Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Sept 18, 2018 22:51:41 GMT
What about the children who are not yet dead but are suffering mightily? Do you know what it feels like to go 3 or 4 days without anything to eat? How about going weeks without enough to eat? And without any medicines when you are sick? I take it then you concede the point, which in the context of eternity is by far more important than anything else. And do you know that these children are suffering due to man-made problems? Africa, Asia's problem is not that it has a lack of resources or that it doesn't have intelligent people. It is not "cursed." It has been raped and continues to be raped by colonialists and now globalists who put greed and profit above lives. Humankind has been given the tools and the resources to help all of these children, 1000 times over. We fail because of the people we have elected to represent us.
If you see a young child about to run into the middle of a busy street after a ball, what is the moral thing to do? Avert your eyes because it is not your child and you have no responsibility to intervene? Or grab the child to keep him from being hit by a car? The child has been left alone, neglected by his parents. His being left in danger is a "man-made problem." Does a moral god leave the child to be hit by a car and critically injured because his parents have been neglectful? |
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Post by Vegas on Sept 18, 2018 23:11:33 GMT
If you see a young child about to run into the middle of a busy street after a ball, what is the moral thing to do? Avert your eyes because it is not your child and you have no responsibility to intervene? Or grab the child to keep him from being hit by a car? The child has been left alone, neglected by his parents. His being left in danger is a "man-made problem." Does a moral god leave the child to be hit by a car and critically injured because his parents have been neglectful?How humans act on behalf of other humans isn't the same thing as God acting on behalf humans.... especially when one fails to see the big picture as why God chooses to act.. or, in this, case not to act. Nature filmographers aren't considered immoral when they allow a predator to eat the young of another species... It all serves a purpose. If God does exist.... and he resurrects that child in a few years.. and he and its family get to live happily ever after... forever.. with a better understanding that they would have been better off under His guidance the whole time.. 50,000,000 years from now... It seems like it would be "No harm, no foul." |
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Post by goz on Sept 18, 2018 23:18:39 GMT
I take it then you concede the point, which in the context of eternity is by far more important than anything else. And do you know that these children are suffering due to man-made problems? Africa, Asia's problem is not that it has a lack of resources or that it doesn't have intelligent people. It is not "cursed." It has been raped and continues to be raped by colonialists and now globalists who put greed and profit above lives. Humankind has been given the tools and the resources to help all of these children, 1000 times over. We fail because of the people we have elected to represent us.
If you see a young child about to run into the middle of a busy street after a ball, what is the moral thing to do? Avert your eyes because it is not your child and you have no responsibility to intervene? Or grab the child to keep him from being hit by a car? The child has been left alone, neglected by his parents. His being left in danger is a "man-made problem." Does a moral god leave the child to be hit by a car and critically injured because his parents have been neglectful? @smithgjs would say yes. |
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Post by goz on Sept 18, 2018 23:22:54 GMT
If you see a young child about to run into the middle of a busy street after a ball, what is the moral thing to do? Avert your eyes because it is not your child and you have no responsibility to intervene? Or grab the child to keep him from being hit by a car? The child has been left alone, neglected by his parents. His being left in danger is a "man-made problem." Does a moral god leave the child to be hit by a car and critically injured because his parents have been neglectful?How humans act on behalf of other humans isn't the same thing as God acting on behalf humans.... especially when one fails to see the big picture as why God chooses to act.. or, in this, case not to act. Nature filmographers aren't considered immoral when they allow a predator to eat the young of another species... It all serves a purpose. If God does exist.... and he resurrects that child in a few years.. and he and its family get to live happily ever after... forever.. with a better understanding that they would have been better off under His guidance the whole time..
50,000,000 years from now... It seems like it would be "No harm, no foul."
...and if God doesn't exist, the whole thing is a nonsense. Humans attributing everything to God is the problem and not taking responsibility for their own actions is the problem. You too should read the article I posted on 'circular arguments' in the other thread. You don't seem to 'get it', either! |
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Post by THawk on Sept 18, 2018 23:28:09 GMT
I take it then you concede the point, which in the context of eternity is by far more important than anything else. And do you know that these children are suffering due to man-made problems? Africa, Asia's problem is not that it has a lack of resources or that it doesn't have intelligent people. It is not "cursed." It has been raped and continues to be raped by colonialists and now globalists who put greed and profit above lives. Humankind has been given the tools and the resources to help all of these children, 1000 times over. We fail because of the people we have elected to represent us.
If you see a young child about to run into the middle of a busy street after a ball, what is the moral thing to do? Avert your eyes because it is not your child and you have no responsibility to intervene? Or grab the child to keep him from being hit by a car? The child has been left alone, neglected by his parents. His being left in danger is a "man-made problem." Does a moral god leave the child to be hit by a car and critically injured because his parents have been neglectful? Sigh. If you actually go back to the first point made, then with Heaven, God intervenes much more effectively than anyone can possibly ever quantify. If you're asking why doesn't he stop this evil/that pain, then it's going back to the whole question of suffering on earth, which is the 101 circular debate since time immemorial. |
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Post by Vegas on Sept 18, 2018 23:38:03 GMT
How humans act on behalf of other humans isn't the same thing as God acting on behalf humans.... especially when one fails to see the big picture as why God chooses to act.. or, in this, case not to act. Nature filmographers aren't considered immoral when they allow a predator to eat the young of another species... It all serves a purpose. If God does exist.... and he resurrects that child in a few years.. and he and its family get to live happily ever after... forever.. with a better understanding that they would have been better off under His guidance the whole time..
