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Post by bud47 on Oct 2, 2018 22:18:52 GMT
Again. Why. Should. We. Care? Seriously? That’s like asking why should we care about what Laura was going through in Logan because she wasn’t in any of the previous films. When the main character of Léon: The Professional died at the end of the film the audiences cared and that was his only appearances ever. A single film can create investment in a character and kill them off in the very movie they were introduced and provoke sympathy in the audience, films have been doing that for decades. Hell, look at Scarlet Witch and Vision’s relationship in Infinity War. Her losing him was sad despite the fact that they were only a couple for that one movie and they only teased at it in Civil War. Yet we've been with this version of Beast since First Class and we could care less about him. The only characters that have gotten any meaningful development since then is Xavier, Magneto, Mystique and of course, their bread and butter - Wolverine. Other than that, these characters (including important ones such as Cyclops, Storm, Jean, Nightcrawler, Quicksilver, etc.) seem to only be in these films for their powers. They're only giving Jean the spotlight now because they've had a hard-on for the Dark Phoenix saga since 2003 and just can't seem to scratch that itch enough.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 2, 2018 22:51:58 GMT
Seriously? That’s like asking why should we care about what Laura was going through in Logan because she wasn’t in any of the previous films. When the main character of Léon: The Professional died at the end of the film the audiences cared and that was his only appearances ever. A single film can create investment in a character and kill them off in the very movie they were introduced and provoke sympathy in the audience, films have been doing that for decades. Hell, look at Scarlet Witch and Vision’s relationship in Infinity War. Her losing him was sad despite the fact that they were only a couple for that one movie and they only teased at it in Civil War. Yet we've been with this version of Beast since First Class and we could care less about him. The only characters that have gotten any meaningful development since then is Xavier, Magneto, Mystique and of course, their bread and butter - Wolverine. Other than that, these characters (including important ones such as Cyclops, Storm, Jean, Nightcrawler, Quicksilver, etc.) seem to only be in these films for their powers. They're only giving Jean the spotlight now because they've had a hard-on for the Dark Phoenix saga since 2003 and just can't seem to scratch that itch enough. Beast got quit a bit of development in First Class, he’s just a bit underutilized in the following films.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 3, 2018 12:00:18 GMT
Here’s another example: Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight. Didn’t appear in Batman Begins but people cared about his fall into madness and when he died in the movie he appeared in.
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Post by bud47 on Oct 3, 2018 14:17:47 GMT
Here’s another example: Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight. Didn’t appear in Batman Begins but people cared about his fall into madness and when he died in the movie he appeared in. Yes, because he was properly developed within that film by a masterful director. We've had Nicholas Hoult as Beast for 4 films now and we could care less what happens with him. These characters are treated as cardboard cutouts. Maybe that will change solely for Jean Grey's character because of this being based on such a seminal comic book story, but I'm not holding out hope for anyone else in the film not named Xavier, Magneto or Mystique.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 3, 2018 14:37:59 GMT
There is absolutely no getting around the fact that the X-Men films are extremely problematic. None of that matters anymore.
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 3, 2018 17:45:30 GMT
Again. Why. Should. We. Care? Seriously? That’s like asking why should we care about what Laura was going through in Logan because she wasn’t in any of the previous films. When the main character of Léon: The Professional died at the end of the film the audiences cared and that was his only appearance ever. A single film can create investment in a character and kill them off in the very movie they were introduced and provoke sympathy in the audience, films have been doing that for decades. Hell, look at Scarlet Witch and Vision’s relationship in Infinity War. Her losing him was sad despite the fact that they were only a couple for that one movie and they only teased at it in Civil War. We cared because of Logan. We don't care because there is no one there to support Jean. We don't care about Cyclops. The trailer made us not care about Xavier by making him the a-hole in all this. Everyone else wants to kill her.
