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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 8, 2018 16:51:10 GMT
Legally, they're not. HYDRA started the event. Cap et al. mitigated the death toll by interveneing. WRONG!!! From a criminal perspective, they're not. But no one has said they should be prosecuted for killing those people in the building. But from a civil case perspective, they certainly are. And that's what I've been saying. The Avengers were responsible for causing the deaths of the people in the building who wouldn't have died if not for the reckless actions of the Avengers. So legally, YES, the Avengers are responsible for causing the deaths of those innocent civilians. You can be found not guilty of murder and still be held responsible for causing deaths. Just ask O.J. Simpson. 'Help, Police! I was captured by HYDRA during World War 2, brainwashed, held in stasis, and periodically activated with code words to complete covert kill missions then return to a secret base in Siberia!' Should anyone in Bucky's position expect that to go the way they want it to? And Bucky is free to argue that in front of a jury. Too bad he wasn't going to be given that chance.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 8, 2018 16:57:31 GMT
Nope, if the Avengers didn't want the sign the Accord, then they were free to "Retire", which isn't getting a pension and a gold watch. Not everyone gets pension and a gold watch. But it's retirement like a dishonorable discharge. Basically, you don't want to sign the Accords, then we'll discharge you but we're not giving you any pension or gold watch or benefits. We're just letting you go your own way and you're no longer part of the team.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 8, 2018 16:58:37 GMT
"Retire", which isn't getting a pension and a gold watch. Basically, you don't want to sign the Accords, then we'll Have you under observation the rest of your life and probably house arrest. And we won't be grateful for anything you've done.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 8, 2018 16:59:48 GMT
And Bucky is free to argue that in front of a jury. Too bad he wasn't going to be given that chance. Bucky was 100% guaranteed a trial by jury. It's just that Steve didn't want a trial for Bucky because it sets a bad precedence. Steve believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, then the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by and answer to the people.
Letting Bucky go to trial and be judged by the people would set a bad precedence for the Avengers. That's why Steve didn't want Bucky to go to trial.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 8, 2018 17:00:41 GMT
Too bad he wasn't going to be given that chance. Bucky was 100% guaranteed
To not get a trial.
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Post by Daisy on Apr 8, 2018 17:15:46 GMT
Legally, they're not. HYDRA started the event. Cap et al. mitigated the death toll by interveneing. WRONG!!! From a criminal perspective, they're not. But no one has said they should be prosecuted for killing those people in the building. But from a civil case perspective, they certainly are. And that's what I've been saying. The Avengers were responsible for causing the deaths of the people in the building who wouldn't have died if not for the reckless actions of the Avengers. So legally, YES, the Avengers are responsible for causing the deaths of those innocent civilians. You can be found not guilty of murder and still be held responsible for causing deaths. Just ask O.J. Simpson. 'Help, Police! I was captured by HYDRA during World War 2, brainwashed, held in stasis, and periodically activated with code words to complete covert kill missions then return to a secret base in Siberia!' Should anyone in Bucky's position expect that to go the way they want it to? And Bucky is free to argue that in front of a jury. If someone is kidnapped and tortured and manages to escape and kill their kidnapper, they still aren't allowed to just run away and not report the killing to the police. They're still required to report the killing to the police. They can argue that they killed their kidnapper in self-defense and the killing may be justified, but nevertheless they're still required to report the killing to the police. Bucky certainly wasn't held in stasis for 25 years since he's obviously been running around free. SO Bucky has had 25 years to report the killing of Howard and Maria Stark to the police. But Bucky never reported the killings to the police and only fled from the police and has shown no remorse at all for 25 years. So I call BULLSHIT on Bucky's claim that he was brainwashed. Bucky is guilty of 2 violent and brutal murders of civilians and Steve Rogers, by aiding and abetting a double-murderer is guilty of accessory to murder after the fact as well as obstruction of justice.
