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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 3, 2018 17:42:38 GMT
Of course this is untrue. There are not parts you believe and parts you don't believe? There are not parts you yourself decide are allegorical and other parts you yourself decide are literal? Why would I have the ability to decide that?
The Bible itself makes clear what the writers think is allegory, prophecy, parable, proverb, song, or real.
Even when there are questions of what is literal or symbolic, it doesn't change the inherent theme of scripture across both the Hebrew & Christian texts which is what this thread is about.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 3, 2018 20:38:53 GMT
If Christians truly wanted to be taken serious they'd ditch the old book. Seriously. It's an adverb. Serious is an adjective. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2018 6:18:15 GMT
Yes... Jesus came in, said bollocks to that old pony, it's not working out is it🤷
My old man sent me with the new deal... Here's the Lords Prayer you need, love God, love each other, stop judging each other, be excellent to each other, and we're all good... Right, got that, good, adios👍
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Aug 5, 2018 13:59:57 GMT
Jesus said he came to fulfill the prophet's words about a coming Messiah. He's the son of God.
However, is there anyone who has read the Torah or Old Testament and then read the New Testament and thought, "is this the same God?"
I'm not trying to be blasphemous or anything, this is just a discussion. However, when I read about the way God destroys Sodom in the Old Testament, kills off entire tribes of people, and so on.
Then you read about Jesus in the New Testament, "Love Everyone. Pray for your enemies. If you only love those who love you, what reward is there in that?" And when Peter cut off the ear of a solider, Jesus picks up the ear of the man and heals it. Then tells Peter, "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword."
Now, I know that the belief is God had to be a certain way at the beginning of mankind. Once Jesus came along, it was to change everything. So his message was God's new covenant with mankind.
However, is there, or are there people out there who does or knows of someone who only believes in the New Testament and doesn't even read or believe the Old Testament?
I know Jewish people only believe the Old Testament. When somebody rants that Islam alone hates gays and wants to murder apostates, and it is pointed out that the Old Testament has the same wording about gays and apostates as Islamophobes accuse Muslims of, the chorus invariably goes that Christianity is ONLY the New Testament and the Old Testament has nothing to do with Christianity. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 5, 2018 14:10:26 GMT
Jesus said he came to fulfill the prophet's words about a coming Messiah. He's the son of God.
However, is there anyone who has read the Torah or Old Testament and then read the New Testament and thought, "is this the same God?"
I'm not trying to be blasphemous or anything, this is just a discussion. However, when I read about the way God destroys Sodom in the Old Testament, kills off entire tribes of people, and so on.
Then you read about Jesus in the New Testament, "Love Everyone. Pray for your enemies. If you only love those who love you, what reward is there in that?" And when Peter cut off the ear of a solider, Jesus picks up the ear of the man and heals it. Then tells Peter, "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword."
Now, I know that the belief is God had to be a certain way at the beginning of mankind. Once Jesus came along, it was to change everything. So his message was God's new covenant with mankind.
However, is there, or are there people out there who does or knows of someone who only believes in the New Testament and doesn't even read or believe the Old Testament?
I know Jewish people only believe the Old Testament. When somebody rants that Islam alone hates gays and wants to murder apostates, and it is pointed out that the Old Testament has the same wording about gays and apostates as Islamophobes accuse Muslims of, the chorus invariably goes that Christianity is ONLY the New Testament and the Old Testament has nothing to do with Christianity. Most Christians are aware that the NT condemns immorality too. |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Aug 5, 2018 14:17:43 GMT
It's possible to believe whatever you want. It's possible to believe leprechauns live in your closet. I guess what you're really asking is there compelling reasons to just believe in the NT without the OT to put everything into context. Well no, but I don't think there's any good reasons to believe in the Bible in general.
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Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 5, 2018 18:29:23 GMT
Yes... Jesus came in, said bollocks to that old pony, it's not working out is it🤷 My old man sent me with the new deal... Here's the Lords Prayer you need, love God, love each other, stop judging each other, be excellent to each other, and we're all good... Right, got that, good, adios👍 Jesus said he came to fulfill the prophet's words about a coming Messiah. He's the son of God.
However, is there anyone who has read the Torah or Old Testament and then read the New Testament and thought, "is this the same God?"
I'm not trying to be blasphemous or anything, this is just a discussion. However, when I read about the way God destroys Sodom in the Old Testament, kills off entire tribes of people, and so on.
Then you read about Jesus in the New Testament, "Love Everyone. Pray for your enemies. If you only love those who love you, what reward is there in that?" And when Peter cut off the ear of a solider, Jesus picks up the ear of the man and heals it. Then tells Peter, "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword."
Now, I know that the belief is God had to be a certain way at the beginning of mankind. Once Jesus came along, it was to change everything. So his message was God's new covenant with mankind.
However, is there, or are there people out there who does or knows of someone who only believes in the New Testament and doesn't even read or believe the Old Testament?
