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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 2, 2018 11:47:35 GMT
I think you meant be confusing it with another Phoenix story. You’re very misinformed. We're not talking about cartoons. Read the comics and get back to me, junior.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 2, 2018 12:26:29 GMT
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 2, 2018 12:57:12 GMT
You must work for the studio. "Hey, here are some individual screen shots that prove the movie is identical to the story in the comics." You focus on the aesthetics instead of the meat of the story. The best material from the original storyline is nowhere to be seen in the trailer, and you've done nothing to refute that. By all means keep doubling down on this one scene, though. I particularly enjoy the screen shots of a lone character's face from the cartoon and then the movie. Yes, they really nailed it.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 2, 2018 12:59:28 GMT
You must work for the studio. "Hey, here are some individual screen shots that prove the movie is identical to the story in the comics." You focus on the aesthetics instead of the meat of the story. The best material from the original storyline is nowhere to be seen in the trailer, and you've done nothing to refute that. By all means keep doubling down on this one scene, though. I particularly enjoy the screen shots of a lone character's face from the cartoon and then the movie. Yes, they really nailed it. Never said that it will to be identical and a trailer is not suppose to showcase the meat of the story.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 2, 2018 13:18:01 GMT
You must work for the studio. "Hey, here are some individual screen shots that prove the movie is identical to the story in the comics." You focus on the aesthetics instead of the meat of the story. The best material from the original storyline is nowhere to be seen in the trailer, and you've done nothing to refute that. By all means keep doubling down on this one scene, though. I particularly enjoy the screen shots of a lone character's face from the cartoon and then the movie. Yes, they really nailed it. Never said that it will to be identical and a trailer is not suppose to showcase the meat of the story. No, but you said I was misinformed, which I am certainly not. You can disagree with me, you can love the trailer and the movie. But the fact remains that the trailer is retreading plot lines we've already seen in previous films, and shows us nothing of what made the original story great. Screen shots don't make a story. And a trailer is supposed to pull you in, make you understand what's at stake for the characters on a personal level. The story is about Jean and she has like four lines in the trailer, the rest is all shouting, scowling and someone unleashing a mutant power to dramatic effect. Why do we care what happens to her? Where is Mastermind and the Hellfire Club? Where are the Shi'Ar? Why are we rushing into Dark Phoenix when we barely know this version of Jean? They haven't earned this storyline with these characters. The whole thing feels hollow.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 2, 2018 13:32:50 GMT
No, but you said I was misinformed, which I am certainly not. I mean you are misinformed about the reason for the delay. Do you know what made the original great? It’s because it was boring-good-girl-gone-bad story. No, that is not what a teaser trailer is suppose to do. Excuse me? We knew less about the comic version of Jean in the original Dark Phoenix than this one. Jean in the comics didn’t get a backstory until after her death. She was an extremely underdeveloped and one dimensional character. I don’t think understand what made Dark Phoenix so famous. It wasn’t because Jean was a good character. Because she wasn’t.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 2, 2018 13:50:03 GMT
No, but you said I was misinformed, which I am certainly not. I called you misinformed because that is not the reason why it was delayed. Do you know what made the original great? It’s because it was boring-good-girl-gone-bad story. No, that is not what a teaser trailer is suppose to do. Excuse me? We knew less about the comic version of in the original Dark Phoenix than this one. Jean in the comics didn’t get a backstory until after her death. She was an extremely underdeveloped and one dimensional character. I don’t think understand what made Dark Phoenix so famous.Maybe you'll convince me if you post a few more screen shots of character close ups. Without any kind of dynamic between Scott and Jean, or Jean and the entire team, there's no emotional stakes to the story. You feel it when she starts to lose it in the comics. You feel the anguish of Professor X when he starts to realize there's nothing he can do to stop it when the X-Men are getting their asses handed to them by the Shi'ar. Her madness, ascension to near godhood and eventual self-sacrifice only mean anything if you've been on an emotional journey with the characters. Instead of showing us any of that, this trailer somehow becomes yet another clash of philosophies between Eric and Charles. This team hasn't been together long enough for this story to matter the way it should, period. They know it too, that's why they use the Magneto/Xavier dynamic as filler. "The audience is familiar with them, at least." The movie has been continually delayed because they don't know what they're doing. You want proof? The trailer hasn't even been out that long and the film has already been delayed yet again. And changing your argument to the semantics of teasers versus full trailers does not refute my claim that this trailer is devoid of anything that made the original story great. You can keep inventing arguments and posting screen shots of characters standing around to your heart's content, I don't see the point of continuing this conversation. I hope you love the film with the passion you're expressing in defending this bland rehash.