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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 16:45:30 GMT
Uhmm...ok? Based from that person's question it a doesn't seem like they had an issue regarding diversity. The question they ask is about why pushing an agenda became more important than making a good movie and well-made and characters. That doesn't mean they're against diversity. So what agenda is s/he against exactly? Because, when I say "diversity" I'm referring to the overall phantom "SJW" agenda that some Star Wars fans seem to be against in TLJ but, if you say they aren't, then I guess they aren't. I really don't have a dog in the SW fight so it's your party, man. There's a difference between having "diversity" in a movie and "sacrificing story and characterization just to highlight diversity". I don't think anyone was complaining about the former.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 6, 2018 16:53:48 GMT
So what agenda is s/he against exactly? Because, when I say "diversity" I'm referring to the overall phantom "SJW" agenda that some Star Wars fans seem to be against in TLJ but, if you say they aren't, then I guess they aren't. I really don't have a dog in the SW fight so it's your party, man. There's a difference between having "diversity" in a movie and "sacrificing story and characterization just to highlight diversity". I don't think anyone was complaining about the former. How can you demonstrably prove that the presence of diversity had a direct correlation with a lack of quality storytelling? Isn't it possible that the storytelling was poor in spite of the diversity and not because of it? No matter how you frame this, to the general public, it just looks like traditionalist fans are against diversity in Star Wars films.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 17:05:52 GMT
I see where you're going with this... Star Wars was a pioneering movie, both in terms of FX and blockbuster movie making. So, with respect, that question is irrelevant. You can't play that particular card to defend the sequels. No. The sequels cannot break the same ground therefore they cannot live up to the same expectations. But that does NOT excuse weak story telling, awful characterization and blatant rehashing. Yes, Disney was in a tough position from a story telling and movie making standpoint. But that's not a complete defense for sequels that have been lazy, generic, hacky, and pandering. I'm not defending the sequels, prequels or any Star Wars content for that matter. My absolute favorite Star Wars film is now Rouge One. Where can Star Wars go as an ongoing saga that is even mildly relevant to anyone circa 2018? The idea of beanie-sporting evil empires and scrappy rebels is a bit quaint in a post-911 world. Even as pure escapism, the idea of an entire universe peopled by a single royal family and a revolving door of their supporting characters and enemies is laughable. Today our adversaries are unseen; they operate in shadow. Modern warfare is profoundly asymmetrical - the opposition doesn't come strolling onto the field sporting branded S&M gear while giving half-baked motivational speeches and twirling their handlebars. They ship YA novels with less didactic themes. This new world belongs to the omnipresent, headless cartels, insurgents and terror agents --- and their way is suffering and darkness. Thematically, and this is me not having a dog in the fight, Star Wars has all of the sophistication of an O'Henry novel. Somewhere, someone somehow will turn out to be some else's, long-lost brother or sister --- and, isn't it a hoot though? The concepts of faith and balance are lost on a hyper-connected, data-driven generation that trusts their next Facebook update more than they ever would a priest or some old chubby guy wearing a hood. Star Wars needed to be rebooted, not repackaged. In the immortal words of Ultron, "you want to save your fandom, but you don't want it to change." I disagree with all your points here. 1) Changing Star Wars to be more "relevant" to the modern world is absurd. War never changes. And this is fantasy anyway. Besides superpowers like Russia and China are still more of a threat than any ragtag third world malcontents that people are so stupidly afraid of nowadays. And Star Wars DID in fact pander to millennials. That's why we got so much cringe worthy meta humor. 2) The suggestion that Star Wars should be rebooted just shows a complete lack of respect for the original creative achievement. I mean, at least Disney had enough sense not to go that route. The suggestion itself is obscene. 3) Sounds like you never liked the franchise to begin with. So why are you even making this argument? How could I expect you to understand when you're not even a fan of the movies we are discussing?
