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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 22, 2018 13:46:43 GMT
How did the pair of lions on Noah’s Ark survive for a year on a boat? What did they eat for food? They would have food like all the other animals and people would have food. Considering that some of the animals were herds, maybe they ate some of those. It would have had plenty of room for everything that was on the ark, so I can only assume there is actually an underlying question/statement beyond what lions eat, since the answer to that was way too simple....Or maybe you just thought "theists" actually were scared of the question. Or maybe God made it so that the animals didn't eat. Or perhaps the lions were cubs and so only needed milk. Or perhaps the lions fell asleep for forty days and nights. Or any of the other special pleading which literalists trot out when obvious logistical questions are raised. More to the point, at least for those who take such myths seriously, is how with such a limited gene pool lions and all the other single-paired animals or 'kinds' could have survived through succeeding generations at all. Or how, after weeks underwater, flora (and insects) survived to nourish the disembarked animals. Or how the kangaroos hopped to and forth from Australia. Or what the feck is 'gopher wood'?
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 22, 2018 13:53:49 GMT
Maybe they were hipster vegan lions?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 22, 2018 15:07:01 GMT
They would have food like all the other animals and people would have food. Considering that some of the animals were herds, maybe they ate some of those. It would have had plenty of room for everything that was on the ark, so I can only assume there is actually an underlying question/statement beyond what lions eat, since the answer to that was way too simple....Or maybe you just thought "theists" actually were scared of the question. Or maybe God made it so that the animals didn't eat. Or perhaps the lions were cubs and so only needed milk. Or perhaps the lions fell asleep for forty days and nights. Or any of the other special pleading which literalists trot out when obvious logistical questions are raised. More to the point, at least for those who take such myths seriously, is how with such a limited gene pool lions and all the other single-paired animals or 'kinds' could have survived through succeeding generations at all. Or how, after weeks underwater, flora (and insects) survived to nourish the disembarked animals. Or how the kangaroos hopped to and forth from Australia. Or what the feck is 'gopher wood'? well this isn’t really a logistical issue. There would be a certain amount of room on the ark. We actually have the exact dimensions. There would be enough room for whatever animals were on there, 8 people, and supplies to last no longer than the time it would take to spoil assuming God would not miraculously provide for them which I assume is not an allowable option for the scenario despite it being an extremely common miracle. The simplest answer is we don’t know since it’s not given but the next simplest answer is there was enough food on the ark to take care of everything that was on the ark just like any normal cruise ship floating around on the water for a certain amount of time
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 22, 2018 15:22:16 GMT
The Lost One As opposed to being indoctrinated and conditioned in a college/university into becoming a mindless liberal snowflake and to just blindly accept the pseudoscience that humans evolved from fish?
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 22, 2018 15:33:04 GMT
How did the pair of lions on Noah’s Ark survive for a year on a boat? What did they eat for food? They would have food like all the other animals and people would have food. You realize that’s kind of a non-answer right. I mean, I would just as easily counter that with “no, they wouldn’t” as there is clearly not enough room on a 700 foot long wooden boat to maintain food stock for every “kind” of animal (and the humans) for a period of over a year. Especially given their vastly different nutritional requirements. No, it wouldn’t! In fact, there’s not even enough room for all the animals in the first place. You start adding the thousands of pounds of grain and meat required to support them for that timeframe, well you see where this is going... Well seeing as how you haven’t really answered it yet (saying “they ate food” is a non answer), Id say that your assumption is unnecessary.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 22, 2018 15:53:02 GMT
The Lost One As opposed to being indoctrinated and conditioned in a college/university into becoming a mindless liberal snowflake and to just blindly accept the pseudoscience that humans evolved from fish? Well dunno about that, I went to two fairly conservative Catholic schools for 14 years and they taught us about natural selection.
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 22, 2018 15:58:52 GMT
The Lost One As opposed to being indoctrinated and conditioned in a college/university into becoming a mindless liberal snowflake and to just blindly accept the pseudoscience that humans evolved from fish? That’s not really a pseudoscience so much as it is SCIENCE!
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Post by lowtacks86 on Aug 22, 2018 17:09:28 GMT
"That’s basically another way of asking which members (regular posters here) are theists?"
