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Post by Cody™ on Aug 15, 2018 22:17:46 GMT
From my interactions I’ve found many atheists with this line of reasoning. It’s not just that they disbelieve because of unconvincing evidence. They actually don’t want there to be a God. The very idea of it horrifies them. They completely close their minds to the possibility. This is a great shame.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 22:24:13 GMT
From my interactions I’ve found many atheists with this line of reasoning. It’s not just that they disbelieve because of unconvincing evidence. They actually don’t want there to be a God. The very idea of it horrifies them. Well, that can be a reasonable reaction. Most of them likely have the christian god in mind, after all, and he's the most horrific evil character in all of fiction. I certainly wouldn't want to live in a universe where such a being existed. Fortunately for them, the evidence really is unconvincing so their desire lines up with the reality. |
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 15, 2018 22:33:36 GMT
@graham
No. He isn’t.
The reality is you do though.
Only if you willingly choose to deny what makes sense and decide to accept the absurd. ie. something coming from nothing and creating everything. The universe forming by chance and creating itself LOL
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Post by 🌵 on Aug 15, 2018 22:48:35 GMT
I suspect there's no evidence that could convince me that God exists. This isn't because I don't want there to be a God or that I'm horrified by the idea of God. I don't really care about God one way or the other. Some aspects of traditional religious stories are actually very appealing to me: for example, it would be fantastic if Heaven were real. But a supreme being who created it all - meh, whatever.
The problem for me is this: there's simply no conceivable evidence that could distinguish an all-powerful being from a merely very powerful being. As Arthur C. Clarke once said, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"; similarly, any sufficiently powerful being is indistinguishable from an omnipotent being. If, as suggested in that video, the stars rearranged themselves to declare the existence of God, we could only conclude that a very powerful being exists. You don't need omnipotence to rearrange the stars. The same problem arises for other attributes like omniscience. There's no conceivable evidence that could distinguish an all-knowing being from a merely very knowledgeable being. So there could be no evidence for God, as "God" is defined in most Western religious traditions.
(And this is assuming that the concepts of omnipotence and omniscience are even logically coherent, which is something that I find very questionable.)
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Post by thefleetsin on Aug 15, 2018 22:59:11 GMT
did someone suddenly discover proof for the existence of a god(s)?
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 15, 2018 23:24:44 GMT
From my interactions I’ve found many atheists with this line of reasoning. It’s not just that they disbelieve because of unconvincing evidence. They actually don’t want there to be a God. The very idea of it horrifies them. They completely close their minds to the possibility. This is a great shame. I didn’t watch the video, but assuming your appraisal of whoever this guy is is correct, I think you’ll find that a great many atheists do not fit that description. In fact, you’d probably find that many are the opposite. When I was a Christian, it was because I wanted to believe. I only came to disbelieve upon realizing that my “wants” were irrelevant, and not consistent with the evidence (or rather lack thereof). A belief in God (at least the Christian God) not only contradicts evidence, but it also contradicts reason. It comes from brainwashing children. That’s how the vast majority of theists (I suspect including you) became theists in the first place. Someone put the idea of “God” existing in your mind when you were at an impressionable age, possibly as a way of explaining things they couldn’t explain. Or perhaps it was to make you feel better about the horrible things that happen in the world. And now you carry on that belief because you need to believe in something to give your life meaning. But I’ve learned that faith is only a form of self delusion. It’s a way to cope with life, and give your life some meaning. But it’s also fruitless. Faith doesn’t actually help anyone except in their own mind. It’s like a placebo; it makes you feel better when you believe that someone is out there looking for you. But prayer doesn’t save anyone’s life, it doesn’t give anyone more happiness, or money, or opportunities. There is no supernatural force that affects reality; there is nothing out there that we can see, hear, feel, or test. So there is no logic in believing in such a thing. It’s not about being closed to the idea of it, it’s about measuring the idea of it against what we know to be true. Concepts that contradict not only observable reality, but also themselves cannot be sound concepts to begin with. Life is what we make it, and your life is no more “sacred” than the life of anyone else. Morality is subjective, and religion is man-made. Man created God (and other religious concepts like heaven) to make themselves feel better about the horrors of reality. It’s a form of escape; pretending that there is something better than what we have, or that you’ll be better off in some next life than in the one you actually live in! But it’s not real. It’s just stories; and the younger you are when you discover and accept reality, the better off you’ll be. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 23:52:33 GMT
Well, possibly. I haven't read all of fiction, so I guess there could be a more evil one somewhere. Perhaps. But I keep trying to find a reason to think so, and nobody can ever give me one. Prime examples of poor arguments. |
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Post by progressiveelement on Aug 16, 2018 0:03:33 GMT
I would be convinced if Raiders of the Lost Ark was a true story.
