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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 7, 2018 12:24:41 GMT
I think we can all agree that the accords was an idiotic idea to begin with. I think we can all agree Steve Rogers is a Real hero, especially compared to Batman and Superman.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 7, 2018 12:26:54 GMT
All the guy does is stop villains and save people. And get innocent civilians killed He's got a lower fatality rate than Batman and Superman. If by "criminal" you mean "innocent". People with families and loved ones And if they'd done nothing, more would've died. MCU isn't afraid to show that you can't save everyone, unlike DC or Fox. And that's going to make the families of those people killed by Crossbones, not Cap. You're blaming the wrong people to begin with. This isn't like DC where their heroes directly kill people.
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Post by Daisy on Apr 7, 2018 14:05:46 GMT
All the guy does is stop villains and save people. And get innocent civilians killed and aids and abets a double-murderer to flee from the police and helps criminals get away with even more crimes. Sure some people got blown up in Nigeria People with families and loved ones, but to Cap those people are just collateral damage and their lives didn't matter. it was still fewer deaths than what would have happened if they didn't try to stop that HYDRA group at all. And that's going to make the families of those people killed by Cap's team feel better about their losing their loved ones due to the reckless actions of the Avengers? Cap doesn't get people killed. Antagonists start events that get people killed, Cap mitigates the casualties. Of course it won't make them feel better, you're talking about feelings vs rationality. That 'double-murderer' was brainwashed and thus not legally responsible for his actions.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 7, 2018 18:07:16 GMT
I think we can all agree Steve Rogers is a tyrant. Nope. Steve being against the accords makes sense, especially in universe. Steve being against the Accords only makes sense from the perspective that Steve thinks that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like tyrants rather than be judged by and answer to the people. Steve witness Shield being infested with a Nazi death cult (Hydra). And the whole country witness Nixon being corrupt. But NO ONE called for the abolishment of the Presidency. The people got rid of Nixon because Nixon was corrupt, government and the Presidency WASN'T corrupt. Likewise, Shield may have been corrupt, but the UN (which would have oversight of the Avengers) WASN'T corrupt. But you know who is corrupt? Steve Rogers, who spits on the Constitution, aids and abets a double-murderer to flee from the police, endangers the live sof good police officers, and helps criminals get away with crimes against innocent people IS corrupt.
So it makes sense for him to be skeptical about the government wanting control over the Avengers. It only makes sense from the perspective that Steve thinks that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like tyrants rather than be judged by and answer to the people. the same government that wanted to nuke a heavily populated area. You mean the government that saved New York city from the Chitauri invasion after the Avengers just stood around for half an hour doing nothing but cracking jokes and 1-liners and having a "party" while the Chitauri were killing civilians.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 7, 2018 18:17:38 GMT
And get innocent civilians killed He's got a lower fatality rate than Batman and Superman. No, he doesn't. Steve Rogers is not only responsible for the deaths of the many civilians that his team's reckless actions directly killed, but Steve Rogers is also responsible for ALL future criminals who kill innocent people due to the fact that law enforcement has to divert manpower and resources away from catching those criminals in order to track down double-murderer Bucky and his accessory after-the-fact Steve Rogers. So Steve Rogers death toll is much higher because the body count continues to rise with every criminal who kills an innocent person and gets away with it because law enforcement doesn't have enough manpower and resources to catch them since they have to spend manpower and resources tracking down Bucky and Steve. If by "criminal" you mean "innocent". No, I mean criminals. Not only double-murderer Bucky, but EVERY criminal who gets away with killing an innocent person. That's ALL included in Steve Rogers' death toll because law enforcement has to divert manpower and resources away from catching those criminals in order to track down double-murderer Bucky and his accessory after-the-fact Steve Rogers. And if they'd done nothing, more would've died. And that's supposed to make the families of those civilians killed by the Avengers' reckless actions feel better? Crossbones, not Cap. You're blaming the wrong people to begin with. No, Scarlett Witch and Cap (who was commanding the team) were responsible for the deaths of those innocent civilians. Because if Cap's team hadn't acted so recklessly by getting into a showdown with a dangerous criminal in a crowded market in the middle of the day, then those innocent civilians in the building wouldn't have died. Those innocent civilians in the building got up in the morning and went to work and expected to go home to their families at the end of the day. The reason they won't ever go home to their families again is because Scarlet Witch caused a bomb to blow out the side of their building. That's on Scarlett Witch and Cap (who was commanding the team).