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 6, 2018 17:18:05 GMT
I'm not defending the sequels, prequels or any Star Wars content for that matter. My absolute favorite Star Wars film is now Rouge One. Where can Star Wars go as an ongoing saga that is even mildly relevant to anyone circa 2018? The idea of beanie-sporting evil empires and scrappy rebels is a bit quaint in a post-911 world. Even as pure escapism, the idea of an entire universe peopled by a single royal family and a revolving door of their supporting characters and enemies is laughable. Today our adversaries are unseen; they operate in shadow. Modern warfare is profoundly asymmetrical - the opposition doesn't come strolling onto the field sporting branded S&M gear while giving half-baked motivational speeches and twirling their handlebars. They ship YA novels with less didactic themes. This new world belongs to the omnipresent, headless cartels, insurgents and terror agents --- and their way is suffering and darkness. Thematically, and this is me not having a dog in the fight, Star Wars has all of the sophistication of an O'Henry novel. Somewhere, someone somehow will turn out to be some else's, long-lost brother or sister --- and, isn't it a hoot though? The concepts of faith and balance are lost on a hyper-connected, data-driven generation that trusts their next Facebook update more than they ever would a priest or some old chubby guy wearing a hood. Star Wars needed to be rebooted, not repackaged. In the immortal words of Ultron, "you want to save your fandom, but you don't want it to change." I disagree with all your points here. 1) Changing Star Wars to be more "relevant" to the modern world is absurd. War never changes. And this is fantasy anyway. Besides superpowers like Russia and China are still more of a threat than any ragtag third world malcontents that people are so stupidly afraid of nowadays. 2) The suggestion that Star Wars should be rebooted just shows a complete lack of respect for the original creative achievement. I mean, at least Disney had enough sense not to go that route. The suggestion itself is obscene. 3) Sounds like you never liked the franchise to begin with. So why are you even making this argument? How could o expect you to understand when you're not even a fan of the movies we are discussing? It's true, I'm not as close to Star Wars as some. I do respect the need for tradition in beloved franchises. I also recognize when modern audiences aren't connecting with something. I have many friends who are casual Star Wars fans that cite the same issues with the franchise repeatedly. Star Wars doesn't really live up to the Wars part of its name. It's more like Star Skirmishes or Star Disagreements. The next notable comment is that the Star Wars universe feels small despite it being a galaxy-spanning saga because of its reliance on a few principal characters. Don't shoot the messenger, Lord Akbar. I have great respect for the original trilogy, and Episode III is one of my favorite films. Rouge One is my new favorite Star Wars film because, in my opinion, it balanced a modern vision of the franchise with classical storytelling - the stakes couldn't be hire and victory came at the ultimate price.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 17:20:37 GMT
There's a difference between having "diversity" in a movie and "sacrificing story and characterization just to highlight diversity". I don't think anyone was complaining about the former. How can you demonstrably prove that the presence of diversity had a direct correlation with a lack of quality storytelling? Isn't it possible that the storytelling was poor in spite of the diversity and not because of it? No matter how you frame this, to the general public, it just looks like traditionalist fans are against diversity in Star Wars films. Now now, don't twist my words around. I never said that the presence of diversity resulted in poor storytelling and characterization. I'm saying no one was complaining about diversity. They complained that storytelling and characterization were poorly done, seemingly in the effort to highlight diversity. There are many instances where this was obvious but I can give you three specific examples. One of the goals of the movie was obviously to have more women in the movie and give them more powerful roles right? That's the "diversity" part and I don't believe anyone really complained about that. What people complained about was that in the act of trying to make the women seem more powerful, they also portrayed every man as either a villain, selfish, brash or just plain incompetent. Even if it meant completely changing the personalities of male characters that were already established in previous movies. - character failure In their goal to give women more powerful roles, they ended up giving them powers that just plain didn't make sense. Leia surviving and flying in outerspace, Rey being good at everything without putting much effort into it, etc. And these complaints would still be valid even if these characters were male. - storytelling and character failure Creating the character of Rose was not an issue. What was an issue is them creating a completely unnecessary side quest just to give her more emphasis, a sidequest that took time, time that could have been spent fleshing out the main plot instead. - storytelling failure Those are just 3 examples (there are many more) where they sacrificed proper storytelling and character development in order to highlight their so-called "agenda". Now, you may or may not agree with this and that's fine, but I'm simply clarifying what the post that you linked was complaining about. This is what it was complaining about, not diversity in itself.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Jul 6, 2018 17:30:20 GMT
I think Lucas screwed Star Wars' future with Return of the Jedi. If he really intended to do sequels, it probably would have been better to follow the plan that Kurtz said was the original one-since it would have ensured a suspenseful run of three more movies. So Vader dies at the end of Jedi, Han dies, Luke is off on his own with new characters for 7-9. The Empire is not finally defeated until Episode 9 when the Emperor is killed (presumably with help from the mysterious Other he had to seek out). It would have also followed a traditional serial pattern since the main bad guy is not finally dealt with until the very end.