😎
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 16, 2018 0:04:45 GMT
I'd say the same thing--I can't imagine any possible evidence that would convince me that a God is real. It's not that I don't want to believe it, it's that the notion of God requires things that I believe are incoherent, and I can't imagine how I'd not interpret the supposed evidence in a more or less logical positivist manner that wouldn't lend itself to assigning "true" to "A God exists."
A similar problem arises with the idea of nonphysical or real abstract existents in general. I can't imagine anything that I'd count as evidence of them. I think the very idea of them is incoherent. Anything presented to me would be coherent, it would have some physical reality, it would obtain in a particular location, etc., thus it couldn't be evidence of what it's purporting to be evidence of.
However, as Matt Dillahunty says, if there were really an omnipotent, omniscient God, he'd know and be capable of presenting something that I would count as evidence of his existence if he wanted to.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 16, 2018 0:17:09 GMT
@graham No. He isn’t. The reality is you do though. Only if you willingly choose to deny what makes sense and decide to accept the absurd. ie. something coming from nothing and creating everything. The universe forming by chance and creating itself LOL You're disagreeing with graham's subjective opinions there, which is just a silly thing to do. How in the world would you know that those aren't actually his opinions? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 0:21:30 GMT
@graham No. He isn’t. The reality is you do though. Only if you willingly choose to deny what makes sense and decide to accept the absurd. ie. something coming from nothing and creating everything. The universe forming by chance and creating itself LOL You're disagreeing with graham's subjective opinions there, which is just a silly thing to do. How in the world would you know that those aren't actually his opinions? You understand that you're talking to Cody here, right? His disagreement on a topic has very little to do with whether it makes sense to disagree or not. |
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Post by permutojoe on Aug 16, 2018 0:55:40 GMT
I suspect there's no evidence that could convince me that God exists. This isn't because I don't want there to be a God or that I'm horrified by the idea of God. I don't really care about God one way or the other. Some aspects of traditional religious stories are actually very appealing to me: for example, it would be fantastic if Heaven were real. But a supreme being who created it all - meh, whatever. The problem for me is this: there's simply no conceivable evidence that could distinguish an all-powerful being from a merely very powerful being. As Arthur C. Clarke once said, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"; similarly, any sufficiently powerful being is indistinguishable from an omnipotent being. If, as suggested in that video, the stars rearranged themselves to declare the existence of God, we could only conclude that a very powerful being exists. You don't need omnipotence to rearrange the stars. The same problem arises for other attributes like omniscience. There's no conceivable evidence that could distinguish an all-knowing being from a merely very knowledgeable being. So there could be no evidence for God, as "God" is defined in most Western religious traditions. (And this is assuming that the concepts of omnipotence and omniscience are even logically coherent, which is something that I find very questionable.) The notion that our brains, which are flawed and finite and designed to ignore most of reality and perceive only information related to fitness, would be able to take in and comprehend evidence of a perfect all-powerful being is laughable. It's one of the silliest ideas ever put forth I would think. |
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Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 16, 2018 1:04:58 GMT
I don't know what "god" is, so I am not sure whether evidence could exist that would convince me that "god," whatever that means, exists or existed.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Aug 16, 2018 2:13:49 GMT
From my interactions I’ve found many atheists with this line of reasoning. It’s not just that they disbelieve because of unconvincing evidence. They actually don’t want there to be a God. The very idea of it horrifies them. They completely close their minds to the possibility. This is a great shame. "From my interactions I’ve found many atheists with this line of reasoning."
