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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2018 12:42:03 GMT
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2018 12:43:54 GMT
I was just saying parents are responsible for the hereditary traits. Ignore the word "fault" as it was simply matching up with the notion of it's God's fault gay people exist. I can only assume we won't agree (Amnesiac arguments assuming omniscience & omnipotence incoming...) on the notion that people are imperfect and, as such create any number of things apart from the ideal which is precisely why every individual is equal and free to make whatever choices in life they want to. What aspect within the hereditary traits are the parents responsible for homosexual children? Are you saying that the genetics combined, that create homosexual children from a heterosexual coupling are a flaw and not what God meant to happen, so it's not really God's fault? People would have to explain why God, over a direct lineage or environment would have a greater impact.
People can argue any number of semantic to blame God simply by the fact that people aren't perfect as a result of him setting a standard for what perfection is.
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Post by Terrapin Station on May 25, 2018 12:49:38 GMT
Your third point irks the shit our of me and is typical of (thankfully rare outside this board) anti religionist hypocrisy. Everyone wants the church to evolve and move with the times, but when there is a hint they do they bleat like pigs about how the church mush be false because they are rethinking their moral stance. Pick an option and stick with it. We're probably not talking about the same people in both sides of that equation, no?
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Post by Terrapin Station on May 25, 2018 12:52:37 GMT
Anyway, repeating what I said in another recent thread about this:
First, I find it annoying that it would matter to anyone, for anything, whether it's a "choice" or not.
The idea that it would matter implies that people can't choose unusual behavior, unusual lifestyles, etc. for themselves without being justifiably harassed, discriminated against, etc., which is offensive bullshit.
In any event, beliefs, dispositions, tastes etc. wouldn't be a choice in the sense of choosing items from a lunch menu, but I believe that at least some of those things, for at least some people, can be influenced over time by experiences, by critical thought, by carefully selected behavior, and so on.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 25, 2018 13:17:01 GMT
People would have to explain why God, over a direct lineage or environment would have a greater impact. Simply put it is because God, we are told, is the greatest of all things, and indeed one ought not to be able imagine anything greater. This means, ultimately He is the greatest source of hereditary factors. Unless you wish to argue that hereditary transmission by human means is at any times greater than the original design and foresight of your supposed deity. It is a fact that your alleged perfect god made everything, even if it is "very good" rather than perfect in itself. So yes, God is responsible for our imperfections.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2018 13:35:03 GMT
FilmFlaneurSomething being greater than us has no ties to having greater responsibility for us. God doesn't have to do anything in relation to our existence just because he may have started the possibility for that existence. That would be a false expectation. Well, that's the same as blaming him for having standards at all. There is not an issue regarding imperfection being a result of God's standards not being met, only that being gay is not a particularly special category away from any other deviation form the norm. It doesn't change the blessings gained or the standards to uphold/ignore/refuse.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 25, 2018 14:07:15 GMT
FilmFlaneur Something being greater than us has no ties to having greater responsibility for us. God doesn't have to do anything in relation to our existence just because he may have started the possibility for that existence. If you are now arguing that your purported deity really is irresponsible, then so be it. In which case such a deity is much more blameworthy, imho. And if I ever say that "God has to do" anything, (which is not the same as what one might expect He ' ought to do',) feel free to raise your above point again. (It might be observed though that, as JC's - er God's - parable of the Good Samaritan shows, sometimes not acting - in the case of suffering for instance, is not commendable). The issue of having to anything, or not, is in any case not relevant to considering whether whether we the product most of a one-generation hereditary trail or, ultimately through the creation of your supposed god. For either your god stands at the head of all creation ... or it does not. In this case, it appears his 'standard' was imperfection as all things were made merely "very good". One can certainly go on and ask why a perfect being would rely on the imperfect to achieve something when anything perfect, by definition, would always be expected to work better. Who, for instance is the best garage mechanic imaginable: the one who fixes your car perfectly - or the one who lets you drive off with faults that will eventually cause an accident? First off, 'normal' is not the same as common if this is what you suggest. Second, in many cases the only thing which makes homosexuality 'special' is the frequent obsession by the overly-religious with it; thirdly, in regards to the 'standards to uphold', I have already made the point that, in the case of your god's supposed creation the standard was imperfect in the first place.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2018 14:24:13 GMT
FilmFlaneurWhere does it say that he does and why do you insist on this irrational notion of someone being responsible simply because you think they have it? Not really the point. The point is what you think he ought to do is irrelevant to all except you. No really, it's just that with choice comes the possibility of imperfection. There is also the possibility of attaining perfection again though, but that has to do with the standards you don't think God ought to have, so it may not be worth talking about. I think I said norm which is quantifiable either by standards or stats. I don't care what an individual's normal is. Well, I'm not the one creating the threads, asking the questions, or looking to argue about religion's view of it, but if all of that makes me obsessed, so be it. I've lived with worse accusations. Yes, I concede that you have said this numerous times in the hopes that it becomes fact.
