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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 4, 2018 13:55:44 GMT
Doesn't matter what he did. He did something to her. Everything in the trailer was pointing at Xavier doing something wrong. Mystique, Magneto, Beast and Jean. Which is a retcon because we've already seen her as the Phoenix.
Nowhere near close to being the same. Or the actors had no chemistry.
The huge time jumps between the modern movies don't help with the continuity of relationships. Does anyone know why they chose to do that? They chose to do it because it's a soft reboot every time out of the gate. They throw crap against the wall and see what sticks. This was my point the other day. None of the moments in Dark Phoenix are going to feel earned because we barely know some of the central characters. Again, they know this, which is why they've made the movie (at least what's presented in the trailer) about Charles. To me, the story doesn't work if you don't care about the characters; if you don't believe Scott and Jean care about each other; that the rest of the X-Men are willing to fight and die for her even after learning what she's done. (And what she's done is anyone's guess as we aren't shown anything cosmic in that trailer.) Dark Phoenix without the cosmic element, or Mastermind sending her down a dark path to begin with, is not Dark Phoenix-- no matter how many screen shots of characters' faces are posted regarding a single scene in the film. But I digress... None of the X-Men movies ever make any sense because the timeline jumps all over the place and the writing in any given film is so shoddy. The characters rarely have believable motivations that carry the narrative of a single film, let alone a connected universe. It's a complete mess and they only make it worse with each retcon.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 4, 2018 14:34:12 GMT
The huge time jumps between the modern movies don't help with the continuity of relationships. Does anyone know why they chose to do that? They chose to do it because it's a soft reboot every time out of the gate. They throw crap against the wall and see what sticks. This was my point the other day. None of the moments in Dark Phoenix are going to feel earned because we barely know some of the central characters. Again, they know this, which is why they've made the movie (at least what's presented in the trailer) about Charles. To me, the story doesn't work if you don't care about the characters; if you don't believe Scott and Jean care about each other; that the rest of the X-Men are willing to fight and die for her even after learning what she's done. (And what she's done is anyone's guess as we aren't shown anything cosmic in that trailer.) Dark Phoenix without the cosmic element, or Mastermind sending her down a dark path to begin with, is not Dark Phoenix-- no matter how many screen shots of characters' faces are posted regarding a single scene in the film. But I digress... None of the X-Men movies ever make any sense because the timeline jumps all over the place and the writing in any given film is so shoddy. The characters rarely have believable motivations that carry the narrative of a single film, let alone a connected universe. It's a complete mess and they only make it worse with each retcon. You've made good points, some that are nearly impossible to refute. I'm not rising to the defense of Dark Phoenix as I find myself to be neutral on the entire franchise now that it is drawing to a close. It makes little sense to kick a dying man as he lay dying. That said, let's pretend for a moment that there are no other X-Men films in the franchise and Dark Phoenix stands alone. With the approximately two hours Fox has to do so, could they make us care about Jean? Could they convince us of the depth of her relationship with Scott? Could they show us that others have manipulated her for most of her life and, that that has caused lasting and irreversible damage to her psyche? And can they convincingly depict the fall of a tragic hero to forces beyond her control and beyond anyone's comprehension? They've got two hours or so to do all of that --- well. Can they pull it off? I'm skeptical because I see a lot of other things going on besides all of that.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 4, 2018 14:58:09 GMT
They chose to do it because it's a soft reboot every time out of the gate. They throw crap against the wall and see what sticks. This was my point the other day. None of the moments in Dark Phoenix are going to feel earned because we barely know some of the central characters. Again, they know this, which is why they've made the movie (at least what's presented in the trailer) about Charles. To me, the story doesn't work if you don't care about the characters; if you don't believe Scott and Jean care about each other; that the rest of the X-Men are willing to fight and die for her even after learning what she's done. (And what she's done is anyone's guess as we aren't shown anything cosmic in that trailer.) Dark Phoenix without the cosmic element, or Mastermind sending her down a dark path to begin with, is not Dark Phoenix-- no matter how many screen shots of characters' faces are posted regarding a single scene in the film. But I digress... None of the X-Men movies ever make any sense because the timeline jumps all over the place and the writing in any given film is so shoddy. The characters rarely have believable motivations that carry the narrative of a single film, let alone a connected universe. It's a complete mess and they only make it worse with each retcon. You've made good points, some that are nearly impossible to refute. I'm not rising to the defense of Dark Phoenix as I find myself to be neutral on the entire franchise now that it is drawing to a close. It makes little sense to kick a dying man as he lay dying. That said, let's pretend for a moment that there are no other X-Men films in the franchise and Dark Phoenix stands alone. With the approximately two hours Fox has to do so, could they make us care about Jean? Could they convince us of the depth of her relationship with Scott? Could they show us that others have manipulated her for most of her life and, that that has caused lasting and irreversible damage to her psyche? And can they convincingly depict the fall of a tragic hero to forces beyond her control and beyond anyone's comprehension?
