schicklgruber
Junior Member
@schicklgruber
Posts: 2,003
Likes: 674
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Post by schicklgruber on Aug 8, 2018 16:11:58 GMT
Women have choices. Men have responsibility. (Parenthood)
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Aug 8, 2018 16:18:55 GMT
If you're going to primarily communicate through the captioned photos westerners call memes, at least give us some variety.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Aug 8, 2018 16:24:37 GMT
True. But then that's kinda on us, no? All the more reason for us to step up and call out the bad behavior; To differentiate ourselves from the "bad guys".
Unfortunately, the #metoo movement is a blunt instrument right now. When it becomes more clearly defined we wont have to worry as much. I think we'll come to find it as our friend too.
isn't this statement the same as telling a raped woman she was raped because her skirt was shorter than her bra or something? WHAT?! How do you figure?! In the case you posit the woman is NOT doing anything wrong. In the case I posit the men ARE doing something wrong. It's TOTALLY different! How did you understand that the whole wrong way?!
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Aug 8, 2018 16:33:49 GMT
So what you're saying is that you've been... smirk... the butt... smirk... of the joke! HA HA HAH HA HAHAH! oH I'm SoRrY! I COULDNT RESIST!
Forgive the pun. I didn't mean it (or did !?)
But in all seriousness, you've been at the receiving end of humor that offended you, so know what it like. It sucks. I was an only child of a single mom so the big joke on me was "mammas boy". It goes around.
The lesson I learned was that if I didn't like it, then probably no one else likes it either. So if I can in some way help to cut that crap, by checking myself, and by calling it out when I see someone else doing it, then that's what I'm gonna do.
What you're saying is that since you didn't do it, then you have shouldn't have to do anything about it. What a more effed up place it would be if we all thought like that.
I think you're putting words in his mouth. You said "it's on us" and he said "no, it's not" and you basically accused him of apathy, when that's very, very far away from where he was coming from. Dude, its on us to call people out for their wrong doings. If I'm a man who doesn't treat women like shit, then how can I do nothing when I see another man treating a woman like shit? Period. What are we misunderstanding here?
Its not just on the women to defend themselves. Its also on us men to help them when they're being treated like shit by other men. It's called being an ally.
If you knew of a woman who was being beaten by some jerk wouldn't you call the cops? Well, if you knew your boss was keeping women from getting promotions unless he got hand jobs in his office, and an investigator came and asked you about it, wouldn't you be like "yeah, he's a scumbag."? Unless you do something you're part of the problem not the solution.
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Post by dirtypillows on Aug 8, 2018 17:26:55 GMT
I think you're putting words in his mouth. You said "it's on us" and he said "no, it's not" and you basically accused him of apathy, when that's very, very far away from where he was coming from. Dude, its on us to call people out for their wrong doings. If I'm a man who doesn't treat women like shit, then how can I do nothing when I see another man treating a woman like shit? Period. What are we misunderstanding here?
Its not just on the women to defend themselves. Its also on us men to help them when they're being treated like shit by other men. It's called being an ally.
If you knew of a woman who was being beaten by some jerk wouldn't you call the cops? Well, if you knew your boss was keeping women from getting promotions unless he got hand jobs in his office, and an investigator came and asked you about it, wouldn't you be like "yeah, he's a scumbag."? Unless you do something you're part of the problem not the solution.
Dude, its on us to call people out for their wrong doings. -- That can be a judgment call and it's a matter of degrees. But I'm not morally responsible for anybody, except myself. And that's the way it is. "If I'm a man who doesn't treat women like shit, then how can I do nothing when I see another man treating a woman like shit? Period. What are we misunderstanding here?" -- I get where you're coming from . There's no misunderstanding. I think it's the way you are explaining yourself. Go back and read your posts. You come across as very condescending. (I can provide quotes if you want.) Telling some stranger " Dude, it's on us to call people out for their wrong doings" is not going to get you very far. The way you approach your points - and maybe you have some valid ones - is only going to ruffle people's feathers, and the results you get are going to be piss poor. If you knew of a woman who was being beaten by some jerk wouldn't you call the cops? -- Yes. No matter if the "jerk" in question were male OR female. I'm sure poster 'amiable' would, too. Why don't you ask him? Well, if you knew your boss was keeping women from getting promotions unless he got hand jobs in his office, and an investigator came and asked you about it, wouldn't you be like "yeah, he's a scumbag." -- Not sure on this one. I might be jealous of the female employee, depending on the cuteness factor of the employer and what boss man is packing. But I'm sure arrangements could be made that all three of us would find satisfactory. Unless you do something you're part of the problem not the solution. -- There's that old familiar condescending tone of yours. Did you know that Deembastile works with children with special needs? And that she loves her work? Did you know that I volunteer for an organization called The Night Ministry, where we reach out to homeless people in the city? Dude, we pick and choose our own battles in life. Oh, and you can get off your high horse, making a joke out of a person being in a mental institution. You're not quite so righteous as you think you are. Go straight to some busy street corner where you can hand out rape whistles to women wearing short skirts and low cut blouses. Do not pass 'go", do not collect a hundred dollars.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Aug 8, 2018 18:54:29 GMT