I know you make dumb arguments and that it's your thing, but you've gone full retard. Cap et al. aren't responsible in any way. Not criminally, not civilly. HYDRA initiated the incident when they attacked the Institute for Infectious Disease - before Cap et al. had done anything. The rule of felony murder still applies. Bucky would have no expectation of being believed. You'd have to prove brainwashing is real, and in the MCU that's not common knowledge even though plenty of weird shit had already happened. Sure the defense could use Bucky's programming to make him act like a chicken to demonstrate brainwashing is real, but since it's his ass on the line the prosecution could say he's just acting brainwashed. You call bullshit? Did you see the scene with Zemo activating Bucky's programming? How is he supposed to decide to tell the cops when he's still brainwashed? Zemo took advantage of his programming, even after he had been 'free' for a while, so his brain was still fucked. The O.J. comparison is shit, as usual. The civil case result was a make-up call, and O.J. was found to have acted "with oppression and malice." Did Rogers or Wanda or Romanoff or Wilson act "with oppression and malice"? Obviously not. They were trying to stop terrorists from acquiring a biological weapon. stop being dumb. this is boring. For someone who rated both The Winter Soldier and Civil War a 1, you spend an awful lot of time talking about them.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Apr 8, 2018 20:55:40 GMT
Too bad he wasn't going to be given that chance. Bucky was 100% guaranteed a trial by jury. It's just that Steve didn't want a trial for Bucky because it sets a bad precedence. Steve believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, then the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by and answer to the people.
Letting Bucky go to trial and be judged by the people would set a bad precedence for the Avengers. That's why Steve didn't want Bucky to go to trial.
Your grammar is atrocious
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 8, 2018 21:06:37 GMT
Bucky was 100% guaranteed a trial by jury. It's just that Steve didn't want a trial for Bucky because it sets a bad precedence. Steve believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, then the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by and answer to the people.
Letting Bucky go to trial and be judged by the people would set a bad precedence for the Avengers. That's why Steve didn't want Bucky to go to trial.
Your grammar is atrocious His argument is atrocious. And ignores what's in the movie itself.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 8, 2018 22:20:38 GMT
And Bucky is free to argue that in front of a jury. If someone is kidnapped and tortured and manages to escape and kill their kidnapper, they still aren't allowed to just run away and not report the killing to the police. They're still required to report the killing to the police. They can argue that they killed their kidnapper in self-defense and the killing may be justified, but nevertheless they're still required to report the killing to the police. Bucky certainly wasn't held in stasis for 25 years since he's obviously been running around free. SO Bucky has had 25 years to report the killing of Howard and Maria Stark to the police. But Bucky never reported the killings to the police and only fled from the police and has shown no remorse at all for 25 years. So I call BULLSHIT on Bucky's claim that he was brainwashed. Bucky is guilty of 2 violent and brutal murders of civilians and Steve Rogers, by aiding and abetting a double-murderer is guilty of accessory to murder after the fact as well as obstruction of justice.
I know you make dumb arguments and that it's your thing, but you've gone full retard. Cap et al. aren't responsible in any way. Not criminally, not civilly. HYDRA initiated the incident when they attacked the Institute for Infectious Disease - before Cap et al. had done anything. The rule of felony murder still applies. You've really gone full retard. The rule of felony murder doesn't apply and doesn't mean shit in a civil lawsuit because civil lawsuits don't give a shit about murder. Civil lawsuits are about wrongful death and who is responsible for the wrongful death. And in the case of the innocent civilians killed in the building, it was the Avengers who were directly responsible for their deaths.Bucky would have no expectation of being believed. You'd have to prove brainwashing is real, and in the MCU that's not common knowledge even though plenty of weird shit had already happened. Sure the defense could use Bucky's programming to make him act like a chicken to demonstrate brainwashing is real, but since it's his ass on the line the prosecution could say he's just acting brainwashed. So you want Bucky to go free for 2 violent and brutal killings without even having to prove that his BULLSHIT claim that he was brainwashed? Even if a burglar breaks into your home and you kill him in self-defense, it may very well be self-defense and a justified killing, but if you're going to claim self-defense for the killing, then you STILL have to prove that it was self-defense, you still have to prove that the person you killed was an immeinent threat to your life and you had to use lethal force to defend yourself. But you want Bucky to go free for 2 violent and brutal killings without even having to prove his BULLSHIT claim that he was brainwashed. So if Timothy McVeigh or Ted Kaczynski had claimed they killed people because they were brainwashed, then your response would be "OK, you were brainwashed. No need for you to pvoe you were brainwashed. If you say you were brainwashed, then that's good enough and you should go free."