They've got two hours or so to do all of that. Can they pull it off? I'm skeptical because I see a lot of other things going on besides all of that. No, and I say that for two reasons. The trailer itself, and Fox's track record. Continuity aside, they've never shown the ability to instill their films with the necessary emotional depth. Much of the trailer revolves around Xavier's questionably morality and the failing dynamic with those closest to him-- resulting yet again in a clash of ideals with Magneto. How much screen time is given to the title character is anyone's guess. I'll say this: I could be wrong. As Shape pointed out, it's only a teaser. Maybe they go full cosmic. Maybe there are outside forces corrupting Jean that haven't been shown yet. But I can only go by what I've seen, and by Fox's track record. This looks like another soulless effects extravaganza without compelling characters to build a narrative around. As usual, Fox seems to have focused on style over substance with these stories.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 5, 2018 0:28:54 GMT
How is majority of people saying its fine, now means a negative/not such a good response in your world? Well it needs to be more than that. This movie is a sequel to a movie that saw a big financial drop off from the last and had a mixed response. This one is already expected to make even less money on the Box Office forums. Trailers are meant to get people to want to see the movie and here, the overwhelming majority just think the trailer is "fine". People aren't going to rush out to see a movie like that. Word is that they took out the shot of Jean flying up a building and her going fully Phoenix at the end of the original trailer because it looked similar to Captain Marvel. Basically they removed the money shots.
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Post by summers8 on Oct 5, 2018 8:16:03 GMT
Um, remember when you said you did not care about Oscars? lol. mcu fans are funny. so much lies. that's the thing with actors. brie is a good actor but the mcu script is failing her. that is why most are not going with her and saying she sucks, sophie is a decent actor but if she has a better script, she will out do brie. oh, you see for me I do care about Oscars when people are nominated and win for merit. not like trying to buy the awards or politics. as said, mcu is finished. a kinberg movie looks better than captian marvel. sophie looks better than brie. ouchI don't care about the Oscars. But comparing the resumes of both actresses, Brie is more accomplished. You already decided to hate Captain Marvel before the film was even made. So your biased opinion means nothing to anyone. At this point, if Meryl Streep were to act in an MCU movie versus a WWE Diva "acting" in a Fox-Men movie, you'd probably say the WWE Diva is the better actress. if you did not care about Oscars, maybe you should not have said brie has an Oscar so it helps her more. poor mcu fans, they cant even keep it neutral. but then again us xmen and dc fans are not scared to write 10 criticsm of our movies. mcu fans cant even name 1 and even when they try to name 1 they try and fail to spin it as a positive.
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Post by summers8 on Oct 5, 2018 8:20:27 GMT
You've made good points, some that are nearly impossible to refute. I'm not rising to the defense of Dark Phoenix as I find myself to be neutral on the entire franchise now that it is drawing to a close. It makes little sense to kick a dying man as he lay dying. That said, let's pretend for a moment that there are no other X-Men films in the franchise and Dark Phoenix stands alone. With the approximately two hours Fox has to do so, could they make us care about Jean? Could they convince us of the depth of her relationship with Scott? Could they show us that others have manipulated her for most of her life and, that that has caused lasting and irreversible damage to her psyche? And can they convincingly depict the fall of a tragic hero to forces beyond her control and beyond anyone's comprehension?