I know Jewish people only believe the Old Testament. When somebody rants that Islam alone hates gays and wants to murder apostates, and it is pointed out that the Old Testament has the same wording about gays and apostates as Islamophobes accuse Muslims of, the chorus invariably goes that Christianity is ONLY the New Testament and the Old Testament has nothing to do with Christianity. (emphasis added) www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm |
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Post by Sarge on Apr 1, 2022 2:35:47 GMT
I believe the New Testament is written by disgruntled Jews. The Jews were never popular, they are not popular today. Christianity spread like wildfire because it's a better, easier, religion, and dumps the baggage of the Old Testament.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Apr 3, 2022 21:54:51 GMT
I believe the New Testament is written by disgruntled Jews. The Jews were never popular, they are not popular today. Christianity spread like wildfire because it's a better, easier, religion, and dumps the baggage of the Old Testament. Having read this entire thread, I saw posters that haven't been around lately. It's sad, there were some really good posters in that bunch. What happened?
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Post by Geddy on Apr 3, 2022 22:05:22 GMT
I believe the New Testament is written by disgruntled Jews. The Jews were never popular, they are not popular today. Christianity spread like wildfire because it's a better, easier, religion, and dumps the baggage of the Old lTestament. Most Christians, myself included, believe the NT is the fulfillment of the OT so you can't have one without the other. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2022 22:44:15 GMT
I believe the New Testament is written by disgruntled Jews. The Jews were never popular, they are not popular today. Christianity spread like wildfire because it's a better, easier, religion, and dumps the baggage of the Old lTestament. Most Christians, myself included, believe the NT is the fulfillment of the OT so you can't have one without the other. "Learn from the Old, live by the New."
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Post by Sarge on Apr 4, 2022 1:14:15 GMT
I believe the New Testament is written by disgruntled Jews. The Jews were never popular, they are not popular today. Christianity spread like wildfire because it's a better, easier, religion, and dumps the baggage of the Old lTestament. Most Christians, myself included, believe the NT is the fulfillment of the OT so you can't have one without the other. That's probably true about most Christians because it's the doctrine taught in Protestant and Catholic churches, but I doubt it's the view of most Biblical scholars. The god of the OT is definitely not the same as the god in the NT and the NT makes for a much simpler and easier religion. My understanding is early Christians were divided with some believing Jesus was replacing Yahweh. Some believed that God the Father of the NT was replacing Yahweh. Some believed Jesus was a prophet and not a deity. Many scholars accept that Jesus didn't think of himself as a deity.
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Post by Geddy on Apr 4, 2022 16:46:58 GMT
Most Christians, myself included, believe the NT is the fulfillment of the OT so you can't have one without the other. That's probably true about most Christians because it's the doctrine taught in Protestant and Catholic churches, but I doubt it's the view of most Biblical scholars. The god of the OT is definitely not the same as the god in the NT and the NT makes for a much simpler and easier religion. My understanding is early Christians were divided with some believing Jesus was replacing Yahweh. Some believed that God the Father of the NT was replacing Yahweh. Some believed Jesus was a prophet and not a deity. Many scholars accept that Jesus didn't think of himself as a deity. Are you a biblical scholar? Most Christians including myself don't give a shite what they presume to know about this matter. |
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Post by Sarge on Apr 4, 2022 19:19:11 GMT
That's probably true about most Christians because it's the doctrine taught in Protestant and Catholic churches, but I doubt it's the view of most Biblical scholars. The god of the OT is definitely not the same as the god in the NT and the NT makes for a much simpler and easier religion. My understanding is early Christians were divided with some believing Jesus was replacing Yahweh. Some believed that God the Father of the NT was replacing Yahweh. Some believed Jesus was a prophet and not a deity. Many scholars accept that Jesus didn't think of himself as a deity. Are you a biblical scholar? Most Christians including myself don't give a shite what they presume to know about this matter. No, I grew up in a Protestant church, 3X week + revivals + youth groups, etc. I have read the Bible cover to cover although it was decades ago. And I enjoy listening to lectures on religion by educated people. My wife is Catholic so I get a little of that too. The Bible is probably the most studied document in human history, by believers, non believers, in the context of history, as compared to other writings. If you have no interest in truth that's fine but I enjoy learning about it because it's so prominent in our culture. A lot of things I was taught about the Bible were false. I'm sure the preachers didn't mean to lie, they were just ignorant and making up excuses. We did have one preacher who had a degree in Biblical studies and used to include tidbits and corrections of the KJV while reading it and that intrigued me.
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Post by Sarge on Apr 4, 2022 19:20:50 GMT
I believe the New Testament is written by disgruntled Jews. The Jews were never popular, they are not popular today. Christianity spread like wildfire because it's a better, easier, religion, and dumps the baggage of the Old Testament. Having read this entire thread, I saw posters that haven't been around lately. It's sad, there were some really good posters in that bunch. What happened? Like all forums I suppose, some got busy with life, some grew bored of the internet, some are probably still here under new aliases.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Apr 4, 2022 19:42:37 GMT
Having read this entire thread, I saw posters that haven't been around lately. It's sad, there were some really good posters in that bunch. What happened? Like all forums I suppose, some got busy with life, some grew bored of the internet, some are probably still here under new aliases. Sometimes I debate whether or not to stop posting - I've taken a few leaves of absence - but usually I will find something of interest that convinces me to stay. And honestly, where else can I talk openly about atheism? I have two friends that are atheist, and another who is spiritual but accepts my atheism - other than that, I am surrounded by people who would not be accepting of my non-belief, and might even get testy about it. I have to watch myself around people in the community, especially when I and one atheist friend are together in public... we have to censor what we say. She is more willing to speak her mind, but I am conflict averse and never challenge anyone. Here, I can be honest and talk openly about things.