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 7, 2018 18:22:40 GMT
And get innocent civilians killed and aids and abets a double-murderer to flee from the police and helps criminals get away with even more crimes. People with families and loved ones, but to Cap those people are just collateral damage and their lives didn't matter. And that's going to make the families of those people killed by Cap's team feel better about their losing their loved ones due to the reckless actions of the Avengers? Cap doesn't get people killed.[/qote] Cap's team got many innocent civilians in the building killed who wouldn't have been killed if Scarlett Witch hadn't caused that bomb to blow out the side of their building. Those innocent civilians got up in the morning and went to work and expected to go home to their families at the end of the day. They had no idea that they would be in the line of fire thanks to Cap's team. The reason they won't ever go home to their families again is because of the reckless actions of Cap's team. That's on Scarlett Witch and Cap (who was commanding the team). That 'double-murderer' was brainwashed and thus not legally responsible for his actions. And like I said before, that's for a jury to decide if Bucky is guilty of murder or a lesser charge of manslaughter or not guilty. If Steve and Bucky feel that Bucky is not guilty, then they should get a lawyer and argue that in front of a jury. But the reason they won't do that is because Cap believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by and answer to the people. Cap's argument is the old "Might Makes Right" argument.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 7, 2018 18:27:20 GMT
He's got a lower fatality rate than Batman and Superman. No, he doesn't. Yeah, he does. Superman brought Zod to Earth so he's indirectly responsible for everyone killed in MOS to say nothing of the people killed in the actual final battle. Batman in the DCEU is a full on murderer who kills directly. Which is zero. If they'd done nothing then more would've died in that market. Either way they're dead. No, it's the higher-ups who ordered them to be hunted down who are responsible for that. Which Cap and the Avengers aren't. Supermans' more of a criminal than them. No, but it's the truth. The bomb not killing people in the market. Which would've been a higher death toll. Crossbones blew himself up.
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Post by Daisy on Apr 7, 2018 18:36:51 GMT
And that's supposed to make the families of those civilians killed by the Avengers' reckless actions feel better? Meh, fuck their feelings. Feelings aren't always rational. We're talking about accountability, not whom the grief-stricken personally blame. No, Scarlett Witch and Cap (who was commanding the team) were responsible for the deaths of those innocent civilians. Because if Cap's team hadn't acted so recklessly by getting into a showdown with a dangerous criminal in a crowded market in the middle of the day, then those innocent civilians in the building wouldn't have died. Those innocent civilians in the building got up in the morning and went to work and expected to go home to their families at the end of the day. The reason they won't ever go home to their families again is because Scarlet Witch caused a bomb to blow out the side of their building. That's on Scarlett Witch and Cap (who was commanding the team). LOL. Nope nope nope. Say you rob a bank and take hostages. If Hostage A tries to kill you but ends up killing Hostage B instead by accident, you, the hostage taker, are responsible for murder. It's called the rule of felony murder. The person who commissions the crime (you as a hostage taker, Crossbones as a HYDRA agent/terrorist) is responsible for any death resulting from the event. You might know about the rule of felony murder if you watched cop shows instead of sweaty men in tights grappling each other. Cap's team got many innocent civilians in the building killed who wouldn't have been killed if Scarlett Witch hadn't caused that bomb to blow out the side of their building. Those innocent civilians got up in the morning and went to work and expected to go home to their families at the end of the day. They had no idea that they would be in the line of fire thanks to Cap's team. The reason they won't ever go home to their families again is because of the reckless actions of Cap's team. That's on Scarlett Witch and Cap (who was commanding the team). And like I said before, that's for a jury to decide if Bucky is guilty of murder or a lesser charge of manslaughter or not guilty. If Steve and Bucky feel that Bucky is not guilty, then they should get a lawyer and argue that in front of a jury. But the reason they won't do that is because Cap believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by and answer to the people. Cap's argument is the old "Might Makes Right" argument. See felony murder rule above. A jury...pft. That would make for a boring movie.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 7, 2018 18:54:06 GMT