His decision to shift the story to a family conflict shrank the plot dimensions, and also the universe.
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Post by charzhino on Jul 6, 2018 17:31:30 GMT
Forcing Tran into the movie to checklist the first asian character in the saga. Nothing inherently wrong with that. The issue comes from how they handle her character, Rose.
She has no use in the main plot, however they need to show the world how progressive they are, they contrived a stupid, side quest story for her just to give some screen time. Screen time that would be better served focusing on Rey/Luke/Kylo. She is only in the film because she is a fat, asian girl.
If you want an example of how to properly do it, look at Short Rounds character in Indiana Jones, Temple of Doom. A few did label his character annoying but he serves his purpose in the story very well and becomes a great sidekick to Indy and where a good father figure plot is developed by the end. No one complained about forced diversity because he was chinese.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 17:43:16 GMT
I disagree with all your points here. 1) Changing Star Wars to be more "relevant" to the modern world is absurd. War never changes. And this is fantasy anyway. Besides superpowers like Russia and China are still more of a threat than any ragtag third world malcontents that people are so stupidly afraid of nowadays. 2) The suggestion that Star Wars should be rebooted just shows a complete lack of respect for the original creative achievement. I mean, at least Disney had enough sense not to go that route. The suggestion itself is obscene. 3) Sounds like you never liked the franchise to begin with. So why are you even making this argument? How could o expect you to understand when you're not even a fan of the movies we are discussing? It's true, I'm not as close to Star Wars as some. I do respect the need for tradition in beloved franchises. I also recognize when modern audiences aren't connecting with something. I have many friends who are casual Star Wars fans that cite the same issues with the franchise repeatedly. Star Wars doesn't really live up to the Wars part of its name. It's more like Star Skirmishes or Star Disagreements. The next notable comment is that the Star Wars universe feels small despite it being a galaxy-spanning saga because of its reliance on a few principal characters. Don't shoot the messenger, Lord Akbar. I have great respect for the original trilogy, and Episode III is one of my favorite films. Rouge One is my new favorite Star Wars film because, in my opinion, it balanced a modern vision of the franchise with classical storytelling - the stakes couldn't be hire and victory came at the ultimate price. I appologize for coming across as too harsh in that last post. I just get passionate about my Star Wars. Just to circle back to my original point though- I feel like Disney was approaching this thing purely as a commodity. I am okay with creative decisions that I disagree with, but in this case I view it more as a larger symptom of modern Hollywood: Basically just steal a beloved franchise and remake, reboot and rake in the cash. I really hated seeing that done to Star Wars. And I hate when people label everyone who feels this way as "toxic" Of course we will all have our own opinions on what they should've done.... But I just can't get over how soulless the whole endeavor seemed to be. I actually don't like the prequels all that much. But at least they were (mostly) done in the interest of telling a story and not purely to make money.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 17:46:03 GMT
I think Lucas screwed Star Wars' future with Return of the Jedi. If he really intended to do sequels, it probably would have been better to follow the plan that Kurtz said was the original one-since it would have ensured a suspenseful run of three more movies. So Vader dies at the end of Jedi, Han dies, Luke is off on his own with new characters for 7-9. The Empire is not finally defeated until Episode 9 when the Emperor is killed (presumably with help from the mysterious Other he had to seek out). It would have also followed a traditional serial pattern since the main bad guy is not finally dealt with until the very end. His decision to shift the story to a family conflict shrank the plot dimensions, and also the universe. I think the series was over when Kurtz left. He really doesn't get enough credit for the first trilogy. I wish he and Lucas had never split.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jul 6, 2018 18:23:25 GMT