50,000,000 years from now... It seems like it would be "No harm, no foul."
Agreed.
I'm not sure you understand what a circular argument is.
 - "God doesn't exist = God evil for not stopping evil."  - But if God exists then He might have a plan that is above your human understanding of 'Good' and 'ev-"BUT GOD DOESN'T EXIST THEREFORE 'NONSENSE'!!" - |
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Post by goz on Sept 18, 2018 23:39:03 GMT
If you see a young child about to run into the middle of a busy street after a ball, what is the moral thing to do? Avert your eyes because it is not your child and you have no responsibility to intervene? Or grab the child to keep him from being hit by a car? The child has been left alone, neglected by his parents. His being left in danger is a "man-made problem." Does a moral god leave the child to be hit by a car and critically injured because his parents have been neglectful? Sigh. If you actually go back to the first point made, then with Heaven, God intervenes much more effectively than anyone can possibly ever quantify If you're asking why doesn't he stop this evil/that pain, then it's going back to the whole question of suffering on earth, which is the 101 circular debate since time immemorial.Exactly. So why does 'he' randomly intervene sometimes and not others? |
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Post by goz on Sept 18, 2018 23:43:27 GMT
...and if God doesn't exist, the whole thing is a nonsense. ! Agreed.
I'm not sure you understand what a circular argument is.
- "God doesn't exist = God evil for not stopping evil." - But if God exists then He might have a plan that is above your human understanding of 'Good' and 'ev-"BUT GOD DOESN'T EXIST THEREFORE 'NONSENSE'!!" - What? THAT is nonsense. |
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Post by Vegas on Sept 18, 2018 23:52:12 GMT
Agreed.
I'm not sure you understand what a circular argument is.
- "God doesn't exist = God evil for not stopping evil." - But if God exists then He might have a plan that is above your human understanding of 'Good' and 'ev-"BUT GOD DOESN'T EXIST THEREFORE 'NONSENSE'!!" - And the circle is complete. |
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Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
Likes: 1,670
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Post by Eλευθερί on Sept 19, 2018 0:54:12 GMT
If you see a young child about to run into the middle of a busy street after a ball, what is the moral thing to do? Avert your eyes because it is not your child and you have no responsibility to intervene? Or grab the child to keep him from being hit by a car? The child has been left alone, neglected by his parents. His being left in danger is a "man-made problem." Does a moral god leave the child to be hit by a car and critically injured because his parents have been neglectful? Sigh. If you actually go back to the first point made, then with Heaven, God intervenes much more effectively than anyone can possibly ever quantify. If you're asking why doesn't he stop this evil/that pain, then it's going back to the whole question of suffering on earth, which is the 101 circular debate since time immemorial. I would appreciate your restating the point, because I did not understand it: How does God's saving some souls for all eternity make up for God's allowing innocent children to suffer needlessly? |
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Post by THawk on Sept 19, 2018 16:22:45 GMT
Sigh. If you actually go back to the first point made, then with Heaven, God intervenes much more effectively than anyone can possibly ever quantify. If you're asking why doesn't he stop this evil/that pain, then it's going back to the whole question of suffering on earth, which is the 101 circular debate since time immemorial. I would appreciate your restating the point, because I did not understand it: How does God's saving some souls for all eternity make up for God's allowing innocent children to suffer needlessly? ---I do not know why you added the word *some* there, I do not believe that's accurate.
You can understand my point clearly, and it is by far the biggest and most important difference between what a world with God, and a world without God have to offer.
You phrase "God's allowing innocent children to suffer needlessly" in an accusational tone, but yes the truth is that everything that happens in this world happens because God has created the potentiality of it happening. From every last atrocity, to every good thing in this world, it is all possible because God created a world in which it is possible. The good news is that if God is real, all the injustice, all the suffering is not the final end. Death is not the victor. Far from it. The story - an infinitely better story, continues on past that doorway for eternity.
Essentially what you are asking is why did God create an existence where any form of pain is possible, why did we not have Heaven from the very beginning. That I cannot answer, and probably no one can answer in this life.* If that is enough for you to judge the world to be godless, then that is your view. But going back to the first point, that leaves all such children in eternal darkness and eternal injustice. The hope, despite all the mysteries, is that God will be there for them in Heaven.