And that's supposed to make the families of those civilians killed by the Avengers' reckless actions feel better? Meh, fuck their feelings. Feelings aren't always rational. We're talking about accountability, not whom the grief-stricken personally blame. No, Scarlett Witch and Cap (who was commanding the team) were responsible for the deaths of those innocent civilians. Because if Cap's team hadn't acted so recklessly by getting into a showdown with a dangerous criminal in a crowded market in the middle of the day, then those innocent civilians in the building wouldn't have died. Those innocent civilians in the building got up in the morning and went to work and expected to go home to their families at the end of the day. The reason they won't ever go home to their families again is because Scarlet Witch caused a bomb to blow out the side of their building. That's on Scarlett Witch and Cap (who was commanding the team). LOL. Nope nope nope. Say you rob a bank and take hostages. If Hostage A tries to kill you but ends up killing Hostage B instead by accident, you, the hostage taker, are responsible for murder. It's called the rule of felony murder. The person who commissions the crime (you as a hostage taker, Crossbones as a HYDRA agent/terrorist) is responsible for any death resulting from the event. That's a legal definition for a criminal case. But you forget that there can also be a civil case for wrongful death. If armed bank robbers try to rob a bank and take hostages and the bank's security guard tries to play hero and recklessly gets into a shootout with the armed bank robbers and ends up shooting and killing several hostages, the security guard and the bank/security company could be sued for wrongful death in a civil court. Same with Cap's team. Cap's team acted recklessly without regard to the numerous innocent bystanders that were around (similar to how Banner acted recklessly without regard to the numerous innocent bystanders around when he went to the university during the daytime even though he knew full well that the Hulk was a danger to civilians) and it was the reckless actions of Cap's team that directly resulted in the deaths of many innocent civilians who wouldn't have died if not for Cap's team. Cap's team got many innocent civilians in the building killed who wouldn't have been killed if Scarlett Witch hadn't caused that bomb to blow out the side of their building. Those innocent civilians got up in the morning and went to work and expected to go home to their families at the end of the day. They had no idea that they would be in the line of fire thanks to Cap's team. The reason they won't ever go home to their families again is because of the reckless actions of Cap's team. That's on Scarlett Witch and Cap (who was commanding the team). And like I said before, that's for a jury to decide if Bucky is guilty of murder or a lesser charge of manslaughter or not guilty. If Steve and Bucky feel that Bucky is not guilty, then they should get a lawyer and argue that in front of a jury. But the reason they won't do that is because Cap believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by and answer to the people. Cap's argument is the old "Might Makes Right" argument. See felony murder rule above. A jury...pft. That would make for a boring movie. The felony murder rule has nothing to do with Bucky killing Howard and Maria Stark. Bucky violently and brutally killed Howard and Maria Stark. If Bucky claims that he was brainwashed, it's up to a jury to decide if Bucky is guilty of murder or manslaughter or not guilty. No if Bucky had surrendered himself peacefully to police and shown remorse for his actions which resulted in the violent and brutal deaths of 2 civilians, then a jury might be more sympathetic to Bucky's argument. But eh fact that Bucky fled from the law and refused to accept any responsibility at all for his actions that resulted in the violent and brutal deaths of 2 civilians and has no shown no remorse at all would make it hard for a jury to let a double-murderer off the hook.
