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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 24, 2018 12:32:52 GMT
I would say if people are born with it the [sic]. It’s the parents fault. Fault for what? Hereditary traits (i.e. those which one are born with) are part of all humans' 'design' equally, and as such stem from much earlier provenance. This sort of special pleading, if blame is to be attached, rather lets any original Creator off lightly.
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Post by captainbryce on May 24, 2018 12:41:47 GMT
What isn’t? 1) It’s ridiculous that this guy would choose to remain part of an organization that literally demonized him to his face. An organization who’s leadership told other members of his religion that he was living a perverse life and not a true member. 2) It’s ridiculous that the Pope would try to pander to the gays pretending that kind words somehow alter the position of the church on homosexuality. 3) Its ridiculous for anyone to have faith in an a religion that proves itself to be false by continuously updating its stance and treating its own congregation differently (depending on who is in Office). 4) Its ridiculous that a gay person would be a Catholic, or any fundamentalist version of Christianity. Catholicism is incredibly far from a "fundamentalist version of Christianity," at least on most issues. Have you even heard of American evangelicals or Southern Baptists? Yes. I lump them (and Mormons as well) all into the same category... “conservative fundamentalist Christians”. Other than the Catholic Church’s recent acceptance of evolution and changing their tone on gays, I don’t see how they are significantly different.
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Post by captainbryce on May 24, 2018 15:07:29 GMT
What isn’t? 1) It’s ridiculous that this guy would choose to remain part of an organization that literally demonized him to his face. An organization who’s leadership told other members of his religion that he was living a perverse life and not a true member. 2) It’s ridiculous that the Pope would try to pander to the gays pretending that kind words somehow alter the position of the church on homosexuality. 3) Its ridiculous for anyone to have faith in an a religion that proves itself to be false by continuously updating its stance and treating its own congregation differently (depending on who is in Office). 4) Its ridiculous that a gay person would be a Catholic, or any fundamentalist version of Christianity. the fact remains that for whatever reason, which we have to assume is valid for the guy, he HAS remained a Catholic, the Pope has supported him. This is GREAT, not ridiculous, the pope is clearly hoping for change and yes it might be a hard road, but it's great he is there and the culmination of events and circumstances allowed the pope to express his feelings of reconciliation to this guy. Your third point irks the shit our of me and is typical of (thankfully rare outside this board) anti religionist hypocrisy. Everyone wants the church to evolve and move with the times, but when there is a hint they do they bleat like pigs about how the church mush be false because they are rethinking their moral stance. Pick an option and stick with it. Well, I am anti-religion. But there’s nothing hypocritical about my position because I don’t want religion to evolve at all. I want religion to go extinct, because it’s obsolete in the age of science and reason. An evolving religion should be proof enough of the falsehood of religion. Proof that god does not inspire anything, but rather men in power (like the Pope) invented and subsequently change the rules as they see fit. Proof that religion is an invention of man, and subject to change enacted by man who seek to maintain power over the people. If “god” existed, and was infallible, and truely inspired the religion (a lot of assumptions there of which we have no evidence), then it wouldn’t change everytime a new Pope comes to power, or everytime a new preacher creates his own branch or denomination.
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Post by Cinemachinery on May 24, 2018 16:01:52 GMT
What is ridiculous about it? What isn’t? 1) It’s ridiculous that this guy would choose to remain part of an organization that literally demonized him to his face. An organization who’s leadership told other members of his religion that he was living a perverse life and not a true member. 2) It’s ridiculous that the Pope would try to pander to the gays pretending that kind words somehow alter the position of the church on homosexuality. 3) Its ridiculous for anyone to have faith in an a religion that proves itself to be false by continuously updating its stance and treating its own congregation differently (depending on who is in Office). 4) Its ridiculous that a gay person would be a Catholic, or any fundamentalist version of Christianity. The church has always remained a few steps behind society as far as social progress goes, and has continued to suffer for it numerically - the only way change comes about it baby steps. I sort of agree it's silly to subscribe to a religious system that dehumanizes you, but as far as the Pope making inroads towards homosexuals, it just makes sense. We're in the 2000s and they're still somewhere around the mid 1900s in that regard. If someone has to begin effecting change as far as the church's outlook on homosexuality, I can't really think of anyone more apt than its leader.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 16:52:12 GMT
Try women for a change, they're pretty awesome once you get over the toilet seat thing.