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Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
Likes: 1,670
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Post by Eλευθερί on Sept 19, 2018 18:59:51 GMT
I would appreciate your restating the point, because I did not understand it: How does God's saving some souls for all eternity make up for God's allowing innocent children to suffer needlessly? ---I do not know why you added the word *some* there, I do not believe that's accurate. So you believe the souls of all who live go to Heaven? The parent who brings a pet dog into the house with young children creates the possibility that the dog will bite one of the kids. An immoral parent sits idly by and allows the child to suffer and die after the dog bites. Do we then say that the parent was actually the most moral of all parents because by her inaction in the face of its mortal suffering that she did not lift a finger to alleviate she has allowed for the child to get to Heaven faster? So, in your estimation, the ends justify the means? If in the end all souls get to Heaven, it doesn't matter what horrors occurred to get there? |
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 19, 2018 19:18:21 GMT
---I do not know why you added the word *some* there, I do not believe that's accurate. So you believe the souls of all who live go to Heaven? The parent who brings a pet dog into the house with young children creates the possibility that the dog will bite one of the kids. An immoral parent sits idly by and allows the child to suffer and die after the dog bites. Do we then say that the parent was actually the most moral of all parents because by her inaction in the face of its mortal suffering that she did not lift a finger to alleviate she has allowed for the child to get to Heaven faster? So, in your estimation, the ends justify the means? If in the end all souls get to Heaven, it doesn't matter what horrors occurred to get there? That is exactly what he means. But, if that is true, why is abortion not okay? It's just getting those little souls back to Heaven early, so it should be okay, too. |
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Post by THawk on Sept 19, 2018 19:55:36 GMT
---I do not know why you added the word *some* there, I do not believe that's accurate. I believe that if that is God's will, he is more than capable of seeing that fulfilled, and I would not limit him. You've used a couple of examples comparing God to an earthly parent, but the two are very different. Whatever the earthly parent believes or doesn't believe, all he knows for sure is his child's life here on earth. He should be expected to protect and preserve it to the very limit of his ability. On earth, all that we have and know for sure is this one life. From our perspective death is terrifying and potentially final. God, however, knows and sees everything, he knows all that can and will happen in this life, and he knows exactly what follows after this life. He is the creator of Heaven, of time, of everything. He knows there is more to the story. He has not failed the child, anymore than he has "failed" everything else for creating an existence in which we first must toil through the earthly life before moving on. The "ends" is eternity in Heaven, which is a (good) concept beyond anything the human mind can conceptualize. The means, all the bad, all the good, all we go through on earth is not even drop of water in the biggest ocean. So yes. |
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Post by goz on Sept 19, 2018 22:15:28 GMT
I would appreciate your restating the point, because I did not understand it: How does God's saving some souls for all eternity make up for God's allowing innocent children to suffer needlessly? ---I do not know why you added the word *some* there, I do not believe that's accurate.
You can understand my point clearly, and it is by far the biggest and most important difference between what a world with God, and a world without God have to offer.
You phrase "God's allowing innocent children to suffer needlessly" in an accusational tone, but yes the truth is that everything that happens in this world happens because God has created the potentiality of it happening. From every last atrocity, to every good thing in this world, it is all possible because God created a world in which it is possible. The good news is that if God is real, all the injustice, all the suffering is not the final end. Death is not the victor. Far from it. The story - an infinitely better story, continues on past that doorway for eternity.
Essentially what you are asking is why did God create an existence where any form of pain is possible, why did we not have Heaven from the very beginning. That I cannot answer, and probably no one can answer in this life.* If that is enough for you to judge the world to be godless, then that is your view. But going back to the first point, that leaves all such children in eternal darkness and eternal injustice. The hope, despite all the mysteries, is that God will be there for them in Heaven.
Prove that there is life after death or 'heaven' as you prefer to call it? How do you know this? |
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Post by looking4klingons on Sept 20, 2018 23:21:03 GMT
For most of those in this condition, death will bring their only relief. They will RIP, until the Resurrection comes! -- John 5:28-29
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 21, 2018 0:29:05 GMT
---I do not know why you added the word *some* there, I do not believe that's accurate.
You can understand my point clearly, and it is by far the biggest and most important difference between what a world with God, and a world without God have to offer.
You phrase "God's allowing innocent children to suffer needlessly" in an accusational tone, but yes the truth is that everything that happens in this world happens because God has created the potentiality of it happening. From every last atrocity, to every good thing in this world, it is all possible because God created a world in which it is possible. The good news is that if God is real, all the injustice, all the suffering is not the final end. Death is not the victor. Far from it. The story - an infinitely better story, continues on past that doorway for eternity.
Essentially what you are asking is why did God create an existence where any form of pain is possible, why did we not have Heaven from the very beginning. That I cannot answer, and probably no one can answer in this life.* If that is enough for you to judge the world to be godless, then that is your view. But going back to the first point, that leaves all such children in eternal darkness and eternal injustice. The hope, despite all the mysteries, is that God will be there for them in Heaven.
Prove that there is life after death or 'heaven' as you prefer to call it? How do you know this? Yeah, Goz, that's what I'm asking too, along with why isn't god here for them now? And, yes, it is enough to judge the world to be godless. And why would one worship a god that tortures sentient beings, even if he takes them to heaven later? I think the word for that is masochism, and that would mean god is sadistic. Give me plain old atheistic logic and reason any day. |
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