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Post by Daisy on Apr 7, 2018 18:57:04 GMT
Meh, fuck their feelings. Feelings aren't always rational. We're talking about accountability, not whom the grief-stricken personally blame. LOL. Nope nope nope. Say you rob a bank and take hostages. If Hostage A tries to kill you but ends up killing Hostage B instead by accident, you, the hostage taker, are responsible for murder. It's called the rule of felony murder. The person who commissions the crime (you as a hostage taker, Crossbones as a HYDRA agent/terrorist) is responsible for any death resulting from the event. That's a legal definition for a criminal case. But you forget that there can also be a civil case for wrongful death. If armed bank robbers try to rob a bank and take hostages and the bank's security guard tries to play hero and recklessly gets into a shootout with the armed bank robbers and ends up shooting and killing several hostages, the security guard and the bank/security company could be sued for wrongful death in a civil court. Same with Cap's team. Cap's team acted recklessly without regard to the numerous innocent bystanders that were around (similar to how Banner acted recklessly without regard to the numerous innocent bystanders around when he went to the university during the daytime even though he knew full well that the Hulk was a danger to civilians) and it was the reckless actions of Cap's team that directly resulted in the deaths of many innocent civilians who wouldn't have died if not for Cap's team. See felony murder rule above. A jury...pft. That would make for a boring movie. The felony murder rule has nothing to do with Bucky killing Howard and Maria Stark. Bucky violently and brutally killed Howard and Maria Stark. If Bucky claims that he was brainwashed, it's up to a jury to decide if Bucky is guilty of murder or manslaughter or not guilty. No if Bucky had surrendered himself peacefully to police and shown remorse for his actions which resulted in the violent and brutal deaths of 2 civilians, then a jury might be more sympathetic to Bucky's argument. But eh fact that Bucky fled from the law and refused to accept any responsibility at all for his actions that resulted in the violent and brutal deaths of 2 civilians and has no shown no remorse at all would make it hard for a jury to let a double-murderer off the hook. You're just spinning your wheels now. Cap/Crossbones - felony murder rule. Bucky/Starks - Brainwashing. It's funny you say 'it's up to a jury to decide' even though you already made up your mind once you started this part of your shtick.
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Post by sostie on Apr 7, 2018 19:24:27 GMT
Meh, fuck their feelings. Feelings aren't always rational. We're talking about accountability, not whom the grief-stricken personally blame. LOL. Nope nope nope. Say you rob a bank and take hostages. If Hostage A tries to kill you but ends up killing Hostage B instead by accident, you, the hostage taker, are responsible for murder. It's called the rule of felony murder. The person who commissions the crime (you as a hostage taker, Crossbones as a HYDRA agent/terrorist) is responsible for any death resulting from the event. That's a legal definition for a criminal case. But you forget that there can also be a civil case for wrongful death. If armed bank robbers try to rob a bank and take hostages and the bank's security guard tries to play hero and recklessly gets into a shootout with the armed bank robbers and ends up shooting and killing several hostages, the security guard and the bank/security company could be sued for wrongful death in a civil court. Same with Cap's team. Cap's team acted recklessly without regard to the numerous innocent bystanders that were around (similar to how Banner acted recklessly without regard to the numerous innocent bystanders around when he went to the university during the daytime even though he knew full well that the Hulk was a danger to civilians) and it was the reckless actions of Cap's team that directly resulted in the deaths of many innocent civilians who wouldn't have died if not for Cap's team. See felony murder rule above. A jury...pft. That would make for a boring movie. The felony murder rule has nothing to do with Bucky killing Howard and Maria Stark. Bucky violently and brutally killed Howard and Maria Stark. If Bucky claims that he was brainwashed, it's up to a jury to decide if Bucky is guilty of murder or manslaughter or not guilty. No if Bucky had surrendered himself peacefully to police and shown remorse for his actions which resulted in the violent and brutal deaths of 2 civilians, then a jury might be more sympathetic to Bucky's argument. But eh fact that Bucky fled from the law and refused to accept any responsibility at all for his actions that resulted in the violent and brutal deaths of 2 civilians and has no shown no remorse at all would make it hard for a jury to let a double-murderer off the hook. A little off topic...but in view of your vehement stance on characters being held accountable for "crimes" committed in CBM movies, how do you feel about Flash and Cyborg committing grave robbery in Justice League? Or Wonder Woman carrying a concealed weapon in public?