That's how RETARDED your argument is. If Bucky wants to claim he committed 2 violent and brutal killings of 2 civilians because he was brainwashed, then he's free to argue that in court. But YES< he will need to prove his BULLSHIT claim of being brainwashed because it should NOT be so easy for someone to just commit 2 violent and brutal killings of 2 civilians and just go free simply by claiming he was brainwashed and not need to prove it.You call bullshit? Did you see the scene with Zemo activating Bucky's programming? The O.J. comparison is shit, as usual. The civil case result was a make-up call, and O.J. was found to have acted "with oppression and malice." Did Rogers or Wanda or Romanoff or Wilson act "with oppression and malice"? What the fuck do "oppression and malice" have to do with the fact that the Avengers killed those people in the building? "Oppression and malice" is NOT a requirement to prove fault in a wrongful death case. If you're driving your car and you get a call on your cell phone and you look down to pick up your cell phone and end up hitting a child and killing the child, you had no "oppression or malice" to kill the child, but you're STILL at fault for the wrongful death of the child.
Likewise, Cap's team is STILL at fault for the wrongful deaths of those people in the building, who wouldn't have died if not for the reckless actions of Cap's team.
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Post by Daisy on Apr 8, 2018 22:30:56 GMT
I know you make dumb arguments and that it's your thing, but you've gone full retard. Cap et al. aren't responsible in any way. Not criminally, not civilly. HYDRA initiated the incident when they attacked the Institute for Infectious Disease - before Cap et al. had done anything. The rule of felony murder still applies. You've really gone full retard. The rule of felony murder doesn't apply and doesn't mean shit in a civil lawsuit because civil lawsuits don't give a shit about murder. Civil lawsuits are about wrongful death and who is responsible for the wrongful death. And in the case of the innocent civilians killed in the building, it was the Avengers who were directly responsible for their deaths.Bucky would have no expectation of being believed. You'd have to prove brainwashing is real, and in the MCU that's not common knowledge even though plenty of weird shit had already happened. Sure the defense could use Bucky's programming to make him act like a chicken to demonstrate brainwashing is real, but since it's his ass on the line the prosecution could say he's just acting brainwashed. So you want Bucky to go free for 2 violent and brutal killings without even having to prove that his BULLSHIT claim that he was brainwashed? Even if a burglar breaks into your home and you kill him in self-defense, it may very well be self-defense and a justified killing, but if you're going to claim self-defense for the killing, then you STILL have to prove that it was self-defense, you still have to prove that the person you killed was an immeinent threat to your life and you had to use lethal force to defend yourself. But you want Bucky to go free for 2 violent and brutal killings without even having to prove his BULLSHIT claim that he was brainwashed. So if Timothy McVeigh or Ted Kaczynski had claimed they killed people because they were brainwashed, then your response would be "OK, you were brainwashed. No need for you to pvoe you were brainwashed. If you say you were brainwashed, then that's good enough and you should go free."
That's how RETARDED your argument is. If Bucky wants to claim he committed 2 violent and brutal killings of 2 civilians because he was brainwashed, then he's free to argue that in court. But YES< he will need to prove his BULLSHIT claim of being brainwashed because it should NOT be so easy for someone to just commit 2 violent and brutal killings of 2 civilians and just go free simply by claiming he was brainwashed and not need to prove it.You call bullshit? Did you see the scene with Zemo activating Bucky's programming? The O.J. comparison is shit, as usual. The civil case result was a make-up call, and O.J. was found to have acted "with oppression and malice." Did Rogers or Wanda or Romanoff or Wilson act "with oppression and malice"? What the fuck do "oppression and malice" have to do with the fact that the Avengers killed those people in the building? "Oppression and malice" is NOT a requirement to prove fault in a wrongful death case. If you're driving your car and you get a call on your cell phone and you look down to pick up your cell phone and end up hitting a child and killing the child, you had no "oppression or malice" to kill the child, but you're STILL at fault for the wrongful death of the child.
Likewise, Cap's team is STILL at fault for the wrongful deaths of those people in the building, who wouldn't have died if not for the reckless actions of Cap's team.