No, no you haven't
"It’s not just that they disbelieve because of actual evidence"
Fixed
"They actually don’t want there to be a God."
Some don't, some do. I'm sure some like the idea of some sort of afterlife, even if there is no real evidence for it.
"The very idea of it horrifies them."
It can be potentially horrific (such as if the god of Islam turned out to be true)
"They completely close their minds to the possibility."
Show me the evidence. It's not like you're really much different anyways. Are you open to the idea of the god of Islam being the one true god? Oh gee, what's that you aren't? Gee why are you so "close minded"?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 4:17:27 GMT
From my interactions I’ve found many atheists with this line of reasoning. It’s not just that they disbelieve because of unconvincing evidence. They actually don’t want there to be a God. I find your opinion a bit misguided... I'd wager you don't know many atheists in your personal life and the overwhelming bulk of your interaction with them is on this very board. A discussion in a 'belief in god' first requires a definition of which or what god, which of course then begs the question... would you approve of your daughter dating a black man? |
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Post by phludowin on Aug 16, 2018 5:50:27 GMT
From my interactions I’ve found many atheists with this line of reasoning. It’s not just that they disbelieve because of unconvincing evidence. They actually don’t want there to be a God. The very idea of it horrifies them. They completely close their minds to the possibility. This is a great shame. Did you even watch the video? |
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 16, 2018 6:32:21 GMT
From my interactions I’ve found many atheists with this line of reasoning. It’s not just that they disbelieve because of unconvincing evidence. They actually don’t want there to be a God. I find your opinion a bit misguided... I'd wager you don't know many atheists in your personal life and the overwhelming bulk of your interaction with them is on this very board. A discussion in a 'belief in god' first requires a definition of which or what god, which of course then begs the question... would you approve of your daughter dating a black man? I think by "dating" eddyhops means screwing. |
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 16, 2018 7:26:03 GMT
@graham
Well substantiate your claim. Give some examples of what makes him according to you the most horrific evil character.
Or they can and the problem is you’re simply in denial and keep looking for excuses to reject the idea of an almighty being.
Something cannot come from nothing and create everything
Disprove that assertion.
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Post by mslo79 on Aug 16, 2018 7:57:08 GMT
given the general topic, that guy seems to be a great example of this... "To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas there is stuff that happens in the world that makes God's existence plausible for people who can see and are not dead set against God's existence... Fatima 1917, St. Pio (1887-1968), Our Lady of Guadalupe image from the year 1531, Eucharistic miracles etc. but he would likely deny these to and everything else.
also, he said, "I suppose even if I died, and was confronted with Peter saying 'welcome to heaven', I would probably think I was dreaming' . but trust me, it would be made crystal clear of the reality of his situation to where there would be zero chance he would think it's a dream at that point as you will see things as they truly are unlike currently where we don't always see things as they truly are.