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Post by captainbryce on May 25, 2018 14:34:53 GMT
Are you not capable of framing a post in words making any relevant points? Just sharing a video, Ms. Crabby. Yeah, I’m with Goz. I don’t watch propaganda videos posted here in place of real arguments. I listen to arguments!
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Post by captainbryce on May 25, 2018 14:37:50 GMT
Fault for what? Hereditary traits (i.e. those which one are born with) are part of all humans' 'design' equally, and as such stem from much earlier provenance. This sort of special pleading, if blame is to be attached, rather lets any original Creator off lightly. I was just saying parents are responsible for the hereditary traits. Ignore the word "fault" as it was simply matching up with the notion of it's God's fault gay people exist. Except that it doesn’t match up. God is supposedly all powerful and doesn’t make mistakes. Humans have no control over what their offspring will look like, or what genetic conditions they will be susceptible, or what their sexual orientation will be. According to you God does, which makes any of his actions (or lack thereof) intentional. He would be 100% AT FAULT for the way people are born, NOT the parents.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 25, 2018 14:46:07 GMT
FilmFlaneur [*My last edit has changed and I tightened my views, sorry you missed that] So then, choose: on your recently expressed logic, is your supposed deity a responsible, or an irresponsible one towards His supposed creation? Whether or not this is true, I have already said this is moot to the main issue under discussion. But we are all imperfect from the outset, and always have been - and were, apparently, made that way along with the rest of creation which is just "very good". It is not a question of gaining perfection 'again'. I know Matt 5:48 says that we will be perfect; but that is irrelevant to how we have been, the point. Whatever, the point still holds. On this thread (not started by me) I did not first the raise the issue, my friend. If you feel I am incorrect, please point to the point in scripture where God looked at all things and found them "perfect". Even Psalms 18:30 merely calls God's way [process] perfect, not his work [product] - a subtle, and significant emphasis.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2018 14:49:40 GMT
I was just saying parents are responsible for the hereditary traits. Ignore the word "fault" as it was simply matching up with the notion of it's God's fault gay people exist. Except that it doesn’t match up. God is supposedly all powerful and doesn’t make mistakes. Humans have no control over what their offspring will look like, or what genetic conditions they will be susceptible, or what their sexual orientation will be. According to you God does, which makes any of his actions (or lack thereof) intentional. He would be 100% AT FAULT for the way people are born, NOT the parents. God doesn't make mistakes just because you make mistakes.
What parents choose is irrelevant since imperfection & choice allows for unknowable's.
After all, most parents wouldn't intentionally pick a gay kid, or an autistic kid, or a kid with no brain, or etc... but all of them happen and we know they scientifically happen without any regard to God existing or not (Another reason arguments like this are stupid).
It still doesn't change the notion that the only reason God would ever be responsible for "defective" children is because people place that expectation on him without actually have the intelligence or authority to actually do so which means the view holds no relevance.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 14:58:53 GMT
Just sharing a video, Ms. Crabby. Yeah, I’m with Goz. I don’t watch propaganda videos posted here in place of real arguments. I listen to arguments! Propaganda video? It's just a Catholic dude giving his thoughts (since I'm pretty sure there aren't any Catholic people here). Watch or don't. I don't give a shit.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 25, 2018 15:25:57 GMT
]God doesn't make mistakes .. So the Flood was just a big way of celebrating the success of his plan with mankind hitherto? This seems an extraordinary thing to say from a believer, since nothing happens unless it is permitted by God, either by Him allowing it - or, presumably, just not choosing to stop it. At least that nothing happens by accident is what other Christians would have it as. www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Fellowship/Nothing_Accident.html If things ever happened whether God liked it or not, then whatever happened to the claim that He is the most powerful thing imaginable? One could then also quite easily imagine a not-God which was more powerful. So there we have it, God is blameless, and effectively irresponsible, given his role in creating it all, for the things in nature that go bad. And for Cool anyhow, the worrying is moot, since everyone is too stupid and lowly to ask why. But then, er, how come in Isiah 45:7 He explicitly admits to creating (natural) evil, you know, like defective children? But then again, like people everywhere I guess I am too dim and modest to guess and should just keep quiet and prostrate myself..
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2018 16:29:34 GMT
FilmFlaneurThe flood was punishment for people (& angels) who made mistakes. God was not making mistake destroying wicked people. 1. As I always say, I rarely if ever talk to non-believers as a believer. I'm simply going off what is written or the flaws in your own argument. It is irrelevant what my beliefs are in relation to this discussion. Lets assume God doesn't exist and we are discussing a work of fiction that your are insisting on inserting into the real world. 2. God permits free will and he permits imperfect people to boink and have imperfect kids, so I'm not sure why that's an odd thing. Every Christians & Jewish denomination I have ever heard of outside of the hardcore predestination folks follow this notion that people choose their actions, so you may need to talk to more Christians or simply read the Bible. You can talk as much as you want, you just lack persuasion for your argument. Regarding Isaiah 45 specifically (I can quote it but I assume you have the same access to a Bible I have even if it's apparently just one verse at a time), he is specifically discussing a warning message and I never said that God doesn't punish wrongdoing and does so in any way he chooses, including using a pagan nation to do so. This has little to do with choices or being born into sin since one can be imperfect and righteous at the same time.
