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Post by clusium on Sept 19, 2018 14:33:39 GMT
That's correct. Jesus Fulfilled the Scriptures which said that the Lord Would Suffer. Eg: Psalm 22; Isaiah 52; and Wisdom 2 (not included in Protestant Scriptures). And yet most First Century people who held to the existing scriptures did not think Jesus was the prophesized Messiah. They did not think he fulfilled prophecy even though His passion, death and resurrection was a matter of current events with eyewitnesses still living. How is this evidence now the iron-clad proof you are assuming it to be 2,000 years later? This remains a matter of faith. Religions other than Christianity have adherents that accept them as correct because of similar faith in different religious figures or concepts. Those were people who believed that the Messiah would be Conquering King, as opposed to a man who would be executed in the most shameful & agonizing way. Yes, people of other religions believe that their founders fulfilled earlier prophecies too. Nobody disputes that. I was asked a question about what makes Christianity real, & that was my answer: Christ's Passion, Death, and Resurrection.
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Post by clusium on Sept 19, 2018 14:37:08 GMT
That's correct. Jesus Fulfilled the Scriptures which said that the Lord Would Suffer. Eg: Psalm 22; Isaiah 52; and Wisdom 2 (not included in Protestant Scriptures). Clearly you're not getting the point of this whole 'circular logic' thing, which suggests you've been marinating your brain in it for far too many years. I don't see what was so circular about my answer to your question about what makes Christianity the truth: Christ's Passion, Death, and Resurrection. You pointed out how some sects have varying views of Christ's Divinity, & then asked what was it about Christianity that makes it true, so I answered. While Christians today may have differing theologies surrounding the Lord's Divinity, they do not refute His Death & Resurrection, and that it was to Save humanity from their sins.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 19, 2018 18:29:09 GMT
Clearly you're not getting the point of this whole 'circular logic' thing, which suggests you've been marinating your brain in it for far too many years. I don't see what was so circular about my answer to your question about what makes Christianity the truth: Christ's Passion, Death, and Resurrection. You pointed out how some sects have varying views of Christ's Divinity, & then asked what was it about Christianity that makes it true, so I answered. While Christians today may have differing theologies surrounding the Lord's Divinity, they do not refute His Death & Resurrection, and that it was to Save humanity from their sins. You're repeatedly making the assertion that because Jesus underwent martyrdom this de facto makes Christianity the 'true' religion. You're arguing for the truth of the premise from the outcome of that premise. That's circular reasoning. I don't expect you to see this at all.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 19, 2018 18:30:58 GMT
I could have asked her the same thing--she's beginning to sound uncannily like friend vegas. Well, which ever one it is, it appears to have gone moldy or rancid. I think she's that special limited edition 'venom' flavor .
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Post by clusium on Sept 19, 2018 18:31:45 GMT
I don't see what was so circular about my answer to your question about what makes Christianity the truth: Christ's Passion, Death, and Resurrection. You pointed out how some sects have varying views of Christ's Divinity, & then asked what was it about Christianity that makes it true, so I answered. While Christians today may have differing theologies surrounding the Lord's Divinity, they do not refute His Death & Resurrection, and that it was to Save humanity from their sins. You're repeatedly making the assertion that because Jesus underwent martyrdom this de facto makes Christianity the 'true' religion. You're arguing for the truth of the premise from the outcome of that premise. That's circular reasoning. I don't expect you to see this at all. It's not just His Martyrdom. It is His Resurrection from the Dead as well.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 19, 2018 18:33:46 GMT
You're repeatedly making the assertion that because Jesus underwent martyrdom this de facto makes Christianity the 'true' religion. You're arguing for the truth of the premise from the outcome of that premise. That's circular reasoning. I don't expect you to see this at all. It's not just His Martyrdom. It is His Resurrection from the Dead as well. Oh, well, sorry mate..that changes everything .