Yeah, but it's probably because they are living corrupt lives and don't want to change at all so they just keep telling themselves there is no God hoping they are right because if they are wrong, which they are, they got a big negative surprise (i.e. hell) waiting for them when they check out. like for someone in hell they would rather not exist than to be in hell, but that never ends and the suffering there greatly exceeds anything one can possibly experience here on earth. the suffering there is beyond human comprehension. that's why it's best for them to get their stuff together now while there is still time. trust me, the joy in heaven greatly exceeds anything here on earth. I just don't see how someone would trade that for the temporary pleasures of earth. but those who don't believe will be just that much easier for them to fall victim to the devil because he can use someones nature desires against them since not everything that's appealing to us is actually good. @graham Sadly, for whatever reason, many have a twisted view of Jesus Christ like that. what you said basically applies to satan, not God (i.e. The Holy Trinity(Father/Son(Jesus Christ)/Holy Spirit)). Jesus Christ and satan are polar opposites of each other, except God is far stronger than satan. but satan is far stronger than us on our own, but when we tap in His(Jesus Christ) power through prayer etc (which gives us grace from God) we can overcome the world and it's temptations etc which leads to eternal life with Him in the next life. following many of the worlds evil ways leads to death of the soul (i.e. eternity in hell when one passes from this life into the next). basically... if one rejects Jesus Christ, who is goodness itself, satan is the alternative and he hates you with a burning passion. that's the truth. but since they reject Jesus Christ, they also reject the truth that humanity has a fallen nature after the fall of Adam/Eve and now we don't see things properly in that stuff that looks appealing to us is not always good. that's where the truth of the Catholic church comes into play to help guide on on right and wrong etc. I think this is especially true when it comes to matters of the sexual desire as that's one of the most abused things that can get people in trouble with God. so it comes down to a question of what one is going to follow.... their own desires, which can be contrary to God, and the worlds ways etc or reject ones desires and the worlds ways (when it's morally right to do so) which leads to eternal life with God in Heaven. basically the point of existence here on earth is basically a test to see who will follow His ways of living and those who reject Him. earth is just physical reality, the other side (i.e. when we pass from this life into the next after physical death) is the spiritual plane which is eternal. you don't want to be on the wrong side of that one. but from what I have read those who end up in hell pretty much did it to themselves by rejecting God. so once someone ends up in hell, they basically hate EVERYTHING and suffer greatly. there is no good in them whatsoever at that point unlike here on earth where some mostly evil people can still have a little enjoyment here and there etc, but once one ends up in hell one removes themselves from the one thing that can make them happy which is God as He's the sustainer of life and what's good. |
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 16, 2018 8:01:55 GMT
From my interactions I’ve found many atheists with this line of reasoning. It’s not just that they disbelieve because of unconvincing evidence. They actually don’t want there to be a God. The very idea of it horrifies them. They completely close their minds to the possibility. This is a great shame. I didn’t watch the video, but assuming your appraisal of whoever this guy is is correct, I think you’ll find that a great many atheists do not fit that description. In fact, you’d probably find that many are the opposite. When I was a Christian, it was because I wanted to believe. I only came to disbelieve upon realizing that my “wants” were irrelevant, and not consistent with the evidence (or rather lack thereof). A belief in God (at least the Christian God) not only contradicts evidence, but it also contradicts reason. It comes from brainwashing children. That’s how the vast majority of theists (I suspect including you) became theists in the first place. Someone put the idea of “God” existing in your mind when you were at an impressionable age, possibly as a way of explaining things they couldn’t explain. Or perhaps it was to make you feel better about the horrible things that happen in the world. And now you carry on that belief because you need to believe in something to give your life meaning. But I’ve learned that faith is only a form of self delusion. It’s a way to cope with life, and give your life some meaning. But it’s also fruitless. Faith doesn’t actually help anyone except in their own mind. It’s like a placebo; it makes you feel better when you believe that someone is out there looking for you. But prayer doesn’t save anyone’s life, it doesn’t give anyone more happiness, or money, or opportunities. There is no supernatural force that affects reality; there is nothing out there that we can see, hear, feel, or test. So there is no logic in believing in such a thing. It’s not about being closed to the idea of it, it’s about measuring the idea of it against what we know to be true. Concepts that contradict not only observable reality, but also themselves cannot be sound concepts to begin with. Life is what we make it, and your life is no more “sacred” than the life of anyone else. Morality is subjective, and religion is man-made. Man created God (and other religious concepts like heaven) to make themselves feel better about the horrors of reality. It’s a form of escape; pretending that there is something better than what we have, or that you’ll be better off in some next life than in the one you actually live in! But it’s not real. It’s just stories; and the younger you are when you discover and accept reality, the better off you’ll be. Assumptions and unsubstantiated assertions a plenty in this post. |
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