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 2, 2018 14:05:21 GMT
Maybe you'll convince me if you post a few more screen shots of character close ups. Without any kind of dynamic between Scott and Jean, or Jean and the entire team, there's no emotional stakes to the story. You feel it when she starts to lose it in the comics. You feel the anguish of Professor X when he starts to realize there's nothing he can do to stop it when the X-Men are getting their asses handed to them by the Shi'ar. Her madness, ascension to near godhood and eventual self-sacrifice only mean anything if you've been on an emotional journey with the characters. Instead of showing us any of that, this trailer somehow becomes yet another clash of philosophies between Eric and Charles. This team hasn't been together long enough for this story to matter the way it should, period. They know it too, that's why they use the Magneto/Xavier dynamic as filler. "The audience is familiar with them, at least." First off, why would you put her death in a teaser trailer? Spoiler, much? I hope you don’t get a job editing movie trailers. Secondly, Jean’s dynamic with Scott was that she was simply a hollow love interest and the dynamic Jean had with the team is that she was the token girl and weakest X-man before she became Phoenix. What made the Phoenix storyline so famous is that Jean becomes the complete opposite of who she was. She goes from the weakest X-Man to the strongest and later this boring good girl becomes a chaos bringer. Which of course wouldn’t be effective at all nowadays since everyone knows that Jean is powerful and is capable of evil thanks to the original trilogy. This film is going down a different angle. Seemly, the emotional stake of the movie is that Xavier is trying to keep the promise he made to Wolverine in DOFP to save Jean from the fate she had in the original timeline. It’s not a reharsh but a countination of a storyline that happened in the original trilogy. Xavier’s second chance with Jean. It’s not a reharsh but a continuation of Jean and Xavier’s storyline from the original trilogy. I’m not sure what philosophy clash you saw in the trailer. The only exchange they have is Xavier apologizing to Magneto who does not accept his apology. That’s not a clash of philosophies at all, dude. Trailer empathizes that this is Xavier’s fault, which was actually the case in the comic version. Changing arguments? Speak for yourself. We're not talking about cartoons. Read the comics and get back to me, junior. Then I actually showed there were also in the comic version. Which you replied: You must work for the studio. "Hey, here are some individual screen shots that prove the movie is identical to the story in the comics." You focus on the aesthetics instead of the meat of the story. The best material from the original storyline is nowhere to be seen in the trailer, and you've done nothing to refute that. By all means keep doubling down on this one scene, though. I particularly enjoy the screen shots of a lone character's face from the cartoon and then the movie. Yes, they really nailed it. To sum it up: “Damn! He actually showed one of the best parts of the original story was translated in the trailer after I was being so condescending! My ego can’t allow this! I’ll just say the trailer didn’t show the meat of the story!” Stop trying to save face. Concession accepted.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 2, 2018 16:40:08 GMT
Agent of Chaos Rey KahukaYour discussion is a perfect example of how if you're already predisposed to like the Fox X-Men films your arguments, analysis and supporting evidence tends to support their faithfulness to the source material and, if you are not, vice versa. The idea that there is a universally accepted reason that the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix storylines were so popular is a little hard to swallow for me (because it is the product of 20/20 hindsight and contemporary review). It's easy to make broad, sweeping generalizations but, if you read some of the fan mail from the era that was submitted in-the-moment, people enjoyed those stories for many different reasons. This is just a teaser trailer, for all we know some of the shots we see in it may not be in the film at all. Aren't they in the middle of reshoots at this very moment? Can we really say with 100% confidence, that casual audiences who don't spend their days drafting timelines and contributing to fans sites are going to understand this film as anything other than a remake of the Last Stand or some kind of elaborate do-over?