They've got two hours or so to do all of that. Can they pull it off? I'm skeptical because I see a lot of other things going on besides all of that. No, and I say that for two reasons. The trailer itself, and Fox's track record. Continuity aside, they've never shown the ability to instill their films with the necessary emotional depth. Much of the trailer revolves around Xavier's questionably morality and the failing dynamic with those closest to him-- resulting yet again in a clash of ideals with Magneto. How much screen time is given to the title character is anyone's guess. I'll say this: I could be wrong. As Shape pointed out, it's only a teaser. Maybe they go full cosmic. Maybe there are outside forces corrupting Jean that haven't been shown yet. But I can only go by what I've seen, and by Fox's track record. This looks like another soulless effects extravaganza without compelling characters to build a narrative around. As usual, Fox seems to have focused on style over substance with these stories. when it comes to emotional depth you just confused fox films with MCU cgi comedies. remember it was xmen that brought emotional depth to comic movies. reason why they were grounded and drama heavy. please you mcu fans stop stealing xmen definition of good movies they are have been tirelessly praised for since 2000. remember when everyone said, if you did not cry at the end of Logan, you were a robot? reply back when MCU has this type of emotional depth. 2014. this defined emotional depth for comic films why star lord was dong a dance off the lies of mcu fans. so sad.
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Post by summers8 on Oct 5, 2018 8:31:59 GMT
They chose to do it because it's a soft reboot every time out of the gate. They throw crap against the wall and see what sticks. This was my point the other day. None of the moments in Dark Phoenix are going to feel earned because we barely know some of the central characters. Again, they know this, which is why they've made the movie (at least what's presented in the trailer) about Charles. To me, the story doesn't work if you don't care about the characters; if you don't believe Scott and Jean care about each other; that the rest of the X-Men are willing to fight and die for her even after learning what she's done. (And what she's done is anyone's guess as we aren't shown anything cosmic in that trailer.) Dark Phoenix without the cosmic element, or Mastermind sending her down a dark path to begin with, is not Dark Phoenix-- no matter how many screen shots of characters' faces are posted regarding a single scene in the film. But I digress... None of the X-Men movies ever make any sense because the timeline jumps all over the place and the writing in any given film is so shoddy. The characters rarely have believable motivations that carry the narrative of a single film, let alone a connected universe. It's a complete mess and they only make it worse with each retcon. You've made good points, some that are nearly impossible to refute. I'm not rising to the defense of Dark Phoenix as I find myself to be neutral on the entire franchise now that it is drawing to a close. It makes little sense to kick a dying man as he lay dying. That said, let's pretend for a moment that there are no other X-Men films in the franchise and Dark Phoenix stands alone. With the approximately two hours Fox has to do so, could they make us care about Jean? Could they convince us of the depth of her relationship with Scott? Could they show us that others have manipulated her for most of her life and, that that has caused lasting and irreversible damage to her psyche? And can they convincingly depict the fall of a tragic hero to forces beyond her control and beyond anyone's comprehension? They've got two hours or so to do all of that --- well. Can they pull it off? I'm skeptical because I see a lot of other things going on besides all of that. true. from a fan and objective stand point. it is impossible to pull off. Fox is missing one thing. just the Phoenix saga.there was a Phoenix saga before the dark Phoenix saga. the phoenix saga is what should make us care about jean. understand why the force chose her as a host body. then after that she becomes corrupted which becomes the dark phoenix saga. add that to this cast been young and unexperienced by a director even more in experienced. no way this movie will work. as a true xmen and marvel fan, I call out wrong when i see wrong. you have seen me say how awful mcu movies are and this movie (dark pheoinx) is wrong and would likely be awful.the good thing, disney can do is cancel this movie. I will say it again New Mutants and XForce are the last real X-Men movies.