It's true, I'm not as close to Star Wars as some. I do respect the need for tradition in beloved franchises. I also recognize when modern audiences aren't connecting with something. I have many friends who are casual Star Wars fans that cite the same issues with the franchise repeatedly. Star Wars doesn't really live up to the Wars part of its name. It's more like Star Skirmishes or Star Disagreements. The next notable comment is that the Star Wars universe feels small despite it being a galaxy-spanning saga because of its reliance on a few principal characters. Don't shoot the messenger, Lord Akbar. I have great respect for the original trilogy, and Episode III is one of my favorite films. Rouge One is my new favorite Star Wars film because, in my opinion, it balanced a modern vision of the franchise with classical storytelling - the stakes couldn't be hire and victory came at the ultimate price. I appologize for coming across as too harsh in that last post. I just get passionate about my Star Wars. Just to circle back to my original point though- I feel like Disney was approaching this thing purely as a commodity. I am okay with creative decisions that I disagree with, but in this case I view it more as a larger symptom of modern Hollywood: Basically just steal a beloved franchise and remake, reboot and rake in the cash. I really hated seeing that done to Star Wars. And I hate when people label everyone who feels this way as "toxic" Of course we will all have our own opinions on what they should've done.... But I just can't get over how soulless the whole endeavor seemed to be. I actually don't like the prequels all that much. But at least they were (mostly) done in the interest of telling a story and not purely to make money. It's annoying when everyone who disliked TLJ gets lumped together and referred to as toxic; especially when those people don't understand what I'm complaining about. Look, I can go on at length about everything I hated about TLJ, but that doesn't make me toxic. There's a difference between hating on the film when the conversation arises, and hounding actors on twitter, etc. Every fan is within their rights to complain about creative decisions and of course some people are going to take it too far. However, labeling every negative opinion as 'toxic' is the lazy way of dealing with criticism. Makes sense considering everything about TLJ was done in a half ass manner. Why blame yourself for your failures; it's the audience of 40 years who "doesn't get it."
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 18:26:33 GMT
I appologize for coming across as too harsh in that last post. I just get passionate about my Star Wars. Just to circle back to my original point though- I feel like Disney was approaching this thing purely as a commodity. I am okay with creative decisions that I disagree with, but in this case I view it more as a larger symptom of modern Hollywood: Basically just steal a beloved franchise and remake, reboot and rake in the cash. I really hated seeing that done to Star Wars. And I hate when people label everyone who feels this way as "toxic" Of course we will all have our own opinions on what they should've done.... But I just can't get over how soulless the whole endeavor seemed to be. I actually don't like the prequels all that much. But at least they were (mostly) done in the interest of telling a story and not purely to make money. It's annoying when everyone who disliked TLJ gets lumped together and referred to as toxic; especially when those people don't understand what I'm complaining about. Look, I can go on at length about everything I hated about TLJ, but that doesn't make me toxic. There's a difference between hating on the film when the conversation arises, and hounding actors on twitter, etc. Every fan is within their rights to complain about creative decisions and of course some people are going to take it too far. However, labeling every negative opinion as 'toxic' is the lazy way of dealing with criticism. Makes sense considering everything about TLJ was done in a half ass manner. Why blame yourself for your failures; it's the audience of 40 years who "doesn't get it." I know exactly how you feel. I've done my best to elaborate as eloquently as I can what I didn't like about the movie, I still get lumped in as just another crazy hater.