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 2, 2018 16:58:24 GMT
Agent of Chaos Rey Kahuka Your discussion is a perfect example of how if you're already predisposed to like the Fox X-Men films your arguments, analysis and supporting evidence tends to support their faithfulness to the source material and, if you are not, vice versa. The idea that there is a universally accepted reason that the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix storylines were so popular is a little hard to swallow for me (because it is the product of 20/20 hindsight and contemporary review). It's easy to make broad, sweeping generalizations but, if you read some of the fan mail from the era that was submitted in-the-moment, people enjoyed those stories for many different reasons. This is just a teaser trailer, for all we know some of the shots we see in it may not be in the film at all. Aren't they in the middle of reshoots at this very moment? Can we really say with 100% confidence, that casual audiences who don't spend their days drafting timelines and contributing to fans sites are going to understand this film as anything other than a remake of the Last Stand or some kind of elaborate do-over? I honesty think this is going to be as faithful as Infinity War was to Infinity Gauntlet. An overall original storyline with some plot points and scenes inspired by the comic version. My point is there are definitely comic inspired scenes in the trailer like funeral.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 2, 2018 18:11:53 GMT
Agent of Chaos Rey Kahuka Your discussion is a perfect example of how if you're already predisposed to like the Fox X-Men films your arguments, analysis and supporting evidence tends to support their faithfulness to the source material and, if you are not, vice versa. The idea that there is a universally accepted reason that the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix storylines were so popular is a little hard to swallow for me (because it is the product of 20/20 hindsight and contemporary review). It's easy to make broad, sweeping generalizations but, if you read some of the fan mail from the era that was submitted in-the-moment, people enjoyed those stories for many different reasons. This is just a teaser trailer, for all we know some of the shots we see in it may not be in the film at all. Aren't they in the middle of reshoots at this very moment? Can we really say with 100% confidence, that casual audiences who don't spend their days drafting timelines and contributing to fans sites are going to understand this film as anything other than a remake of the Last Stand or some kind of elaborate do-over? I honesty think this is going to be as faithful as Infinity War was to Infinity Gauntlet. An overall original storyline with some plot points and scenes inspired by the comic version. My point is there are definitely comic inspired scenes in the trailer like funeral. That's a fair assessment but, at the end of the day, I don't think the success of this film will hinge solely on how faithful it is to the source. I prefer it when comic book movies follow the comics as closely as is possible but, that can be a crutch for purists to lean on when evaluating the quality of a CBM. "It's not a frame by frame recreation so, it's invalid!" That's a silly attitude and I admit falling prey to it myself. When you strip away all of the source material posturing and pseudo-feminist interpretations of the story, the Dark Phoenix saga is the story of a tragic figure. It is the story of a person whose fate is radically altered and receives undeserved misfortunes. Jean Grey evokes pity and fear in the reader just as much as awe. She is not all good and all virtuous, she is flawed and makes horrifying mistakes and, in the end, she pays the highest penalty. Male or female, you don't often get this level of tragedy in mainstream comics.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 2, 2018 20:00:26 GMT
I honesty think this is going to be as faithful as Infinity War was to Infinity Gauntlet. An overall original storyline with some plot points and scenes inspired by the comic version. My point is there are definitely comic inspired scenes in the trailer like funeral. That's a fair assessment but, at the end of the day, I don't think the success of this film will hinge solely on how faithful it is to the source. I prefer it when comic book movies follow the comics as closely as is possible but, that can be a crutch for purists to lean on when evaluating the quality of a CBM. "It's not a frame by frame recreation so, it's invalid!" That's a silly attitude and I admit falling prey to it myself. When you strip away all of the source material posturing and pseudo-feminist interpretations of the story, the Dark Phoenix saga is the story of a tragic figure. It is the story