|
Post by hobowar on Nov 19, 2018 0:14:05 GMT
i know people have already decided Captain Marvel is a Mary Sue without knowing if she has any flaws or not, but what about these two?
|
|
|
Post by Power Ranger on Nov 19, 2018 0:23:14 GMT
Vision maimed an ally because he was distracted by his love for a genocidal ‘asylum seeker’ (economic migrant).
He’s no Mary Sue, just over-powered.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 19, 2018 0:33:07 GMT
No, they are not. I also don't recall anyone saying Capt. Marvel is a Mary Sue, simply saying that they fear she might be a Mary Sue.
People really need to stop using that phrase unless they actually understand what it means.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 19, 2018 0:34:43 GMT
Vision maimed an ally because he was distracted by his love for a genocidal ‘asylum seeker’ (economic migrant). He’s no Mary Sue, just over-powered. See, I understand that you don't like the MCU. What I don't understand is why you need to keep lying about it. When has Wanda ever been genocidal?
|
|
|
Post by ThatGuy on Nov 19, 2018 0:44:29 GMT
No, they are not. I also don't recall anyone saying Capt. Marvel is a Mary Sue, simply saying that they fear she might be a Mary Sue. People really need to stop using that phrase unless they actually understand what it means. A Mary Sue is any female lead character put into an action/adventure movie or tv show after 2010.
|
|
|
Post by Power Ranger on Nov 19, 2018 0:45:04 GMT
Vision maimed an ally because he was distracted by his love for a genocidal ‘asylum seeker’ (economic migrant). He’s no Mary Sue, just over-powered. See, I understand that you don't like the MCU. What I don't understand is why you need to keep lying about it. When has Wanda ever been genocidal? When she made Hulk destroy Johannesburg.
|
|
|
Post by ThatGuy on Nov 19, 2018 0:54:57 GMT
See, I understand that you don't like the MCU. What I don't understand is why you need to keep lying about it. When has Wanda ever been genocidal? When she made Hulk destroy Johannesburg. When did she make him do that? Weren't they far away from the city and he made his way there?
|
|
|
Post by scabab on Nov 19, 2018 0:55:33 GMT
Captain America wouldn't be. He's been beaten up by Loki, Ultron, Quicksilver, Thanos, Winter Soldier etc. He's very vulnerable physically.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 19, 2018 1:00:42 GMT
See, I understand that you don't like the MCU. What I don't understand is why you need to keep lying about it. When has Wanda ever been genocidal? When she made Hulk destroy Johannesburg. First, she didn't "make" Hulk do anything. She messed with his mind but full mind control is not part of her powerset. And even if she did, how is that genocide? Do you even know what genocide is?
|
|
|
Post by hobowar on Nov 19, 2018 1:01:36 GMT
Captain America wouldn't be. He's been beaten up by Loki, Ultron, Quicksilver, Thanos, Winter Soldier etc. He's very vulnerable physically. That's true, but could he be considered Mary Sue-like based on his personality?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 1:03:29 GMT
Not by anyone with a reputation they enjoy and wish to keep. It seems conceding that there are male Mary Sues is just that, a concession that it has to apply to male characters and not just female characters whose behaviors and strengths defy male expectations of female characters. With the exception of Bella from Twilight, I noticed most female characters criticized for being Mary Sues aren't hung up over a man, or have no romance complications as par of their arc. Maybe that's not relatable if your expectation is for women to fret on the sidelines or show their hand by falling to pieces over a man, especially an aloof one.
I've heard Captain Kirk is considered a male Mary Sue and I don't even buy that. Wesley Crusher from Star Trek TNG as well, with the fact that Wesley is also Gene Roddenberry's middle name being used to show the wish fulfillment/author insertion component of what's supposed to make a Mary Sue a Mary Sue.
I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it does seem like the Mary Sue characters always wind up being the ones I personally envy. The smart ones, the ones that figure everything out. No explanation for how competent or smart they are is just lacking imagination to me at best, prejudice at worst if a female character's next level incompetent is too suspicious. When Rey from Star Wars comes up, I really don't mind conceding she could be Mary Sue like in some ways, but to me everything she does and knows is explained by the fact that she lives alone in the desert, cannibalizes ships for food, and is no less entitled to whatever intelligence she has than Billy from the original power rangers, or Donatello from the teenage mutant ninja turtles. I.e. the smart ones in the group. No one said you can't be precocious or a fast learner. How she's a pilot is anybody's guess, but I had to be wrestled into wondering that. It didn't leap out at me that she has no business knowing how to fly, but we kind of joined her life as a young 20 something so who knows what she really knows.