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Post by captainbryce on May 25, 2018 16:37:45 GMT
Yeah, I’m with Goz. I don’t watch propaganda videos posted here in place of real arguments. I listen to arguments! Propaganda video? It's just a Catholic dude giving his thoughts (since I'm pretty sure there aren't any Catholic people here). Watch or don't. I don't give a shit. I’m pretty sure there are. YouTube video opinions are a dime a dozen, and there is one for everything. I’d rather hear from them (who I can actually have a two way conversation with). If it’s an opinion you share, then YOU should explain what it is and why you espouse that position.
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Post by captainbryce on May 25, 2018 16:45:24 GMT
Except that it doesn’t match up. God is supposedly all powerful and doesn’t make mistakes. Humans have no control over what their offspring will look like, or what genetic conditions they will be susceptible, or what their sexual orientation will be. According to you God does, which makes any of his actions (or lack thereof) intentional. He would be 100% AT FAULT for the way people are born, NOT the parents. God doesn't make mistakes just because you make mistakes.
What parents choose is irrelevant since imperfection & choice allows for unknowable's.
After all, most parents wouldn't intentionally pick a gay kid, or an autistic kid, or a kid with no brain, or etc... but all of them happen and we know they scientifically happen without any regard to God existing or not (Another reason arguments like this are stupid).
It still doesn't change the notion that the only reason God would ever be responsible for "defective" children is because people place that expectation on him without actually have the intelligence or authority to actually do so which means the view holds no relevance.
Your argument is self defeating and illogical. You just said that God doesn’t make mistakes, yet simultaneously acknowledge that people are born gay, or with autism etc. Why wouldn’t god be to blame for this when it is within his power to prevent it? And why would the parents be to blame for it when it is not within their power to prevent it?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2018 16:55:35 GMT
God doesn't make mistakes just because you make mistakes.
What parents choose is irrelevant since imperfection & choice allows for unknowable's.
After all, most parents wouldn't intentionally pick a gay kid, or an autistic kid, or a kid with no brain, or etc... but all of them happen and we know they scientifically happen without any regard to God existing or not (Another reason arguments like this are stupid).
It still doesn't change the notion that the only reason God would ever be responsible for "defective" children is because people place that expectation on him without actually have the intelligence or authority to actually do so which means the view holds no relevance.
Your argument is self defeating and illogical. You just said that God doesn’t make mistakes, yet simultaneously acknowledge that people are born gay, or with autism etc. Why wouldn’t god be to blame for this when it is within his power to prevent it? And why would the parents be to blame for it when it is not within their power to prevent it? You are making a giant leap in assumption that I think flawed people are made by God as opposed to their own flaws.
Why would you do that?
It's ok for you to think that, I can't figure out a reason I would agree with that irrational assessment.
Parents can prevent anything by not having kids. If a couple want kids then they sign up for the risks that come with that responsibility.
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Post by captainbryce on May 25, 2018 18:30:24 GMT
Your argument is self defeating and illogical. You just said that God doesn’t make mistakes, yet simultaneously acknowledge that people are born gay, or with autism etc. Why wouldn’t god be to blame for this when it is within his power to prevent it? And why would the parents be to blame for it when it is not within their power to prevent it? You are making a giant leap in assumption that I think flawed people are made by God as opposed to their own flaws.
Why would you do that? Probably because I thought you were a Christians ATTEMPTING to be logical (albeit failing) rather than just being stupid! Because that’s what your argument demands at this point, stupidity! If God didn’t make people, who did (according to you)? Parents can prevent anything by not having kids. If a couple want kids then they sign up for the risks that come with that responsibility. Irrelevant. Parents don’t intentionally set out to have flawed kids when they decide to start a family. The assumption is that their kids will be normal. So again, I ask you as a Christian, does God play any role whatsoever in the creation of children?
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Post by goz on May 25, 2018 21:13:07 GMT
Yeah, I’m with Goz. I don’t watch propaganda videos posted here in place of real arguments. I listen to arguments! Propaganda video? It's just a Catholic dude giving his thoughts (since I'm pretty sure there aren't any Catholic people here). Watch or don't. I don't give a shit. I DID watch it, out of interest and IMHO it is a propaganda video. There are heaps of Catholic people here. Why did you bother to post it if you 1. don't care whether or not anyone watches it. 2. don't make any comment on the content upon which discussion can be based ie the whole point of this message board.
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