of a person whose fate is radically altered and receives undeserved misfortunes. Jean Grey evokes pity and fear in the reader just as much as awe. She is not all good and all virtuous, she is flawed and makes horrifying mistakes and, in the end, she pays the highest penalty. Male or female, you don't often get this level of tragedy in mainstream comics. Agreed 100%, which is why those screen shots he presented were a silly argument. I don't need or want a frame by frame recreation of any given scene, I want the essence of the story translated in a meaningful way. I'm just not seeing anything in this trailer that depicts the epic scale of the story, the intense emotional journey for the central character (the whole thing is very Charles/Erik heavy, isn't it?) and any of the more fantastical cosmic elements of the story. The teaser makes the film look incredibly bland and too familiar. It's unfortunate considering the quality of the source material, but that's always been the story with the Fox X-Men, hasn't it?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 2, 2018 20:11:58 GMT
Maybe you'll convince me if you post a few more screen shots of character close ups. Without any kind of dynamic between Scott and Jean, or Jean and the entire team, there's no emotional stakes to the story. You feel it when she starts to lose it in the comics. You feel the anguish of Professor X when he starts to realize there's nothing he can do to stop it when the X-Men are getting their asses handed to them by the Shi'ar. Her madness, ascension to near godhood and eventual self-sacrifice only mean anything if you've been on an emotional journey with the characters. Instead of showing us any of that, this trailer somehow becomes yet another clash of philosophies between Eric and Charles. This team hasn't been together long enough for this story to matter the way it should, period. They know it too, that's why they use the Magneto/Xavier dynamic as filler. "The audience is familiar with them, at least." First off, why would you put her death in a teaser trailer? Spoiler, much? I hope you don’t get a job editing movie trailers. Secondly, Jean’s dynamic with Scott was that she was simply a hollow love interest and the dynamic Jean had with the team is that she was the token girl and weakest X-man before she became Phoenix. What made the Phoenix storyline so famous is that Jean becomes the complete opposite of who she was. She goes from the weakest X-Man to the strongest and later this boring good girl becomes a chaos bringer. Which of course wouldn’t be effective at all nowadays since everyone knows that Jean is powerful and is capable of evil thanks to the original trilogy. This film is going down a different angle. Seemly, the emotional stake of the movie is that Xavier is trying to keep the promise he made to Wolverine in DOFP to save Jean from the fate she had in the original timeline. It’s not a reharsh but a countination of a storyline that happened in the original trilogy. Xavier’s second chance with Jean. It’s not a reharsh but a continuation of Jean and Xavier’s storyline from the original trilogy. I’m not sure what philosophy clash you saw in the trailer. The only exchange they have is Xavier apologizing to Magneto who does not accept his apology. That’s not a clash of philosophies at all, dude. Trailer empathizes that this is Xavier’s fault, which was actually the case in the comic version. Changing arguments? Speak for yourself. We're not talking about cartoons. Read the comics and get back to me, junior. Then I actually showed there were also in the comic version. Which you replied: You must work for the studio. "Hey, here are some individual screen shots that prove the movie is identical to the story in the comics." You focus on the aesthetics instead of the meat of the story. The best material from the original storyline is nowhere to be seen in the trailer, and you've done nothing to refute that. By all means keep doubling down on this one scene, though. I particularly enjoy the screen shots of a lone character's face from the cartoon and then the movie. Yes, they really nailed it. To sum it up: “Damn! He actually showed one of the best parts of the original story was translated in the trailer after I was being so condescending! My ego can’t allow this! I’ll just say the trailer didn’t show the meat of the story!” Stop trying to save face. Concession accepted. I didn't say they should put her death in the trailer, genius. Here's what I said: The journey hasn't been shown at all, so the moments if they happen at all won't feel earned. You're either feigning ignorance or you truly are this dense, and in either case you aren't worth talking to. Admission of your stupidity accepted.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 2, 2018 20:39:07 GMT
“Admission of your stupidity accepted.”