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Post by summers8 on Oct 5, 2018 8:34:39 GMT
I've come to realize that comic book movies don't really get romantic relationships right in my mind or at least to the effect of making me give a shit about it in general. I can't think of a single comic book movie where I cared whether or not a relationship worked out or whether or not the loved one even died. I don't give a shit about Scott/Jean, Logan/Jean, Rogue/Iceman, Stark/Pepper, Thor/Jane, Bruce/Widow, Vision/Wanda. Name any of them in any film and I just have never given a shit. I'm willing to buy into relationships in movies and there will be times I'm rooting for that shit. I remember being over joyed in the movie 50/50 when JGL and Anna Kendrick's characters got together. In the comic book movies any of the love interests just come across and super bland and uninteresting. Vision and Wanda has literally given me nothing to form any type of connection to. When we had the Vision/Wanda/Thanos scene near the end of Infinity War I wasn't given any real reason to care about what happened to Vision. I found that scene to be rather cheesy because it felt like I was supposed to care without really giving me much reason to actually do so. The closest I came to actually caring about an on screen couple in a comic book movie was Garfield and Stone in the Amazing Spider-Man movies. They had amazing chemistry and were the highlights of both films. They were dating at the time so the chemistry made sense. Also those movies weren't good but they were the best parts. I also knew Gwen Stacy's fate so it wasn't going to get a HUGE emotional moment out of me when it happened. However that has been the closest I've ever come to be invested in any sort of love interest in a comic book movie. They just don't seem to do them well at all. So in the end I have zero faith that this film will make me any sort of invested in a Jean/Scott relationship. Need better actors then what we're given for me to care about characters that I have little to no care for to begin with. Spiderman/Mary Jane. Sam Raimi Spiderman movies. Superman/Lois Lane. Christoper Reeves Superman. Yes there is gwen/peter too but Garfield's Spiderman was beyond unlikable.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 5, 2018 13:01:25 GMT
You should ignore summers8. He’s admitted a couple of times to not care about this series.
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Post by bud47 on Oct 5, 2018 14:29:04 GMT
I don't care about the Oscars. But comparing the resumes of both actresses, Brie is more accomplished. You already decided to hate Captain Marvel before the film was even made. So your biased opinion means nothing to anyone. At this point, if Meryl Streep were to act in an MCU movie versus a WWE Diva "acting" in a Fox-Men movie, you'd probably say the WWE Diva is the better actress. if you did not care about Oscars, maybe you should not have said brie has an Oscar so it helps her more. poor mcu fans, they cant even keep it neutral. but then again us xmen and dc fans are not scared to write 10 criticsm of our movies. mcu fans cant even name 1 and even when they try to name 1 they try and fail to spin it as a positive. Playing catch-up I see. Everything you say just makes you sound more desperate and pathetic. Just give it up.
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Post by bud47 on Oct 5, 2018 14:33:20 GMT
You've made good points, some that are nearly impossible to refute. I'm not rising to the defense of Dark Phoenix as I find myself to be neutral on the entire franchise now that it is drawing to a close. It makes little sense to kick a dying man as he lay dying. That said, let's pretend for a moment that there are no other X-Men films in the franchise and Dark Phoenix stands alone. With the approximately two hours Fox has to do so, could they make us care about Jean? Could they convince us of the depth of her relationship with Scott? Could they show us that others have manipulated her for most of her life and, that that has caused lasting and irreversible damage to her psyche? And can they convincingly depict the fall of a tragic hero to forces beyond her control and beyond anyone's comprehension? They've got two hours or so to do all of that --- well. Can they pull it off? I'm skeptical because I see a lot of other things going on besides all of that. true. from a fan and objective stand point. it is impossible to pull off. Fox is missing one thing. just the Phoenix saga.there was a Phoenix saga before the dark Phoenix saga. the phoenix saga is what should make us care about jean. understand why the force chose her as a host body. then after that she becomes corrupted which becomes the dark phoenix saga. add that to this cast been young and unexperienced by a director even more in experienced. no way this movie will work. as a true xmen and marvel fan, I call out wrong when i see wrong. you have seen me say how awful mcu movies are and this movie (dark pheoinx) is wrong and would likely be awful.the good thing, disney can do is cancel this movie. I will say it again New Mutants and XForce are the last real X-Men movies.With rumors going around that the Fox/Disney deal may be finalized before the end of the year, X-Force (like Gambit) isn't happening and New Mutants is most likely going to be scrapped, seeing as how the reshoots (the whole movie apparently) haven't even started yet. They should have ended with Logan and been done with it.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 5, 2018 19:33:24 GMT
true. from a fan and objective stand point. it is impossible to pull off. Fox is missing one thing. just the Phoenix saga.there was a Phoenix saga before the dark Phoenix saga. the phoenix saga is what should make us care about jean. understand why the force chose her as a host body. then after that she becomes corrupted which becomes the dark phoenix saga. add that to this cast been young and unexperienced by a director even more in experienced. no way this movie will work. as a true xmen and marvel fan, I call out wrong when i see wrong. you have seen me say how awful mcu movies are and this movie (dark pheoinx) is wrong and would likely be awful.the good thing, disney can do is cancel this movie. I will say it again New Mutants and XForce are the last real X-Men movies.With rumors going around that the Fox/Disney deal may be finalized before the end of the year, X-Force (like Gambit) isn't happening and New Mutants is most likely going to be scrapped, seeing as how the reshoots (the whole movie apparently) haven't even started yet. They should have ended with Logan and been done with it. Disney will release any Fox film completed or in production and it will still take a while for Disney to require the assents. Also Disney has only said that Kevin Feige will oversee Marvel properties and nothing beyond that. I remember after the merger was accounced Chris Hemsworth and Sebastian Stan asked Hugh Jackman to return as Wolverine. Cameo in Doctor Strange 2 or something that explores the multiverse that was mentioned in the first Doctor Strange? Who knows what they have planned.