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Post by Sarge on Apr 4, 2022 19:48:55 GMT
Like all forums I suppose, some got busy with life, some grew bored of the internet, some are probably still here under new aliases. Sometimes I debate whether or not to stop posting - I've taken a few leaves of absence - but usually I will find something of interest that convinces me to stay. And honestly, where else can I talk openly about atheism? I have two friends that are atheist, and another who is spiritual but accepts my atheism - other than that, I am surrounded by people who would not be accepting of my non-belief, and might even get testy about it. I have to watch myself around people in the community, especially when I and one atheist friend are together in public... we have to censor what we say. She is more willing to speak her mind, but I am conflict averse and never challenge anyone. Here, I can be honest and talk openly about things. I live in the Bible Belt so I know what you mean. I once said The Passion of the Christ glorified suffering and thought I was going to get punched. People believe they have a god given right to preach endlessly to me but I have no right to express alternative views.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Apr 4, 2022 20:15:23 GMT
Sometimes I debate whether or not to stop posting - I've taken a few leaves of absence - but usually I will find something of interest that convinces me to stay. And honestly, where else can I talk openly about atheism? I have two friends that are atheist, and another who is spiritual but accepts my atheism - other than that, I am surrounded by people who would not be accepting of my non-belief, and might even get testy about it. I have to watch myself around people in the community, especially when I and one atheist friend are together in public... we have to censor what we say. She is more willing to speak her mind, but I am conflict averse and never challenge anyone. Here, I can be honest and talk openly about things. I live in the Bible Belt so I know what you mean. I once said The Passion of the Christ glorified suffering and thought I was going to get punched. People believe they have a god given right to preach endlessly to me but I have no right to express alternative views. Sucks, doesn't it?
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Post by Geddy on Apr 5, 2022 0:20:06 GMT
Are you a biblical scholar? Most Christians including myself don't give a shite what they presume to know about this matter. No, I grew up in a Protestant church, 3X week + revivals + youth groups, etc. I have read the Bible cover to cover although it was decades ago. And I enjoy listening to lectures on religion by educated people. My wife is Catholic so I get a little of that too. The Bible is probably the most studied document in human history, by believers, non believers, in the context of history, as compared to other writings. If you have no interest in truth that's fine but I enjoy learning about it because it's so prominent in our culture. A lot of things I was taught about the Bible were false. I'm sure the preachers didn't mean to lie, they were just ignorant and making up excuses. We did have one preacher who had a degree in Biblical studies and used to include tidbits and corrections of the KJV while reading it and that intrigued me. So what exactly do you find false about it? Just curious. |
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Post by Sarge on Apr 5, 2022 4:28:30 GMT
No, I grew up in a Protestant church, 3X week + revivals + youth groups, etc. I have read the Bible cover to cover although it was decades ago. And I enjoy listening to lectures on religion by educated people. My wife is Catholic so I get a little of that too. The Bible is probably the most studied document in human history, by believers, non believers, in the context of history, as compared to other writings. If you have no interest in truth that's fine but I enjoy learning about it because it's so prominent in our culture. A lot of things I was taught about the Bible were false. I'm sure the preachers didn't mean to lie, they were just ignorant and making up excuses. We did have one preacher who had a degree in Biblical studies and used to include tidbits and corrections of the KJV while reading it and that intrigued me. So what exactly do you find false about it? Just curious. I was taught the Bible is God's Word, given to humans to be passed down unchanged except for translation, and any alteration is a sin. The leather and paper itself were sacred. What they didn't tell us was the books are out of order, true for Old and New Testament. The books are copies of copies of copies of copies, etc., there are multiple versions of some, conflicting versions, some were modified to suit a particular political climate, and some are incomplete. That additions had been made to "tweak" the story of Jesus. That some of Paul's letters were not written by Paul. That incomplete versions were "finished" by later authors. The Gospels were written anonymously. Some of the confusing verses in the Bible are because there were no equivalent words or phrases in Greek so stories were changed or translated literally and rendered senseless. So basically you have a book of stories, with a few that are probably true-ish, some are basically parables but are presented as history, and some are little more than propaganda. They might have taught that in some churches but I assure it would have been a great shock in the churches I attended. Questioning the Bible or teachings of elders was a sin. You could ask questions but you were expected to accept the answers which very often were not very satisfying. There was no "punishment," except they would probably put you in a prayer circle and try to pray the devil out of you. At a young age, I remember pondering questions and immediately asking Jesus for forgiveness. In hindsight, maybe it was good I went to such a strict fundamentalist church because if they had been relaxed and reasonable I might never have bothered to question it.
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