Teased it? They had conversations where you can see they are interested in each other. Them cooking dinner was done way better than the Mary Jane and Harry scene in Spider-man 3. All we got from Jean and Scott was him finally seeing her and thinking she's hot and him getting jealous of Logan.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 3, 2018 18:49:24 GMT
Seriously? That’s like asking why should we care about what Laura was going through in Logan because she wasn’t in any of the previous films. When the main character of Léon: The Professional died at the end of the film the audiences cared and that was his only appearance ever. A single film can create investment in a character and kill them off in the very movie they were introduced and provoke sympathy in the audience, films have been doing that for decades. Hell, look at Scarlet Witch and Vision’s relationship in Infinity War. Her losing him was sad despite the fact that they were only a couple for that one movie and they only teased at it in Civil War. We cared because of Logan. We don't care because there is no one there to support Jean. We don't care about Cyclops. The trailer made us not care about Xavier by making him the a-hole in all this. Everyone else wants to kill her.
Teased it? They had conversations where you can see they are interested in each other. Them cooking dinner was done way better than the Mary Jane and Harry scene in Spider-man 3. All we got from Jean and Scott was him finally seeing her and thinking she's hot and him getting jealous of Logan.
And what did the trailer tell us about what exactly Xavier did to make him an a-hole? There is no context and he obviously didn’t suppress her powers again since they are going with the cosmic force angle. In Apocalypse the two connected because they both share the struggle with their powers and Jean was there for Scott when his brother died, holding his hand. They were clearly interested in each other...like Scarlet Witch and Vision.
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 3, 2018 19:33:53 GMT
We cared because of Logan. We don't care because there is no one there to support Jean. We don't care about Cyclops. The trailer made us not care about Xavier by making him the a-hole in all this. Everyone else wants to kill her.
Teased it? They had conversations where you can see they are interested in each other. Them cooking dinner was done way better than the Mary Jane and Harry scene in Spider-man 3. All we got from Jean and Scott was him finally seeing her and thinking she's hot and him getting jealous of Logan.
And what did the trailer tell us about what exactly Xavier did to make him an a-hole? There is no context and he obviously didn’t suppress her powers again since they are going with the cosmic force angle. In Apocalypse the two connected because they both share the struggle with their powers and Jean was there for Scott when his brother died, holding his hand. They were clearly interested in each other...like Scarlet Witch and Vision. Doesn't matter what he did. He did something to her. Everything in the trailer was pointing at Xavier doing something wrong. Mystique, Magneto, Beast and Jean. Which is a retcon because we've already seen her as the Phoenix.
Nowhere near close to being the same. Or the actors had no chemistry.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 3, 2018 20:06:58 GMT
And what did the trailer tell us about what exactly Xavier did to make him an a-hole? There is no context and he obviously didn’t suppress her powers again since they are going with the cosmic force angle. In Apocalypse the two connected because they both share the struggle with their powers and Jean was there for Scott when his brother died, holding his hand. They were clearly interested in each other...like Scarlet Witch and Vision. Doesn't matter what he did. He did something to her. Everything in the trailer was pointing at Xavier doing something wrong. Mystique, Magneto, Beast and Jean. Which is a retcon because we've already seen her as the Phoenix.
Nowhere near close to being the same. Or the actors had no chemistry.
The huge time jumps between the modern movies don't help with the continuity of relationships. Does anyone know why they chose to do that?
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Post by bud47 on Oct 3, 2018 20:46:35 GMT
Doesn't matter what he did. He did something to her. Everything in the trailer was pointing at Xavier doing something wrong. Mystique, Magneto, Beast and Jean. Which is a retcon because we've already seen her as the Phoenix.
Nowhere near close to being the same. Or the actors had no chemistry.