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Post by Daisy on Apr 7, 2018 20:40:44 GMT
That's a legal definition for a criminal case. But you forget that there can also be a civil case for wrongful death. If armed bank robbers try to rob a bank and take hostages and the bank's security guard tries to play hero and recklessly gets into a shootout with the armed bank robbers and ends up shooting and killing several hostages, the security guard and the bank/security company could be sued for wrongful death in a civil court. Same with Cap's team. Cap's team acted recklessly without regard to the numerous innocent bystanders that were around (similar to how Banner acted recklessly without regard to the numerous innocent bystanders around when he went to the university during the daytime even though he knew full well that the Hulk was a danger to civilians) and it was the reckless actions of Cap's team that directly resulted in the deaths of many innocent civilians who wouldn't have died if not for Cap's team. The felony murder rule has nothing to do with Bucky killing Howard and Maria Stark. Bucky violently and brutally killed Howard and Maria Stark. If Bucky claims that he was brainwashed, it's up to a jury to decide if Bucky is guilty of murder or manslaughter or not guilty. No if Bucky had surrendered himself peacefully to police and shown remorse for his actions which resulted in the violent and brutal deaths of 2 civilians, then a jury might be more sympathetic to Bucky's argument. But eh fact that Bucky fled from the law and refused to accept any responsibility at all for his actions that resulted in the violent and brutal deaths of 2 civilians and has no shown no remorse at all would make it hard for a jury to let a double-murderer off the hook. A little off topic...but in view of your vehement stance on characters being held accountable for "crimes" committed in CBM movies, how do you feel about Flash and Cyborg committing grave robbery in Justice League? Or Wonder Woman carrying a concealed weapon in public? Plus, Superman is an illegal immigrant. Ma and Pa Kent used fraudulent documents in raising him. He stole that Daily Planet job from a citizen.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Apr 8, 2018 1:17:21 GMT
His counter argument was "What if we are needed somewhere and we're not allow to go? If all of them sign the accords than they're essentially signing their freedom away. If they sign it and Thanos attacks and the UN says "Nope you can't interfere" what then? Hydra had its tentacles in not only Shield, which was an agency all over the globe, but senators and other world leaders. Who's to say that aren't part of the UN as well? This is an organisation that secretly behind the scenes caused various of conflict to maintain control for decades. Steve learned all of this from Zola, it makes sense for him to be cautious of the UN and the accords. Anyone would really. Tyrants? The Avengers are nothing more than a response team for threats that are too great for for your averge joe. That's what Fury envision them to be. They're not a weapon for the United States or Europe to play with. Are they perfect? Of course not, but they have a sworn duty to protect the planet. You mean the Nuke that Iron Man himself sent towards the Chitauri mothership? The same nuke that instead of killing millions and creating a fallout that could kill even more? Again The Avengers saved more lives than the government would have. The accords was nothing more than a excuse for big brother to have even more control.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 8, 2018 4:56:25 GMT
That's a legal definition for a criminal case. But you forget that there can also be a civil case for wrongful death. If armed bank robbers try to rob a bank and take hostages and the bank's security guard tries to play hero and recklessly gets into a shootout with the armed bank robbers and ends up shooting and killing several hostages, the security guard and the bank/security company could be sued for wrongful death in a civil court. Same with Cap's team. Cap's team acted recklessly without regard to the numerous innocent bystanders that were around (similar to how Banner acted recklessly without regard to the numerous innocent bystanders around when he went to the university during the daytime even though he knew full well that the Hulk was a danger to civilians) and it was the reckless actions of Cap's team that directly resulted in the deaths of many innocent civilians who wouldn't have died if not for Cap's team. The felony murder rule has nothing to do with Bucky killing Howard and Maria Stark. Bucky violently and brutally killed Howard and Maria Stark. If Bucky claims that he was brainwashed, it's up to a jury to decide if Bucky is guilty of murder or manslaughter or not guilty. No if Bucky had surrendered himself peacefully to police and shown remorse for his actions which resulted in the violent and brutal deaths of 2 civilians, then a jury might be more sympathetic to Bucky's argument. But eh fact that Bucky fled from the law and refused to accept any responsibility at all for his actions that resulted in the violent and brutal deaths of 2 civilians and has no shown no remorse at all would make it hard for a jury to let a double-murderer off the hook. You're just spinning your wheels now. Cap/Crossbones - felony murder rule. Bucky/Starks - Brainwashing No, you're spinning your wheels. 1st, what the fuck does the felony murder rule have to do with Cap and his team being responsible for killing many innocent civilians in that building? No one said Cap and his team should be prosecuted for murdering those people, but what I said is that Cap and his team are responsible for causing their deaths. That means they would be held responsible in a civil lawsuit in a civil court. And the felony murder rule doesn't mean shit in a civil lawsuit in a civil court. You don't have to be guilty of a murder in a "criminal" case to be held responsible for wrongful death in a civil lawsuit in a civil court. Just ask O.J. Simpson! Bottom line, the felony murder rule doesn't mean shit in this case. Cap and his team were still the ones who directly caused the deaths of the innocent civilians in the building (civilians who wouldn't have died if not for the reckless actions of Cap and his team) so Cap and his team are directly responsible for causing those deaths.2nd, it's up to a jury to decide if Bucky's brainwashing should reduce the charges from murder to manslaughter or should absolve Bucky of any guilt in those killings. If a mugger attempted to hold you up at gunpoint and you managed to grab his gun and shoot him and kill him, it may have been self-defense, but you still can't just run away. You still have to report that to the police.