There goes that ego, again. 🙄
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 2, 2018 20:44:50 GMT
Agent of Chaos Rey KahukaLet's try to pull it back gentleman... We all have the same desire. We want to see a good X-Men film. I don't think there is enough evidence from Fox one way or the other to decide how Dark Phoenix will turn out.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 2, 2018 20:51:06 GMT
Very well.
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 2, 2018 21:05:56 GMT
Agent of Chaos Rey Kahuka Your discussion is a perfect example of how if you're already predisposed to like the Fox X-Men films your arguments, analysis and supporting evidence tends to support their faithfulness to the source material and, if you are not, vice versa. The idea that there is a universally accepted reason that the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix storylines were so popular is a little hard to swallow for me (because it is the product of 20/20 hindsight and contemporary review). It's easy to make broad, sweeping generalizations but, if you read some of the fan mail from the era that was submitted in-the-moment, people enjoyed those stories for many different reasons. This is just a teaser trailer, for all we know some of the shots we see in it may not be in the film at all. Aren't they in the middle of reshoots at this very moment? Can we really say with 100% confidence, that casual audiences who don't spend their days drafting timelines and contributing to fans sites are going to understand this film as anything other than a remake of the Last Stand or some kind of elaborate do-over? I honesty think this is going to be as faithful as Infinity War was to Infinity Gauntlet. An overall original storyline with some plot points and scenes inspired by the comic version. My point is there are definitely comic inspired scenes in the trailer like funeral. The question, though, is why should we care about her going through that? It's like the MCU making Infinity War (as is) the 1st Avengers movie. Skip 6 years from were the original Avengers is and act like all that story happened without us being there for it.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 2, 2018 21:17:38 GMT
I honesty think this is going to be as faithful as Infinity War was to Infinity Gauntlet. An overall original storyline with some plot points and scenes inspired by the comic version. My point is there are definitely comic inspired scenes in the trailer like funeral. The question, though, is why should we care about her going through that? It's like the MCU making Infinity War (as is) the 1st Avengers movie. Skip 6 years from were the original Avengers is and act like all that story happened without us being there for it. According to interviews these movies are suppose to be interquels and not true reboots. So it seems the point of this movie is to show the audience what Xavier did to get the ending we got in DOFP where Jean is alive.
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 2, 2018 21:25:58 GMT
The question, though, is why should we care about her going through that? It's like the MCU making Infinity War (as is) the 1st Avengers movie. Skip 6 years from were the original Avengers is and act like all that story happened without us being there for it. According to interviews these movies are suppose to be interquels and not true reboots. So it seems the point of this movie is to show the audience what Xavier did to get the ending we got in DOFP where Jean is alive. Again. Why. Should. We. Care?
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Oct 2, 2018 21:55:05 GMT
According to interviews these movies are suppose to be interquels and not true reboots. So it seems the point of this movie is to show the audience what Xavier did to get the ending we got in DOFP where Jean is alive. Again. Why. Should. We. Care? Seriously? That’s like asking why should we care about what Laura was going through in Logan because she wasn’t in any of the previous films. When the main character of Léon: The Professional died at the end of the film the audiences cared and that was his only appearance ever. A single film can create investment in a character and kill them off in the very movie they were introduced and provoke sympathy in the audience, films have been doing that for decades. Hell, look at Scarlet Witch and Vision’s relationship in Infinity War. Her losing him was sad despite the fact that they were only a couple for that one movie and they only teased at it in Civil War.
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