Not really, unless you label theistic evolution as "creationism" (the term typically implies an outright rejection of evolution). This labeling can even more trickier with "deisitic evolution" (God created the universe, perhaps even kickstarted abiogenesis, but evolution pretty much happened on its own)
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Post by lowtacks86 on Aug 22, 2018 17:11:40 GMT
The Lost One As opposed to being indoctrinated and conditioned in a college/university into becoming a mindless liberal snowflake and to just blindly accept the pseudoscience that humans evolved from fish? Even though you're grossly oversimplifying evolution, I'm not seeing how that's anymore riddiculous than humans essentially being made from dirt and a woman being made from a rib.
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 22, 2018 19:13:29 GMT
The Lost One As opposed to being indoctrinated and conditioned in a college/university into becoming a mindless liberal snowflake and to just blindly accept the pseudoscience that humans evolved from fish? Well dunno about that, I went to two fairly conservative Catholic schools for 14 years and they taught us about natural selection. Sorry natural selection does not prove that humans evolved from fish.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Aug 22, 2018 19:15:20 GMT
Well dunno about that, I went to two fairly conservative Catholic schools for 14 years and they taught us about natural selection. Sorry natural selection does not prove that humans evolved from fish. Not natural selection in itself, but DNA evidence combined with the fossil record pretty much does.
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 22, 2018 19:18:14 GMT
Sorry natural selection does not prove that humans evolved from fish. Not natural selection in itself, but DNA evidence combined with the fossil record pretty much does. LOL
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Post by lowtacks86 on Aug 22, 2018 19:20:38 GMT
Not natural selection in itself, but DNA evidence combined with the fossil record pretty much does. LOL So no real counterargument
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 23, 2018 8:12:08 GMT
this isn’t really a logistical issue. Logistics is, generally speaking, the detailed organization and implementation of a complex operation. Yes, the supposed size of Noah’s Ark can be read beginning in Genesis 6:14 as 450 feet long (equal to 135 m or 300 cubits). The Ark was 75 feet wide (22.5 m or 50 cubits). The vessel was 45 feet tall. That is apparently the same as 13.5 meters or 30 cubits and the storage capacity same as about 450 standard semi-trailers. However literalists would do well to remember that such alleged proportions would also have to contain food stuffs for all the animals, a degree of space in each enclosure for air and movement, and partitions to keep incompatible species apart or safe. Fortunately not being a literalist, I don't have to worry about believability. But this topic always arouses more special pleading than any other when it comes round. I am sure you know already, but a 'common miracle' is an oxymoron. But have it as you will; it is your faith, not mine. Spoken like a true literalist. How much food would you expect is required to feed a pair of each creature (or even the more accommodating notion of a representative 'kind') on earth, for 40 days and nights, while remaining edible? Or would this be another miracle common to the times?
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Post by rizdek on Aug 23, 2018 8:29:38 GMT
There is a test I have devised for fake evolutionists and crypto creationists : Ask them if they believe Adam was the first human being. if the answer is yes then you have a creationist. Are you sure about this? If I believe man evolved from "pre homo sapien" forms, doesn't that mean there had to be a first homo sapien? If so, what's wrong with assigning him a name (Adam)? Why should that make me a creationist?
Actually, I think not. The way species, a human-devised delineation, are assigned, there isn't ever going to be just one of a kind. Gene pools evolve and become new species, usually quite gradually. Entire populations slowly transition in phenotype and genotype until taxanomists finally decide that the gene pool, usually represented by a few specimens, has finally changed enough that all the individuals in that gene pool are now a different species. So, technically, there wouldn't be a "first" human. At best there would be a first human gene pool but it would likely be represented by hundreds of thousands of interbreeding individuals. Now, this is NOT to say that they won't, often times, find a set of fossilized bones of one individual and based on an examination, decide it represents a different species than other similar specimens, but that doesn't mean that there was just "one" individual representing that gene pool. Maybe someone could decide that a given fossil could be named "Adam" but that doesn't mean there was just one of that species at that time. At least that's how I understand it happens.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 23, 2018 9:27:25 GMT
There is no conflict between religion and science at the higher levels of academia. The so called creationism vs. evolution "debate" only occurs at a very elementary level of reading and understanding and is fueled by politics, not religion, and not science.
People who insist on a "literal" interpretation of the Bible typically have not read very much of it. It is rife with symbolism and says so. It does not at any time require "literal" interpretation. In fact interpretation requires spiritual guidance. The story of Jacob tending Laban's flocks has a more or less "scientific" observation of a change in the genetic makeup of those flocks. People had in fact been breeding plants and animals for centuries before Darwin. So Darwin didn't present anything new or challenging to them.