Dude, its on us to call people out for their wrong doings. -- That can be a judgment call and it's a matter of degrees. But I'm not morally responsible for anybody, except myself. And that's the way it is. "If I'm a man who doesn't treat women like shit, then how can I do nothing when I see another man treating a woman like shit? Period. What are we misunderstanding here?" -- I get where you're coming from . There's no misunderstanding. I think it's the way you are explaining yourself. Go back and read your posts. You come across as very condescending. (I can provide quotes if you want.) Telling some stranger " Dude, it's on us to call people out for their wrong doings" is not going to get you very far. The way you approach your points - and maybe you have some valid ones - is only going to ruffle people's feathers, and the results you get are going to be piss poor. If you knew of a woman who was being beaten by some jerk wouldn't you call the cops? -- Yes. No matter if the "jerk" in question were male OR female. I'm sure poster 'amiable' would, too. Why don't you ask him? Well, if you knew your boss was keeping women from getting promotions unless he got hand jobs in his office, and an investigator came and asked you about it, wouldn't you be like "yeah, he's a scumbag." -- Not sure on this one. I might be jealous of the female employee, depending on the cuteness factor of the employer and what boss man is packing. But I'm sure arrangements could be made that all three of us would find satisfactory. Unless you do something you're part of the problem not the solution. -- There's that old familiar condescending tone of yours. Did you know that Deembastile works with children with special needs? And that she loves her work? Did you know that I volunteer for an organization called The Night Ministry, where we reach out to homeless people in the city? Dude, we pick and choose our own battles in life. Oh, and you can get off your high horse, making a joke out of a person being in a mental institution. You're not quite so righteous as you think you are. Go straight to some busy street corner where you can hand out rape whistles to women wearing short skirts and low cut blouses. Do not pass 'go", do not collect a hundred dollars. Clearly we just see things differently. But I hear you when you say that I'm condescending. That's not my intention, and if you feel I've condescended to you apologize.
However, if for example, you work at an organization where it was fairly common knowledge that women were molested and you did nothing but continued cashing your check because you're "not morally responsible for anyone but yourself" then I wouldn't say it was unfair when someone accused you of being part of the culture in said organization that did nothing to stop the behavior.
That's one of the issues that came up when all these women started coming out about their bosses molesting them. Where were the good men who did nothing? They knew and didn't come out. I wonder about all the men who knew about Harvey Weinsteins behavior and didn't say anything. A good number of those men were probably assholes who didn't care, but a good number of those men must have also been good guys who did care. So why didn't they say anything?
Our wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers, daughters need us to step up too. To A) not be jerks, and to B) call out jerks when we see them being jerks. Its not a problem that's going to change without our help.
lets make it a little more personal:
When I was a teenager I had a friend, a physically big guy, who liked putting his hands on his girlfriends, if you know what I mean. He tried to hide it, because even his scummy ass had some kind of shame about it, but it was becoming more and more obvious as time went on. I never said or did anything.
I'll always feel terrible about that. That among other reason is why I haven't been friends with him for a great many years. But now that that sort of behavior is at the forefront of topics in our lives I look back and think shouldn't I have done or said something? Was it enough for me to say "I'm not morally responsible for him. That's their business."? You know what I actually used to think back then? I used to think "she's stupid for being with him" as if it were her fault!
More recently I have a friend now whos got married not too long ago. His new bride had a bruise on her arm that I couldn't see how she would have gotten by accidental means. So I asked. Her silence spoke volumes. So I asked him. His diversionary responses also spoke volumes.
Now as a man I can understand the anger the drove him. I don't condone it of course. But I know the woman well enough to say that she is not a pleasant person. All of us in our social circle have no idea why he married her. BUT... I called him out on his shit and I said to him "Dude, we'll come get you." And I was serious, and he's my friend! AND he could probably kick my ass cuz he kinda big too (but I digress).
Let me make it even more personal: YOUR daughter comes to you with a story about how her best friend is being abused. Do you tell her "you're not morally responsible for that."?
You say we each pick our battles. Absolutely right, this one's mine. I proudly consider myself a social justice warrior and card carrying member of the snowflake league, because I hate bullies... of all kinds. Sometimes they're not just in the schoolyards. Sometimes they're our bosses, or our friends, or our president. If you think I'm being morally full of shit, then fine. I can live with being accused of that.
p.s. Deembastile and yourself do good work IRL. I suspected as much because I can read between the lines. And I appreciate that. Good on you.
p.s.s. That joke I made about the mental institution... you're right. Bad call on my part. I'll apologize. But there is a difference between a joke and actions taken.