Bucky claims he wasn't guilty of killing Howard and Maria Stark because he was brainwashed, but Bucky never even reported it to the police. Was Bucky brainwashed for 25 years? Bucky had 25 years to go to the police and report what he did, but he never went to the police and reported what he did and instead just ran from the police. That proves that Bucky's entire brainwashing claim is just BULLSHIT and proves that Bucky is guilty of double-murder. And by aiding and abetting Bucky to flee from the police, Steve Rogers is an accessory to murder after the fact.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 8, 2018 5:10:09 GMT
His counter argument was "What if we are needed somewhere and we're not allow to go? If all of them sign the accords than they're essentially signing their freedom away. If they sign it and Thanos attacks and the UN says "Nope you can't interfere" what then? Hydra had its tentacles in not only Shield, which was an agency all over the globe, but senators and other world leaders. Who's to say that aren't part of the UN as well? This is an organisation that secretly behind the scenes caused various of conflict to maintain control for decades. So get rid of those people. Nixon was a crook, but there were other crooks in his administration. But the American people didn't say "POTUS is a crook. Everyone who works in the White House is a crook. Let's abolish the Presidency!" Nixon was forced to resign. And several of Nixon's staff were sentenced to jail. Because those people were corrupt. Government ISN"T corrupt. It's individuals who are corrupt.If there are some bad cops in the Police Department, you get rid of those bad cops. You don't get rid of all cops. If there are HYDRA supporters in the UN, you get rid of those HYDRA supporters. But the rest of the UN isn't corrupt. It's individuals who are corrupt. And the most corrupt individual is Steve Rogers, who wants to be a tyrant. Steve Rogers, who spits on the Constitution, aids and abets a double-murderer to flee from the police, endangers the live sof good police officers, and helps criminals get away with crimes against innocent people IS corrupt.Steve learned all of this from Zola, it makes sense for him to be cautious of the UN and the accords. Anyone would really. No, no one would be so stupid to say, there's a few bad cops in the Police Department so let's abolish the Police Department. And no one would be so stupid to say, there are corrupt individuals in the UN so let's abolish the UN or not support the UN at all. T he ONLY people who would say let's not support the UN are tyrants and dictators. And that's exactly what Steve Rogers is - a tyrant who believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, then the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by or answer to the people.
The Avengers are nothing more than a response team for threats that are too great for for your averge joe. That's what Fury envision them to be. But that's not what the Avengers became. The Avengers have became an autonomous group of mercenaries who don't respect the authority of the people and refuse to answer to the people and who believe that since they're more powerful than the rest of the people, they should rule over the people like Kings instead of being judged by and answering to the people. And that's often the 1st step towards tyranny.