Some people who host religious radio talk shows recoil at the suggestion that the Bible should not be taken literally. Elementary school students are typically not ready for such intellectual gymnastics as the higher symbolic language requires. Remember that mass media is made at a level suitable for children and adults tending children.
In Civil War times with the primitive technology available then some moderately intelligent people could believe in extending evolution from just the origin of species to the origin of life itself. However as the science and technology advanced it became increasingly difficult to do that. The more intelligent people left the crowd of believers that evolution would ever explain the origin of life. All of you should have learned in school and remember that evolution does not explain the origin of life. Today the only people who think it is very reasonable to believe that life could have assembled itself with only those agencies found in nature are dropouts.
It is the government and its grunts who keep insisting science has disproved anything in the Bible. You perhaps noticed a tendency on this board for some to believe that the world's problems are the fault of religion and doing away with religion will solve most problems. That is not true and not something taken seriously. Science is incapable of solving issues in society because they do not arise because anyone needs to know how to do anything. Issues in society arise because people cannot agree what to do or why. Science is useless with such issues.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 23, 2018 10:01:24 GMT
There is no conflict between religion and science at the higher levels of academia. If true this is probably because, as studies have shown, traditional religious belief falls away the higher the educational attainment of an individual - in favour of atheism, or at least often an idea of 'god' which is more sophisticated than old-time religion offers. However figures like Professor Richard Dawkins FRS FRSL, a high-level academic, would seem to disprove the odd notion that there is ever 'no' conflict. On the contrary; a few minute's browsing shows how any debate (such as they attempt) is most often found within fundamentalist circles and proselytizing websites. From my reading I have seen it is not common on regular political websites at all. And yes, I will accept matters are different Stateside (where arguably there is too much religion in the political sphere) but in the UK at least there is no sign of debate over evolution vs creation at all, only some occasional concern over the curricula and teaching standards of faith schools more generally. But you are right in one things: there is relatively little if any debate in science about creationism, er, intelligent design. But that's probably since it has nothing to say about an un-evidenced, supernatural cause to reality, while the fact of the modern evolutionary synthesis has overwhelming consensus, based on years of theorising, research and observation is clear. But you have been told this before. True or not, this is an assertion which may come as a surprise to many in the fundamentalist camp. Especially those, say, who think that their God 'literally' created the world. Or that Jesus was 'literally' a god on earth, come to that. The Jacob and Laban passages in the bible supposedly written by Moses in Genesis 29:1-31:55 are interesting, not least since they offer a novel view of genetics in animal husbandry where stripped wooden sticks, apparently can define the colour of succeeding generations of cattle:
"Jacob got green branches of poplar, almond, and plane trees and stripped off some of the bark so that the branches had white stripes on them. He placed these branches in front of the flocks at their drinking troughs. He put them there, because the animals mated when they came to drink. So when the goats bred in front of the branches, they produced young that were streaked, speckled, and spotted."
It is reasonable to suggest that modern genetics, which forms a part of evolutionary theory, and a science which does not commonly rely on wooden-based breeding, would indeed have come as surprise to Jacob.
There is an obvious difference, Arlon ought to know (since he is always reminded at this point) between evolution, which seeks to define the natural progress of life, and any purely natural cause for all that has existed. Since nature works in mysterious ways, then there is no logical reason that it cannot always exist and contain at an elemental level the same sort of permanence, and eventual propensity to provoke more of what is, just as the faithful commonly attribute to their favourite deity. But we've been here before.
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Post by rizdek on Aug 23, 2018 10:05:12 GMT
Well dunno about that, I went to two fairly conservative Catholic schools for 14 years and they taught us about natural selection. Sorry natural selection does not prove that humans evolved from fish. You find proofs in logic, not science. Theories are never proven...they may be disproven or they may be further supported/corroborated, but scientific theories are never proven. So you are right...but in an unimportant way.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 10:14:50 GMT
Just to add...
Selective breeding for characteristics within a species by humans is not evolution... We have a wide variety of domestic dog breeds, but they are still all dogs. Left to breed of their own accord without human selected breeding for individual characteristics, they would return to type.
And, selective breeding by placing stripy sticks near water... Yeah, that'll work😒
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 23, 2018 10:23:34 GMT
Just to add... Selective breeding for characteristics within a species by humans is not evolution... We have a wide variety of domestic dog breeds, but they are still all dogs. Left to breed of their own accord without human selected breeding for individual characteristics, they would return to type. And, selective breeding by placing stripy sticks near water... Yeah, that'll work😒 You underestimate the human capacity to interfere.
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