic idea to begin with. I think we can all agree Steve Rogers is a tyrant.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 7, 2018 5:02:56 GMT
All the guy does is stop villains and save people. And get innocent civilians killed and aids and abets a double-murderer to flee from the police and helps criminals get away with even more crimes. Sure some people got blown up in Nigeria People with families and loved ones, but to Cap those people are just collateral damage and their lives didn't matter. it was still fewer deaths than what would have happened if they didn't try to stop that HYDRA group at all. And that's going to make the families of those people killed by Cap's team feel better about their losing their loved ones due to the reckless actions of the Avengers?
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Apr 7, 2018 10:30:12 GMT
I think we can all agree that the accords was an idiotic idea to begin with. I think we can all agree Steve Rogers is a tyrant. Nope. Steve being against the accords makes sense, especially in universe. Steve witness Shield being infested with a Nazi death cult (Hydra). So it makes sense for him to be skeptical about the government wanting control over the Avengers. Again the same government that wanted to nuke a heavily populated area.
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