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Post by Daisy on Apr 8, 2018 12:49:07 GMT
what I said is that Cap and his team are responsible for causing their deaths Legally, they're not. HYDRA started the event. Cap et al. mitigated the death toll by interveneing. Bucky claims he wasn't guilty of killing Howard and Maria Stark because he was brainwashed, but Bucky never even reported it to the police. 'Help, Police! I was captured by HYDRA during World War 2, brainwashed, held in stasis, and periodically activated with code words to complete covert kill missions then return to a secret base in Siberia!' Should anyone in Bucky's position expect that to go the way they want it to? Stop being dense.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 8, 2018 12:53:30 GMT
So get rid of those people. Nixon was a crook, but there were other crooks in his administration. But the American people didn't say "POTUS is a crook. Everyone who works in the White House is a crook. Let's abolish the Presidency!" Nixon was forced to resign. And several of Nixon's staff were sentenced to jail. Because those people were corrupt. Government ISN"T corrupt. It's individuals who are corrupt.If there are some bad cops in the Police Department, you get rid of those bad cops. You don't get rid of all cops. If there are HYDRA supporters in the UN, you get rid of those HYDRA supporters. But the rest of the UN isn't corrupt. It's individuals who are corrupt. And the most corrupt individual is Steve Rogers, who wants to be a tyrant. Steve Rogers, who spits on the Constitution, aids and abets a double-murderer to flee from the police, endangers the live sof good police officers, and helps criminals get away with crimes against innocent people IS corrupt.No, no one would be so stupid to say, there's a few bad cops in the Police Department so let's abolish the Police Department. And no one would be so stupid to say, there are corrupt individuals in the UN so let's abolish the UN or not support the UN at all. T he ONLY people who would say let's not support the UN are tyrants and dictators. And that's exactly what Steve Rogers is - a tyrant who believes that since the Avengers are more powerful than the rest of the people, then the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by or answer to the people.
The Avengers are nothing more than a response team for threats that are too great for for your averge joe. That's what Fury envision them to be. But that's not what the Avengers became. It is, the UN just wants to make them into slaves.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 8, 2018 16:26:45 GMT
what I said is that Cap and his team are responsible for causing their deaths Legally, they're not. HYDRA started the event. Cap et al. mitigated the death toll by interveneing. WRONG!!! From a criminal perspective, they're not. But no one has said they should be prosecuted for killing those people in the building. But from a civil case perspective, they certainly are. And that's what I've been saying. The Avengers were responsible for causing the deaths of the people in the building who wouldn't have died if not for the reckless actions of the Avengers. So legally, YES, the Avengers are responsible for causing the deaths of those innocent civilians. You can be found not guilty of murder and still be held responsible for causing deaths. Just ask O.J. Simpson. Bucky claims he wasn't guilty of killing Howard and Maria Stark because he was brainwashed, but Bucky never even reported it to the police. 'Help, Police! I was captured by HYDRA during World War 2, brainwashed, held in stasis, and periodically activated with code words to complete covert kill missions then return to a secret base in Siberia!' Should anyone in Bucky's position expect that to go the way they want it to? And Bucky is free to argue that in front of a jury. If someone is kidnapped and tortured and manages to escape and kill their kidnapper, they still aren't allowed to just run away and not report the killing to the police. They're still required to report the killing to the police. They can argue that they killed their kidnapper in self-defense and the killing may be justified, but nevertheless they're still required to report the killing to the police. Bucky certainly wasn't held in stasis for 25 years since he's obviously been running around free. SO Bucky has had 25 years to report the killing of Howard and Maria Stark to the police. But Bucky never reported the killings to the police and only fled from the police and has shown no remorse at all for 25 years. So I call BULLSHIT on Bucky's claim that he was brainwashed. Bucky is guilty of 2 violent and brutal murders of civilians and Steve Rogers, by aiding and abetting a double-murderer is guilty of accessory to murder after the fact as well as obstruction of justice.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 8, 2018 16:28:03 GMT
But that's not what the Avengers became. It is, the UN just wants to make them into slaves. Nope, if the Avengers didn't want the sign the Accord, then they were free to retire and walk away. I've never heard of any form of slavery where a slave was allowed to just quit and walk away if they didn't like it.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 8, 2018 16:50:40 GMT
It is, the UN just wants to make them into slaves. Nope, if the Avengers didn't want the sign the Accord, then they were free to "Retire", which isn't getting a pension and a gold watch. It means being under intense observation and possible house arrest.
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