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Post by gadreel on May 24, 2018 18:12:09 GMT
the fact remains that for whatever reason, which we have to assume is valid for the guy, he HAS remained a Catholic, the Pope has supported him. This is GREAT, not ridiculous, the pope is clearly hoping for change and yes it might be a hard road, but it's great he is there and the culmination of events and circumstances allowed the pope to express his feelings of reconciliation to this guy. Your third point irks the shit our of me and is typical of (thankfully rare outside this board) anti religionist hypocrisy. Everyone wants the church to evolve and move with the times, but when there is a hint they do they bleat like pigs about how the church mush be false because they are rethinking their moral stance. Pick an option and stick with it. Does morality evolve and change with the times? yes.
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Post by gadreel on May 24, 2018 18:14:43 GMT
the fact remains that for whatever reason, which we have to assume is valid for the guy, he HAS remained a Catholic, the Pope has supported him. This is GREAT, not ridiculous, the pope is clearly hoping for change and yes it might be a hard road, but it's great he is there and the culmination of events and circumstances allowed the pope to express his feelings of reconciliation to this guy. Your third point irks the shit our of me and is typical of (thankfully rare outside this board) anti religionist hypocrisy. Everyone wants the church to evolve and move with the times, but when there is a hint they do they bleat like pigs about how the church mush be false because they are rethinking their moral stance. Pick an option and stick with it. Well, I am anti-religion. But there’s nothing hypocritical about my position because I don’t want religion to evolve at all. I want religion to go extinct, because it’s obsolete in the age of science and reason. An evolving religion should be proof enough of the falsehood of religion. Proof that god does not inspire anything, but rather men in power (like the Pope) invented and subsequently change the rules as they see fit. Proof that religion is an invention of man, and subject to change enacted by man who seek to maintain power over the people. If “god” existed, and was infallible, and truely inspired the religion (a lot of assumptions there of which we have no evidence), then it wouldn’t change everytime a new Pope comes to power, or everytime a new preacher creates his own branch or denomination. Religion being an invention of man, which of course it 100% is, like philosophy and language, says nothing about whether there is a God™. Philosophy and morality evolve, religion should too, after all it is basically philosophy, this would have no impact on the religion, only on those stupid men who thought that their particular religion was 10% right.
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Post by gadreel on May 24, 2018 18:41:29 GMT
It's not that Gays are welcome or not in the church, although I find it hard to reconcile being welcome with being told your desires are a mortal sin, but what the pope said:
God made you this way
That marks a very specific change in thought, and goes against what the catholic church has taught for centuries.
That sounds like something the Pope would say. The only difference is the notion of choice in being gay, but I don't this Pope ever said it was a choice and his expectation is still likely that gay people keep it in their pants. I don;t think this Pope or other Catholics believe this sin is any more serious than any other. Whether that means it's a mortal sin or whatever is irrelevant because sex sins are easily forgivable. The point is that the church does not teach it being a choice, that has huge implications on the nature of it being a sin
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Post by captainbryce on May 24, 2018 20:13:31 GMT
That sounds like something the Pope would say. The only difference is the notion of choice in being gay, but I don't this Pope ever said it was a choice and his expectation is still likely that gay people keep it in their pants. I don;t think this Pope or other Catholics believe this sin is any more serious than any other. Whether that means it's a mortal sin or whatever is irrelevant because sex sins are easily forgivable. The point is that the church does not teach it being a choice, that has huge implications on the nature of it being a sin Such as? Are you suggesting that the Pope is all of a sudden removing homosexuality off the sins list?