Black Widow comes to mind because it seems there's little she can't do, like hacking into top secret information on a boat in Winter Soldier, but I spend less time thinking about how implausible it is for her to figure that out and more time thinking I wish I could do that. I thought they tried to humanize her in Avengers Age of Ultron by having her attracted to Bruce and I thought that was clumsy and didn't work for me.
So, Captain America no. He's dumb. Well, not dumb, but not relentlessly genius. He was barely a kid from Brooklyn before going under the ice. His lack of understanding is understandable to me, and Vision is explained away by essentially being an invulnerably built android with Jarvis' personality and an infinity stone for a forehead jewel. I wonder about Luke Skywalker sometimes, especially in Return of the Jedi where he returns as a fully realized Jedi who struts effortlessly into Jaba's palace like there's nothing he can't do. Ultimately, I still think the concept is mental masturbation.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 19, 2018 1:03:40 GMT
Captain America wouldn't be. He's been beaten up by Loki, Ultron, Quicksilver, Thanos, Winter Soldier etc. He's very vulnerable physically. That's true, but could he be considered Mary Sue-like based on his personality? Still no. Personality is not enough to become a Mary Sue.
|
|
|
Post by Groovy Rachel on Nov 19, 2018 1:04:30 GMT
Captain America wouldn't be. He's been beaten up by Loki, Ultron, Quicksilver, Thanos, Winter Soldier etc. He's very vulnerable physically. That's true, but could he be considered Mary Sue-like based on his personality? Wouldn't him being pretty bad with woman count against that?
|
|
|
Post by hobowar on Nov 19, 2018 1:05:14 GMT
No, they are not. I also don't recall anyone saying Capt. Marvel is a Mary Sue, simply saying that they fear she might be a Mary Sue. People really need to stop using that phrase unless they actually understand what it means. Honestly, I'm not really sure what it means. I remember at one point thinking it meant female characters we're not too fond of.
|
|
|
Post by Power Ranger on Nov 19, 2018 1:06:39 GMT
When she made Hulk destroy Johannesburg. First, she didn't "make" Hulk do anything. She messed with his mind but full mind control is not part of her powerset. And even if she did, how is that genocide? Do you even know what genocide is?
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 19, 2018 1:08:47 GMT
No, they are not. I also don't recall anyone saying Capt. Marvel is a Mary Sue, simply saying that they fear she might be a Mary Sue. People really need to stop using that phrase unless they actually understand what it means. Honestly, I'm not really sure what it means. I remember at one point thinking it meant female characters we're not too fond of. Nonsense. There are male mary sues out there, normally called Gary Stu's. The reason you don't see much mention of them is because society has already gotten tired of them long ago so they stopped making them. Adam West Batman is a good example. Unfortunately, the mary sue phenomena is only starting to come out, probably because we're only now getting more female-led movies. Still, that doesn't mean that mary sueness is simply a case of hating female characters.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 19, 2018 1:10:00 GMT
First, she didn't "make" Hulk do anything. She messed with his mind but full mind control is not part of her powerset. And even if she did, how is that genocide? Do you even know what genocide is? Yes, I know you're capable of googling stuff, unfortunately it just proves that you don't know what genocide means. My question still stands: why are you lying about Wanda being genocidal?
|
|
|
Post by hobowar on Nov 19, 2018 1:12:51 GMT
Honestly, I'm not really sure what it means. I remember at one point thinking it meant female characters we're not too fond of. Nonsense. There are male mary sues out there, normally called Gary Stu's. The reason you don't see much mention of them is because society has already gotten tired of them long ago so they stopped making them. Adam West Batman is a good example. Unfortunately, the mary sue phenomena is only starting to come out, probably because we're only now getting more female-led movies. Still, that doesn't mean that mary sueness is simply a case of hating female characters. Would you say any Marvel characters are Mary Sues or come close to being a Mary Sue?
|
|
|
Post by Power Ranger on Nov 19, 2018 1:16:13 GMT
Yes, I know you're capable of googling stuff, unfortunately it just proves that you don't know what genocide means. My question still stands: why are you lying about Wanda being genocidal? Ross likened Hulk and Thor to thirty megaton nukes. Releasing one onto a city would potentially kill most people in the city.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 19, 2018 1:17:35 GMT
Nonsense. There are male mary sues out there, normally called Gary Stu's. The reason you don't see much mention of them is because society has already gotten tired of them long ago so they stopped making them. Adam West Batman is a good example. Unfortunately, the mary sue phenomena is only starting to come out, probably because we're only now getting more female-led movies. Still, that doesn't mean that mary sueness is simply a case of hating female characters. Would you say any Marvel characters are Mary Sues or come close to being a Mary Sue? Nope, none of them fit the bill. Neither does any DCEU character or Fox-men character. Edit: actually now that I think about it, Jlaw's Mystique does come close to Mary Sueness... Though never goes full Mary Sue.
|
|