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Post by Vassaggo on Jul 6, 2018 18:59:52 GMT
I have more of a Problem with TLJ, that anytime you thought you were going to get a continuation or answer to something brought up in The Force Awakens you either get a slap in the face or a complete and total let down. It seems that Rian Johnson went out of his way to do this every time.
I don't agree with the agenda pushing bit. I can see where people believe that, I just personally don't agree with it. TLJ was very divisive without throwing a conspiracy to shove sjw themes in your face. I am a conservative on a lot of issues, but when I see the new movies I don't see the SJW thing.
I see Force Awakens as a blatant retelling of A New Hope (for good and bad reasons) with a few new threads that were interesting. The Mary Sue nature of Rey is over blown. Especially the final fight. If you re-watch it you see that Kylo has a severe stomach wound from a bow caster. A weapon that you've seen more than a couple of times in the movie blow armored Storm Troopers and normal people flying when hit. (So massively powerful and Kylo got hit directly) Yet minutes after Kylo is hit he is fighting. Not only is he fighting with it he is hitting it to get more angry. Which would make him more powerful but less controlled. You can see this with the brief fight with Finn. Finn gets a shoulder hit with a weapon he's only tried to use one other time. So either Kylo's fighting training was kind of shitty. (He was trained by a Master who never finished his training and took up Light Sabre way older than most) or the Blast fucked him up more the people realize. (Kylo also isn't fighting to kill her. He wants to turn her. He even tells her he wants to teach her) Also Rey's fight with Kylo is a cluster fuck until she calms down and does what Maz tells her to do and let the force flow in her. After that her style is still horrible. That last part of the fight is against an Injured Sith, who just killed his father and still conflicted. (He says it will help him complete his turn but you see this isn't so in TLJ when he doesn't fire on his mom) vs a untrained Force User with a stronger connection to the force at that time (because of his conflicted nature). That's it. As for her being a Mary Sue with tech she does make one mistake on the Falcon hitting the wrong breaker. If you think about it her being a tech genius is explained. She was left on a hostile planet with hostile people at a young age. If she wasn't a tech guru she would've died young. And with her being able to fly and fix the falcon she has some problems with this at the beginning. Also you know from expository dialogue she was familiar with the Falcon because she disagreed with what was done to it. The compressor. I think people wanted to hate Rey from the beginning and found reasons too.
I see 1 good side story Rogue One. Rogue One had problems too. Honestly those problems are glossed over with people liking K-2SO and the last 15 minutes of a movie. The Darth Vader scene gave him his balls back after the prequels kind of neutered him.
The other side story, Solo, feels nothing like Star Wars movie. Honestly Solo could've been any random generic sci-fantasy movie if you changed the characters names and settings.
The Last Jedi, honestly feels like a big fuck you to fans, but not because of a Diversity push. It feels like to be edgy and new type of Star Wars story, every decision was to feint or misdirect. It starts off with Luke tossing the light sabre. This was a misdirect from TFA. It was built up to that meeting and then when we finally get to see it, it goes the opposite what we thought. Hell every scene with Luke and Rey felt like a lets do the opposite of what everyone expects. In all the other Star Wars the cocky guy is trashed talked to, by a woman, but in the end his cockiness saves the day. I don't think this was done to make the Guy look stupid but to misdirect. You have another charming scoundrel in Del Torro, but this time DJ double crosses another misdirect. You have Poe's mutiny against a woman not to show him as a bumbling idiot, but to have the reveal that there was a plan. Another misdirect. You have the Force Projection of Luke again as another misdirect. If you believe Rey's feelings and Kylo's reading of them her parents were no one special another misdirect. Kylo's remembering of what Luke did another misdirect. I don't have a problem with Luke having 3 secs of doubt btw. Finn and Rose failing at their mission with the betrayal of DJ another misdirect. Snoke dying so easily by Kylo another misdirect. Kylo not turning is the only time that a misdirect would've worked but nope everyone knew he would go farther in the Dark side. I also don't have a problem with Rey being a nobody if true. Snoke gave a decent enough explanation of her massive connection to the force. When a dark side power rises (Snoke and Kylo) the force brings a Light Side power up... Rey. He thought it would be Skywalker but it wasn't. In the end I think people want to blame the use of diversity (or see an agenda) as the reason TLJ failed. I think it failed because it tried to be so edgy and go this way when other SW movies went the other way. To me it was like Rian Johnson summoned his inner Shyamalan. And not the Shyamalan from The Sixth Sense, Unbreakable, and Split. The Shayamalan from when he felt crushed by the reputation of having good twists and turns.