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Post by gadreel on May 24, 2018 20:18:16 GMT
The point is that the church does not teach it being a choice, that has huge implications on the nature of it being a sin Such as? Are you suggesting that the Pope is all of a sudden removing homosexuality off the sins list? I am suggesting that it is a start, if the Pope believes it is the way God™ made him, then the logical conclusion is that God™ wanted him to be gay, if God™ wanted it how can it be a sin. as for all of a sudden, please refer to my comment regarding change and institutionaliastion
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Post by captainbryce on May 24, 2018 22:03:45 GMT
Such as? Are you suggesting that the Pope is all of a sudden removing homosexuality off the sins list? I am suggesting that it is a start, if the Pope believes it is the way God™ made him, then the logical conclusion is that God™ wanted him to be gay, if God™ wanted it how can it be a sin. as for all of a sudden, please refer to my comment regarding change and institutionaliastion Do you think God changes his mind about sins? Like something can be a sin one day, and then a hundred years from now it’s no longer a sin?
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Post by gadreel on May 24, 2018 22:16:23 GMT
I am suggesting that it is a start, if the Pope believes it is the way God™ made him, then the logical conclusion is that God™ wanted him to be gay, if God™ wanted it how can it be a sin. as for all of a sudden, please refer to my comment regarding change and institutionaliastion Do you think God changes his mind about sins? Like something can be a sin one day, and then a hundred years from now it’s no longer a sin? He may do, I must confess I have never read anything written by God™, nor have I ever spoken to him directly.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 1:18:19 GMT
I'm not Roman Catholic, but a response from someone who is (whatever that's worth to you heathens):
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Post by goz on May 25, 2018 1:36:24 GMT
I'm not Roman Catholic, but a response from someone who is (whatever that's worth to you heathens): Are you not capable of framing a post in words making any relevant points?
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 1:39:07 GMT
I'm not Roman Catholic, but a response from someone who is (whatever that's worth to you heathens): Are you not capable of framing a post in words making any relevant points? Just sharing a video, Ms. Crabby.
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Post by goz on May 25, 2018 3:31:41 GMT
Are you not capable of framing a post in words making any relevant points? Just sharing a video, Ms. Crabby. So, do you have any comments on the content?
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Post by FridayOnElmStreet on May 25, 2018 5:34:08 GMT
I think its about time for relgions to dich the anti gay crap.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2018 11:00:56 GMT
I would say if people are born with it the [sic]. It’s the parents fault. Fault for what? Hereditary traits (i.e. those which one are born with) are part of all humans' 'design' equally, and as such stem from much earlier provenance. This sort of special pleading, if blame is to be attached, rather lets any original Creator off lightly. I was just saying parents are responsible for the hereditary traits. Ignore the word "fault" as it was simply matching up with the notion of it's God's fault gay people exist. I can only assume we won't agree (Amnesiac arguments assuming omniscience & omnipotence incoming...) on the notion that people are imperfect and, as such create any number of things apart from the ideal which is precisely why every individual is equal and free to make whatever choices in life they want to.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2018 11:11:27 GMT
That sounds like something the Pope would say. The only difference is the notion of choice in being gay, but I don't this Pope ever said it was a choice and his expectation is still likely that gay people keep it in their pants. I don;t think this Pope or other Catholics believe this sin is any more serious than any other. Whether that means it's a mortal sin or whatever is irrelevant because sex sins are easily forgivable. The point is that the church does not teach it being a choice, that has huge implications on the nature of it being a sin
Being gay probably isn't a sin. I think people insist on the notion that you are the sex you have while being offended when I actually say it out loud. In any event, the pope did not move the bar one inch toward changes in action which is what the sin is. Sex outside of marriage remains a sin, gay marriage is not a thing in the Catholic Church, & people can still be forgiven for the sin. We know for a fact they have thought this for decades by the protection they gave for gay priests diddling boys and the existence of gay priests now.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 25, 2018 11:16:12 GMT
Fault for what? Hereditary traits (i.e. those which one are born with) are part of all humans' 'design' equally, and as such stem from much earlier provenance. This sort of special pleading, if blame is to be attached, rather lets any original Creator off lightly. I was just saying parents are responsible for the hereditary traits. And I was just saying that inherited traits do not just stretch back one generation. Fair enough. On the contrary, and I doubt anyone could be found anywhere to argue that people are perfect. I would agree with this too.
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