The huge time jumps between the modern movies don't help with the continuity of relationships. Does anyone know why they chose to do that? First Class was supposed to be a reboot, but they just couldn't let those ties to the old films go, especially with Hugh Jackman still willing to play Wolverine at the time. So it became a pseudo-prequel and since then it's become nothing but a gimmick to explore the different decades of history in a mad dash to catch up with the original films. Especially X2, which was the peak and source of inspiration for the rest of the films in the franchise. It's strange because it almost makes it seem like nothing really happens in between these films and the characters don't appear to age or grow at all. It's like they go into hibernation then wake up in a new decade.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 3, 2018 20:48:27 GMT
And what did the trailer tell us about what exactly Xavier did to make him an a-hole? There is no context and he obviously didn’t suppress her powers again since they are going with the cosmic force angle. In Apocalypse the two connected because they both share the struggle with their powers and Jean was there for Scott when his brother died, holding his hand. They were clearly interested in each other...like Scarlet Witch and Vision. Doesn't matter what he did. He did something to her. Everything in the trailer was pointing at Xavier doing something wrong. Mystique, Magneto, Beast and Jean. Which is a retcon because we've already seen her as the Phoenix.
Nowhere near close to being the same. Or the actors had no chemistry.
The trailer didn’t indicate that he did something but that he hide the truth from her. That her dreams in Apocalypse were visions of the future? That she accidentally killed her parents? That she killed Scott in another life? Maybe all of the above? Were his actions justified? We don’t know. Whatever you say.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 3, 2018 21:35:01 GMT
Doesn't matter what he did. He did something to her. Everything in the trailer was pointing at Xavier doing something wrong. Mystique, Magneto, Beast and Jean. Which is a retcon because we've already seen her as the Phoenix.
Nowhere near close to being the same. Or the actors had no chemistry.
The trailer didn’t indicate that he did something but that he hide the truth from her. That her dreams in Apocalypse were visions of the future? That she accidentally killed her parents? That she killed Scott in another life? Maybe all of the above? Were his actions justified? We don’t know. Whatever you say. Mystique does ask Xavier in the trailer "What did you do?" He responds with something like, "I had to keep her stable. I had to protect her." The editing and performance queues implies he did something unethical. Altering or rewritting her memories would qualify as doing something to her.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 3, 2018 21:49:05 GMT
The trailer didn’t indicate that he did something but that he hide the truth from her. That her dreams in Apocalypse were visions of the future? That she accidentally killed her parents? That she killed Scott in another life? Maybe all of the above? Were his actions justified? We don’t know. Whatever you say. Mystique does ask Xavier in the trailer "What did you do?" He responds with something like, "I had to keep her stable. I had to protect her." The editing and performance queues implies he did something unethical. Altering or rewritting her memories would qualify as doing something to her. Yeah, it also follows with Mystique saying “from the truth”. That could imply that what he did was just not tell her something. Doesn’t necessarily mean he had to use his power.
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 3, 2018 21:51:46 GMT
Why do the X-men movies portray Jean as this evil child that they have to lock part of her mind away instead of a woman swayed into being evil?
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 3, 2018 21:56:09 GMT
Mystique does ask Xavier in the trailer "What did you do?" He responds with something like, "I had to keep her stable. I had to protect her." The editing and performance queues implies he did something unethical. Altering or rewritting her memories would qualify as doing something to her. Yeah, it also follows with Mystique saying “from the truth”. That could imply that what he did was just not tell her something. Doesn’t necessarily mean he had to use his power. Then she says "There's another word for that."
When have we ever seen Xavier not use his power when it comes to someone's mind? Lying or otherwise. It's in his nature as a person with mind control abilities to do so.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 3, 2018 22:02:16 GMT
Why do the X-men movies portray Jean as this evil child that they have to lock part of her mind away instead of a woman swayed into being evil? According to interviews Jessica’s character is going to sway her. Yeah, it also follows with Mystique saying “from the truth”. That could imply that what he did was just not tell her something. Doesn’t necessarily mean he had to use his power. Then she says "There's another word for that."
When have we ever seen Xavier not use his power when it comes to someone's mind? Lying or otherwise. It's in his nature as a person with mind control abilities to do so.
Well there is the case with Wolverine. In X2 Magneto says that he is not telling Logan everything so he wouldn’t lose a valuable member of the X-Men. It’s later confirmed in DOFP when Wolverine says that Charles fully unlocked his mind.