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Post by summers8 on Jul 6, 2018 19:11:51 GMT
gotta love how the disney machine is attacking star wars fans to deflect their garbage disney star wars movies. gunn works for disney yeah?
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Post by Vassaggo on Jul 6, 2018 19:17:32 GMT
gotta love how the disney machine is attacking star wars fans to deflect their garbage disney star wars movies. gunn works for disney yeah? Dude, Disney could literally fund the experiment that came up with the cure for cancer, and you'd find fault.
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Post by Vassaggo on Jul 6, 2018 19:19:34 GMT
gotta love how the disney machine is attacking star wars fans to deflect their garbage disney star wars movies. gunn works for disney yeah? Dude, Disney could literally fund the experiment that came up with the cure for cancer, and you'd find fault. Shit, man, that was pissy. I found out some shitty news today and on dilaudid that was uncalled for. Sorry.
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Post by ThatGuy on Jul 6, 2018 20:37:18 GMT
"GO TO THERAPY", Mr Gunn must know what he is talking about. After all he gave the world the juvenile dreck a la " Dance Off, you big turd blossom", "Hahaha, I have famously huge turds." "Awwww, my sensitive nipples", "Did you create a penis?", "I'm Mary Poppins y'all" etc. Nothing less than the invention of the raccoon turd - therapy-worthy indeed. Not to forget about his idiot-insert constantly bullying a female character with how ugly she is, and all that culminating in the hyper-misogynist " Don't believe in yourself, believes in me who believes in you"...! You heard it, your MAN defines your self worth, gals. In view of this and the lowbrow fanbase Mr Gunn and his ilk pander to I will lower myself in employing his bottom of-the-barrel penis, turd & nipples output: Dear mr Gunn, I sincerely hope you are in good therapy...and someone threw away the key. I like how the Gunn says that toxic fans need help for attacking people over a movie and this turd attacks him.
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Post by ThatGuy on Jul 6, 2018 20:40:37 GMT
Now if you don't like Disney Star Wars you're labeled mentally ill. This guy is paid by Disney. Forgive me if I roll my eyes. He's talking about any movie. Be it DCEU, the recent Ghostbusters, Gone with the Wind, Troll 2. It doesn't matter.
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Post by gromel on Jul 7, 2018 7:56:49 GMT
Simple: If you don't like what Star Wars has become, just quit and ignore it... and perhaps wait for Dune to show how it's done. Long live the fighters.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jul 7, 2018 8:34:12 GMT
Now if you don't like Disney Star Wars you're labeled mentally ill. This guy is paid by Disney. Forgive me if I roll my eyes. He's talking about any movie. Be it DCEU, the recent Ghostbusters, Gone with the Wind, Troll 2. It doesn't matter. nope, reading comprehension for dummies: Quote: "If your self-esteem depends on how good you think the current Star Wars is, or your childhood is ruined because you don’t like something in a movie, GO TO THERAPY." Your old context reading and text comprehension issues rear again. There is a THERAPY for that too btw, why not take the advise of your lowbrow MCU guru?
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Post by Vassaggo on Jul 7, 2018 8:34:35 GMT
Simple: If you don't like what Star Wars has become, just quit and ignore it... and perhaps wait for Dune to show how it's done. Long live the fighters. One, really appreciates your level headed suggestion. There is just one problem. Level headed suggestions are not accepted in any Fandom, but even more so with Star Wars fandom.
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