Wow I'm not reading all that drivel. Felony murder doctrine = Cap not responsible. Bucky was in fact brainwashed. It's unreasonable to hold him accountable, it's also unreasonable to expect for anyone to believe him without proof. You lose. As usual.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 9, 2018 4:32:51 GMT
You've really gone full retard. The rule of felony murder doesn't apply and doesn't mean shit in a civil lawsuit because civil lawsuits don't give a shit about murder. Civil lawsuits are about wrongful death and who is responsible for the wrongful death. And in the case of the innocent civilians killed in the building, it was the Avengers who were directly responsible for their deaths.So you want Bucky to go free for 2 violent and brutal killings without even having to prove that his BULLSHIT claim that he was brainwashed? Even if a burglar breaks into your home and you kill him in self-defense, it may very well be self-defense and a justified killing, but if you're going to claim self-defense for the killing, then you STILL have to prove that it was self-defense, you still have to prove that the person you killed was an immeinent threat to your life and you had to use lethal force to defend yourself. But you want Bucky to go free for 2 violent and brutal killings without even having to prove his BULLSHIT claim that he was brainwashed. So if Timothy McVeigh or Ted Kaczynski had claimed they killed people because they were brainwashed, then your response would be "OK, you were brainwashed. No need for you to pvoe you were brainwashed. If you say you were brainwashed, then that's good enough and you should go free."
That's how RETARDED your argument is. If Bucky wants to claim he committed 2 violent and brutal killings of 2 civilians because he was brainwashed, then he's free to argue that in court. But YES< he will need to prove his BULLSHIT claim of being brainwashed because it should NOT be so easy for someone to just commit 2 violent and brutal killings of 2 civilians and just go free simply by claiming he was brainwashed and not need to prove it.You call bullshit? Did you see the scene with Zemo activating Bucky's programming? What the fuck do "oppression and malice" have to do with the fact that the Avengers killed those people in the building? "Oppression and malice" is NOT a requirement to prove fault in a wrongful death case. If you're driving your car and you get a call on your cell phone and you look down to pick up your cell phone and end up hitting a child and killing the child, you had no "oppression or malice" to kill the child, but you're STILL at fault for the wrongful death of the child.
Likewise, Cap's team is STILL at fault for the wrongful deaths of those people in the building, who wouldn't have died if not for the reckless actions of Cap's team.
Wow I'm not reading all that drivel. Felony murder doctrine = Cap not responsible. NO FELONY MURDER RULE IN CIVIL COURT = CAP'S TEAM RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANSBucky was in fact brainwashed. And Bucky can argue that in front of a jury. WHY WON'T BUCKY ARGUE THAT IN FRONT OF A JURY? BECAUSE CAP IS A TYRANT who believes that sine the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings instead of being judged by or answering to the people.It's unreasonable to hold him accountable, it's also unreasonable to expect for anyone to believe him without proof. It's unreasonable to let someone who committed 2 violent and brutal murders of civilians to go free simply because he claims he was brainwashed, without having to prove it in court.
Timothy McVeigh: I killed people because I was brainwashed.
Ted Kaczynksi: I also killed people because I was brainwashed.
MCU Fans: OK, you claim you killed people because you were brainwashed. Then you're not guilty and you're free to go. No need to prove in court tht you were brainwashed.Nope. Y OU LOSE, AS ALWAYS!
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 9, 2018 11:30:51 GMT
NO FELONY MURDER RULE IN CIVIL COURT = CAP'S TEAM RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS More would've died if they'd done nothing. The Government won't give him one. It's unreasonable to let someone who Was brainwashed be killed.
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Post by Daisy on Apr 9, 2018 13:35:52 GMT
Wow I'm not reading all that drivel. Felony murder doctrine = Cap not responsible. NO FELONY MURDER RULE IN CIVIL COURT = CAP'S TEAM RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANSBucky was in fact brainwashed. And Bucky can argue that in front of a jury. WHY WON'T BUCKY ARGUE THAT IN FRONT OF A JURY? BECAUSE CAP IS A TYRANT who believes that sine the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings instead of being judged by or answering to the people.It's unreasonable to hold him accountable, it's also unreasonable to expect for anyone to believe him without proof. It's unreasonable to let someone who committed 2 violent and brutal murders of civilians to go free simply because he claims he was brainwashed, without having to prove it in court.
Timothy McVeigh: I killed people because I was brainwashed.
Ted Kaczynksi: I also killed people because I was brainwashed.
MCU Fans: OK, you claim you killed people because you were brainwashed. Then you're not guilty and you're free to go. No need to prove in court tht you were brainwashed.Nope. Y OU LOSE, AS ALWAYS! LOL BOLD TEXT! What happened to using red too?
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