Peace
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Aug 8, 2018 18:57:12 GMT
I'm sorry but when did I say that? I didn't say I wouldn't do anything about it or speak up against it. I'm just saying it is more of a rare case when it's the other way around and the thing is just like how when girls don't speak up, guys don't speak up because they're embarrassed by it. also if you're a guy and bring it up usually you just get a laughing reaction or people saying yeah but you probably liked it. also if you're a guy and you say to a girl yeah I know how you feel they'll be like no no you don't know how I feel it's not the same for guys. even though it kind of is the same if you're a guy and you're shy not very sexual and most of the girls are bigger than you. There is a double standard. for example when I was 22 and in the psych ward of the hospital. One of the nurses who was in her 40s said to me "if you go near the kettle again I'll put you over my knee and spank you." now imagine if that was the other way around and it was a guy saying that to a young girl? And there were other people around so it's not like it was private, people just laughed. Um.... okay....
"...put you over my knee and spank you." There's definitely a butt thing going in your life! HA HA HAH! I'm sorry! I'm trying to hold it back...
Amiable, I made this joke, and even when I made I was thinking "is this too much?" And now I've been called out on it by someone else.
So here I am sincerely apologizing. Honestly, I'm sorry.
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Post by lordquesterjones on Aug 8, 2018 19:09:25 GMT
In what ways are you personally oppressed and in what ways are you personally privileged? Help, help, I'm being oppressed.
Come see the violence inherent in the system.
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Harmless elf
Junior Member
I'm a slick shyster the pest Meister
@amiable
Posts: 2,924
Likes: 1,170
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Post by Harmless elf on Aug 8, 2018 19:10:16 GMT
Um.... okay....
"...put you over my knee and spank you." There's definitely a butt thing going in your life! HA HA HAH! I'm sorry! I'm trying to hold it back...
Amiable, I made this joke, and even when I made I was thinking "is this too much?" And now I've been called out on it by someone else.
So here I am sincerely apologizing. Honestly, I'm sorry.
I wasn't offended by it. I have thick skin like an elephant.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Aug 8, 2018 19:38:31 GMT
Amiable, I made this joke, and even when I made I was thinking "is this too much?" And now I've been called out on it by someone else.
So here I am sincerely apologizing. Honestly, I'm sorry.
I wasn't offended by it. I have thick skin like an elephant. Yeah, I didn't think you were. But since it bugged someone else, and me, I thought I'd throw it out there.
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Post by deembastille on Aug 8, 2018 23:25:48 GMT
Dude, its on us to call people out for their wrong doings. If I'm a man who doesn't treat women like shit, then how can I do nothing when I see another man treating a woman like shit? Period. What are we misunderstanding here?
Its not just on the women to defend themselves. Its also on us men to help them when they're being treated like shit by other men. It's called being an ally.
If you knew of a woman who was being beaten by some jerk wouldn't you call the cops? Well, if you knew your boss was keeping women from getting promotions unless he got hand jobs in his office, and an investigator came and asked you about it, wouldn't you be like "yeah, he's a scumbag."? Unless you do something you're part of the problem not the solution.
Dude, its on us to call people out for their wrong doings. -- That can be a judgment call and it's a matter of degrees. But I'm not morally responsible for anybody, except myself. And that's the way it is. "If I'm a man who doesn't treat women like shit, then how can I do nothing when I see another man treating a woman like shit? Period. What are we misunderstanding here?" -- I get where you're coming from . There's no misunderstanding. I think it's the way you are explaining yourself. Go back and read your posts. You come across as very condescending. (I can provide quotes if you want.) Telling some stranger " Dude, it's on us to call people out for their wrong doings" is not going to get you very far. The way you approach your points - and maybe you have some valid ones - is only going to ruffle people's feathers, and the results you get are going to be piss poor. If you knew of a woman who was being beaten by some jerk wouldn't you call the cops? -- Yes. No matter if the "jerk" in question were male OR female. I'm sure poster 'amiable' would, too. Why don't you ask him? Well, if you knew your boss was keeping women from getting promotions unless he got hand jobs in his office, and an investigator came and asked you about it, wouldn't you be like "yeah, he's a scumbag." -- Not sure on this one. I might be jealous of the female employee, depending on the cuteness factor of the employer and what boss man is packing. But I'm sure arrangements could be made that all three of us would find satisfactory. Unless you do something you're part of the problem not the solution. -- There's that old familiar condescending tone of yours. D id you know that Deembastile works with children with special needs? And that she loves her work? Did you know that I volunteer for an organization called The Night Ministry, where we reach out to homeless people in the city? Dude, we pick and choose our own battles in life. Oh, and you can get off your high horse, making a joke out of a person being in a mental institution. You're not quite so righteous as you think you are.
Go straight to some busy street corner where you can hand out rape whistles to women wearing short skirts and low cut blouses. Do not pass 'go", do not collect a hundred dollars.
thank you dirty pillows. I didn't even see that when I wanted to respond on your last bit: I said the same thing and lenlen ripped me a new one. Basically, he is being the problem and is does not want to be part of the solution. the basic point I was trying to make is that I am oppressed because I am a fraction of a percentage in that area and 9 times out of ten am pegged as racist before I even open my mouth. they see a white woman and think she is racist, lazy and is there 'for herself and not for the kids'. meanwhile SIXTEEN YEARS LATER I AM STILL THERE! that is dedication because I love the kids and realize they need as much stability as they can get.
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