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Post by Vegas on Sept 19, 2018 18:35:26 GMT
I don't see what was so circular about my answer to your question about what makes Christianity the truth: Christ's Passion, Death, and Resurrection. You pointed out how some sects have varying views of Christ's Divinity, & then asked what was it about Christianity that makes it true, so I answered. While Christians today may have differing theologies surrounding the Lord's Divinity, they do not refute His Death & Resurrection, and that it was to Save humanity from their sins. You're repeatedly making the assertion that because Jesus underwent martyrdom this de facto makes Christianity the 'true' religion. You're arguing for the truth of the premise from the outcome of that premise. That's circular reasoning. I don't expect you to see this at all. I think you two are having two separate conversations... While you are questioning the proof of Christianity as being true, he is saying that your assertation that "Christianity is false because they can't agree on Christ's divinity" isn't true because Christians, as a whole, do agree on the basics.
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Post by clusium on Sept 19, 2018 18:50:16 GMT
You're repeatedly making the assertion that because Jesus underwent martyrdom this de facto makes Christianity the 'true' religion. You're arguing for the truth of the premise from the outcome of that premise. That's circular reasoning. I don't expect you to see this at all. I think you two are having two separate conversations... While you are questioning the proof of Christianity as being true, he is saying that your assertation that "Christianity is false because they can't agree on Christ's divinity" isn't true because Christians, as a whole, do agree on the basics. That's right. Just one thing I feel I should correct you on, Vegas: "I'm a 'she,' not 'he.'
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Post by Vegas on Sept 19, 2018 18:54:53 GMT
I think you two are having two separate conversations... While you are questioning the proof of Christianity as being true, he is saying that your assertation that "Christianity is false because they can't agree on Christ's divinity" isn't true because Christians, as a whole, do agree on the basics. That's right. Just one thing I feel I should correct you on, Vegas: "I'm a 'she,' not 'he.' Oh yeah.... You've corrected me on that before. My apologies.
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Post by clusium on Sept 19, 2018 18:57:09 GMT
That's right. Just one thing I feel I should correct you on, Vegas: "I'm a 'she,' not 'he.' Oh yeah.... You've corrected me on that before. My apologies. It's okay.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 19, 2018 21:08:38 GMT
I think she's that special limited edition 'venom' flavor . Good call! Perhaps though, 'venom' might be a bit too strong, especially since she doesn't seem self-aware enough about what she is saying, or willing to be flexible and open-minded enough to step out of this clock of cotton-wool she has wrapped herself in. I think the 'precious' edition might be more fitting. It's written all over the big massive font she posts in as well.
Lol, I wondered what was up with the 'Comic Sans' font myself. Doesn't seem exactly like the one you'd pick if you wanted to be taken seriously (or taken for the messenger of god, or suchlike).
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Post by clusium on Sept 19, 2018 23:14:34 GMT
It's not just His Martyrdom. It is His Resurrection from the Dead as well. Regardless of what Christians believe, what is it exactly makes this belief true and please don't tell me faith? Our Lord's post-Death Appearances to His disciples, and their willingness to die themselves than to deny it.
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Post by goz on Sept 19, 2018 23:31:33 GMT
Regardless of what Christians believe, what is it exactly makes this belief true and please don't tell me faith? Our Lord's post-Death Appearances to His disciples, and their willingness to die themselves than to deny it. How do you know that any of this happened? If you said 'because the Bible told me' then you are guilty (?) of 'circular reasoning'. ie you believe what is in the Bible because the Bible told you so.
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Post by clusium on Sept 19, 2018 23:35:35 GMT
Our Lord's post-Death Appearances to His disciples, and their willingness to die themselves than to deny it. How do you know that any of this happened? If you said 'because the Bible told me' then you are guilty (?) of 'circular reasoning'. ie you believe what is in the Bible because the Bible told you so. The only 2 disciples of Our Lord, Whose martyrdoms are recorded in the Holy Bible are Sts. Stephen & James the brother of John.
