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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 27, 2018 13:30:46 GMT
Do you know that your mother loves you? If the answer is yes then can you prove it? Empirical claims aren't provable. That's Science Methodology/Philosophy of Science 101. You should be familiar with such rudimentary ideas before attempting apologetics. |
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 27, 2018 13:31:03 GMT
There is nothing extraordinary about the claim, "My mother loves me". Indeed, without evidence to the contrary, there is no sound reason for anyone to doubt so mundane an assertion. Proof is not required by any rational person. Extraordinary claims are a far different matter, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more compelling the evidence must be.
It’s not about extraordinary claims. It’s a knowing that your mother loves you. A feeling. I’m merely putting that belief to the test. The question is can you prove it? Knowing someone and believing it are two different things. You cannot put what someone else knows to the test by testing a belief. It doesn’t work that way. Also, you haven’t given any standard of proof that would make this exercise worthwhile. You need to first qualify what you’d accept as “proof” before challenging someone to provide it; otherwise you will keep moving the goal post. |
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 27, 2018 13:50:21 GMT
It’s not about extraordinary claims. It’s a knowing that your mother loves you. A feeling. I’m merely putting that belief to the test. The question is can you prove it? Knowing someone and believing it are two different things. You cannot put what someone else knows to the test by testing a belief. It doesn’t work that way. Also, you haven’t given any standard of proof that would make this exercise worthwhile. You need to first qualify what you’d accept as “proof” before challenging someone to provide it; otherwise you will keep moving the goal post. I don’t see why I can’t put them to the test. If they claim to know something I’m entitled to challenge them to prove to me how they know? If their evidence is insufficient then I don’t believe them. Standard? Providing solid evidence for something to establish it as a fact. |
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 27, 2018 13:58:16 GMT
Do you know that your mother loves you? If the answer is yes then can you prove it? Empirical claims aren't provable. That's Science Methodology/Philosophy of Science 101. You should be familiar with such rudimentary ideas before attempting apologetics. In other words there are some things atheists know to be true but cannot empirically prove through simply the observable material world. |
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 27, 2018 14:06:31 GMT
Knowing someone and believing it are two different things. You cannot put what someone else knows to the test by testing a belief. It doesn’t work that way. Also, you haven’t given any standard of proof that would make this exercise worthwhile. You need to first qualify what you’d accept as “proof” before challenging someone to provide it; otherwise you will keep moving the goal post. I don’t see why I can’t put them to the test. If they claim to know something I’m entitled to challenge them to prove to me how they know? If their evidence is insufficient then I don’t believe them. Standard? Providing solid evidence for something to establish it as a fact. I just told you why your test would be invalid. No test is valid if there is no established standard. Requesting evidence doesn’t mean anything until you qualify what you consider evidence. I could present all the evidence in the world and you may still say “no that’s not acceptable evidence” just so that you will always win. That’s called goal post moving. If you want a valid test, then set a goal in terms of what you’d accept as evidence. Otherwise how is anyone to know what would satisfy the test? |
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 27, 2018 14:11:03 GMT
Empirical claims aren't provable. That's Science Methodology/Philosophy of Science 101. You should be familiar with such rudimentary ideas before attempting apologetics. In other words there are some things atheists know to be true but cannot empirically prove through simply the observable material world. That may be your opinion, but you can’t establish that unless you can a) find an atheist who claims to know something without empirical evidence, and b) define what empirical evidence is in terms of validating an emotional state. Until you do both of those things you haven’t really validated your statement. |
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 27, 2018 14:35:57 GMT
I don’t see why I can’t put them to the test. If they claim to know something I’m entitled to challenge them to prove to me how they know? If their evidence is insufficient then I don’t believe them. Standard? Providing solid evidence for something to establish it as a fact. I just told you why your test would be invalid. No test is valid if there is no established standard. Requesting evidence doesn’t mean anything until you qualify what you consider evidence. I could present all the evidence in the world and you may still say “no that’s not acceptable evidence” just so that you will always win. That’s called goal post moving. If you want a valid test, then set a goal in terms of what you’d accept as evidence. Otherwise how is anyone to know what would satisfy the test? I’m open to any evidence you can bring forth. If I find your evidence insufficient to meeting the burden of proof and establishing the fact then you leave me with little choice than to reject your claim. |
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 27, 2018 14:58:06 GMT
I just told you why your test would be invalid. No test is valid if there is no established standard. Requesting evidence doesn’t mean anything until you qualify what you consider evidence. I could present all the evidence in the world and you may still say “no that’s not acceptable evidence” just so that you will always win. That’s called goal post moving. If you want a valid test, then set a goal in terms of what you’d accept as evidence. Otherwise how is anyone to know what would satisfy the test? I’m open to any evidence you can bring forth. If I find your evidence insufficient to meeting the burden of proof and establishing the fact then you leave me with little choice than to reject your claim. This is still going over your head so I’ll try to dumb it down even further. There is no “burden” to satisfy if there is no established standard of evidence. What part about that do you not understand? You say that you are open to “any evidence” but you’ve already invalidated that statement by rejecting evidence out of hand. So that means you’re only open to a specific type of evidence that meets your standard (which you haven’t told anybody yet). So it’s a pointless exercise that will ultimately yield zero outcomes. The test will go unresolved forever until you establish testing parameters (defining what evidence is acceptable). Until you do that then it’s not a real “test”. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 27, 2018 20:12:11 GMT
Empirical claims aren't provable. That's Science Methodology/Philosophy of Science 101. You should be familiar with such rudimentary ideas before attempting apologetics. In other words there are some things atheists know to be true but cannot empirically prove through simply the observable material world. Not just some things. No empirical claim is provable period. The very idea of seeking proof for any empirical claim is a category error. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 1:49:36 GMT
I don't absolutely know, but all of the evidence indicates that she does. She could just be a very convincing actor, I suppose. How would you present this evidence? I don't know if I'd bother, because I'd not feel any need to prove it. If anyone saw reason to disbelieve in it, then that would be their prerogative. |
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Aug 28, 2018 3:01:01 GMT
Do you know that your mother loves you? If the answer is yes then can you prove it? My mother has been dead for over 10 years. She loved me but she didn't like me. She proved her love for me to me. Don't need to prove it to people who don't know me. |
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