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 3, 2018 23:36:29 GMT
Why do the X-men movies portray Jean as this evil child that they have to lock part of her mind away instead of a woman swayed into being evil? According to interviews Jessica’s character is going to sway her. Then she says "There's another word for that."
When have we ever seen Xavier not use his power when it comes to someone's mind? Lying or otherwise. It's in his nature as a person with mind control abilities to do so.
Well there is the case with Wolverine. In X2 Magneto says that he is not telling Logan everything so he wouldn’t lose a valuable member of the X-Men. It’s later confirmed in DOFP when Wolverine says that Charles fully unlocked his mind. But she was an evil child, though. So there isn't much swaying. Basically she just helped unlock what she was.
And that's Charles being an a-hole for sending Logan on wild goose chases when he knows that he can unlock his mind.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 0:27:06 GMT
Here’s another example: Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight. Didn’t appear in Batman Begins but people cared about his fall into madness and when he died in the movie he appeared in. Yes, because he was properly developed within that film by a masterful director. We've had Nicholas Hoult as Beast for 4 films now and we could care less what happens with him. These characters are treated as cardboard cutouts. Maybe that will change solely for Jean Grey's character because of this being based on such a seminal comic book story, but I'm not holding out hope for anyone else in the film not named Xavier, Magneto or Mystique. Harvey Dent was actually played by a good actor too. We have Sophie Turner as Jean Grey and she is an absolute shit actress. So her trying to garner any emotion out of the viewer entirely in one film is going to be damn near impossible. I do agree with you entirely though. None of these characters I give a shit about outside of Magneto and Xavier and that's mostly because those 2 actors have done amazing jobs. Anyone else could literally not appear and wouldn't be missed by me in the least.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 4, 2018 0:32:10 GMT
According to interviews Jessica’s character is going to sway her. Well there is the case with Wolverine. In X2 Magneto says that he is not telling Logan everything so he wouldn’t lose a valuable member of the X-Men. It’s later confirmed in DOFP when Wolverine says that Charles fully unlocked his mind. But she was an evil child, though. So there isn't much swaying. Basically she just helped unlock what she was.
And that's Charles being an a-hole for sending Logan on wild goose chases when he knows that he can unlock his mind.
I doubt she killed her parents on purpose. Indeed Xavier is a jerk. Comic Xavier as he is written in the 21st century is way worse though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 0:35:42 GMT
I've come to realize that comic book movies don't really get romantic relationships right in my mind or at least to the effect of making me give a shit about it in general. I can't think of a single comic book movie where I cared whether or not a relationship worked out or whether or not the loved one even died. I don't give a shit about Scott/Jean, Logan/Jean, Rogue/Iceman, Stark/Pepper, Thor/Jane, Bruce/Widow, Vision/Wanda. Name any of them in any film and I just have never given a shit. I'm willing to buy into relationships in movies and there will be times I'm rooting for that shit. I remember being over joyed in the movie 50/50 when JGL and Anna Kendrick's characters got together. In the comic book movies any of the love interests just come across and super bland and uninteresting. Vision and Wanda has literally given me nothing to form any type of connection to. When we had the Vision/Wanda/Thanos scene near the end of Infinity War I wasn't given any real reason to care about what happened to Vision. I found that scene to be rather cheesy because it felt like I was supposed to care without really giving me much reason to actually do so.
The closest I came to actually caring about an on screen couple in a comic book movie was Garfield and Stone in the Amazing Spider-Man movies. They had amazing chemistry and were the highlights of both films. They were dating at the time so the chemistry made sense. Also those movies weren't good but they were the best parts. I also knew Gwen Stacy's fate so it wasn't going to get a HUGE emotional moment out of me when it happened. However that has been the closest I've ever come to be invested in any sort of love interest in a comic book movie. They just don't seem to do them well at all.
So in the end I have zero faith that this film will make me any sort of invested in a Jean/Scott relationship. Need better actors then what we're given for me to care about characters that I have little to no care for to begin with.
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