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Post by goz on Sept 19, 2018 23:41:12 GMT
How do you know that any of this happened? If you said 'because the Bible told me' then you are guilty (?) of 'circular reasoning'. ie you believe what is in the Bible because the Bible told you so. The only 2 disciples of Our Lord, Whose martyrdoms are recorded in the Holy Bible are Sts. Stephen & James the brother of John. OK. So how do you know that all the stuff that you believe about Jesus really happened? btw you are prevaricating and deflecting here. I actually think you perfectly understand 'circular reasoning' and you just want it to go away because it points out the logical fallacy of your faith. Sorry to break it to you.
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Post by clusium on Sept 19, 2018 23:48:29 GMT
The only 2 disciples of Our Lord, Whose martyrdoms are recorded in the Holy Bible are Sts. Stephen & James the brother of John. OK. So how do you know that all the stuff that you believe about Jesus really happened? btw you are prevaricating and deflecting here. I actually think you perfectly understand 'circular reasoning' and you just want it to go away because it points out the logical fallacy of your faith. Sorry to break it to you. In what way am I "prevaricating and deflecting here?!?!" Even writers outside of the Bible & Christian writings said that Christ was a Religious Teach that had Been Crucified.
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Post by goz on Sept 20, 2018 0:11:33 GMT
OK. So how do you know that all the stuff that you believe about Jesus really happened? btw you are prevaricating and deflecting here. I actually think you perfectly understand 'circular reasoning' and you just want it to go away because it points out the logical fallacy of your faith. Sorry to break it to you. In what way am I "prevaricating and deflecting here?!?!" Even writers outside of the Bible & Christian writings said that Christ was a Religious Teach that had Been Crucified. You are bringing up details of the Biblical record that are not central to the argument which is whether your faith is based on fact and truth or whether it is based on what you(plural) interpret the Bible says and because it says to have the faith that you have, hence the circular reasoning. Does that fact make it true that Jesus was the son of God as you so obviously believe?
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Post by clusium on Sept 20, 2018 2:55:48 GMT
Our Lord's post-Death Appearances to His disciples, and their willingness to die themselves than to deny it. How is that truth though and how do you gauge this truth? If it was all a whole lie, they would have cowed out of preaching the Lord's Resurrection. Especially when you consider how sadistic Capital Punishment was in ancient times.
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Post by goz on Sept 20, 2018 3:04:55 GMT
That is another logical fallacy How is that truth though and how do you gauge this truth? If it was all a whole lie, they would have cowed out of preaching the Lord's Resurrection. Especially when you consider how sadistic Capital Punishment was in ancient times. That is another logical fallacy which doesn't even make sense. What do you mean? Who is 'they'? What is the direct relevance of your remark about capital punishment in that day to the truth of whether the Jesus story is true, especially his divinity.
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Post by clusium on Sept 20, 2018 3:05:22 GMT
In what way am I "prevaricating and deflecting here?!?!" Even writers outside of the Bible & Christian writings said that Christ was a Religious Teach that had Been Crucified. Because you can't reason with simple logic and explanations, only see it as your belief and so it must be true because the bible says so and see that as an absolute. You have no sense of discernment, believe in fallacies and bogus accounts of something you can't POSSIBLY have any concrete sounding or fact based evidence to prove YOUR truth as it has been conditioned and brainwashed onto you. When you get back to the point you started at with your 'circular reasoning', you can only see one pov and that is what is inside the circle and forget that there is space all around it as well. You overlook one thing here, Cheesy: I never said I believed it was true, just because it is in the Holy Bible. Amysghost asked why I believe Christianity to be the truth, & I answered: Because Of Christ's Passion, Death, and Resurrection. FYI, I HAVE studied world religions, & have done so for many, many years. Interesting beliefs; interesting theologies. I still come away withe conclusion that Christianity is truth because of Christ's Suffering & Death for all our sins, & His Conquering Death by His Resurrection. Islam also claims to have the fullness of Truth, yet, all its belief is, there Is Only One God. That belief is shared by numerous religions (Christianity included). All the differences between other monotheistic religions seem to be that they have different founding Prophets, Gurus, or other kinds of religious leaders. Christianity takes it a step further by the fact that Christ Is MORE than just a Prophet: He Is the Son Of God.
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