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Post by charzhino on Oct 5, 2018 21:16:16 GMT
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Post by summers8 on Oct 6, 2018 10:54:35 GMT
true. from a fan and objective stand point. it is impossible to pull off. Fox is missing one thing. just the Phoenix saga.there was a Phoenix saga before the dark Phoenix saga. the phoenix saga is what should make us care about jean. understand why the force chose her as a host body. then after that she becomes corrupted which becomes the dark phoenix saga. add that to this cast been young and unexperienced by a director even more in experienced. no way this movie will work. as a true xmen and marvel fan, I call out wrong when i see wrong. you have seen me say how awful mcu movies are and this movie (dark pheoinx) is wrong and would likely be awful.the good thing, disney can do is cancel this movie. I will say it again New Mutants and XForce are the last real X-Men movies.With rumors going around that the Fox/Disney deal may be finalized before the end of the year, X-Force (like Gambit) isn't happening and New Mutants is most likely going to be scrapped, seeing as how the reshoots (the whole movie apparently) haven't even started yet. They should have ended with Logan and been done with it. And when will MCU let their awful movies end? or do we have to sit around and let steven Spielberg's prediction about the genre come to pass again.
spoken like thatguy, new mutants will be scrapped because mcu fans are scared of a drama horror movie to the point they dont want it to get released.
your words are funny, considering the first disney xmen movie would be done with before it even hits the fan hated by xmen fans, intellectual movie audiences and film makers all over the world.
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Post by summers8 on Oct 6, 2018 10:58:07 GMT
eh dont get your hopes up chazhino.
I still think the highest the film will go is X-Men 1 level If it is considered good.
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Post by summers8 on Oct 6, 2018 10:59:52 GMT
if you did not care about Oscars, maybe you should not have said brie has an Oscar so it helps her more. poor mcu fans, they cant even keep it neutral. but then again us xmen and dc fans are not scared to write 10 criticsm of our movies. mcu fans cant even name 1 and even when they try to name 1 they try and fail to spin it as a positive. Playing catch-up I see. Everything you say just makes you sound more desperate and pathetic. Just give it up. catch up.
logan and tdk did not beg for oscars.
has mcu giving up their begging? lol. talk of desperate and pathetic.not movies like logan and tdk I respect.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2018 11:15:04 GMT
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 6, 2018 11:16:53 GMT
Playing catch-up I see. Everything you say just makes you sound more desperate and pathetic. Just give it up. catch up.
logan and tdk did not beg for oscars.
has mcu giving up their begging? lol. talk of desperate and pathetic.not movies like logan and tdk I respect.
Actually, yes. Yes, they did. You do know that most of these awards are done like an election, right? You think that the Academy selects all these movies? Or is it the studios put in the movies... WB and Fox put in TDK and Logan for consideration. That's why you get movies like Suicide Squad getting in and actually winning. WB probably gave the most gifts.
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Post by charzhino on Oct 6, 2018 14:10:43 GMT
Theres a comic con going on at NY and this is one of the verfified attendees whose got to see the opening to Dark Phoneix.
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Post by charzhino on Oct 6, 2018 14:11:52 GMT
eh dont get your hopes up chazhino.
I still think the highest the film will go is X-Men 1 level If it is considered good.
Probably will be but im interested to find out how they complete the series.
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