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Post by Archelaus on Nov 26, 2018 21:59:17 GMT
At this point, I don't know anymore. More like whatever leaning towards a yes. Like everyone else noted, it would have been cohesive and had some style and personality than the bland studio version we ultimately got, but that doesn't mean it would have been a better movie. I'm more worried how it would have led into Zack Snyder's Justice League 2, which would have concluded his five story arc that started with Man of Steel, but it sounds like it would have been a disaster. Supposedly, Lois Lane died, which causes Superman to turn to his dark side and somehow become manipulated by Darkseid. Batman would have sacrificed himself against Darkseid, and supposedly the trinity of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman would have died (which was foreshadowed with the three crosses at the end of the fight against Doomsday). In the end, these sound like cool ideas, but knowing Zack Snyder, he would have presented it the wrong way. That was an alternate future if Batman had not brought Lois to bring Superman back to his right mind after being resurrected. I don't think that was going to change. Superman would have stayed good because Batman did the right thing. Now, Batman feeling guilty for what he had done to Superman and as a result giving up his life to save the world probably would have happened (to the dismay of most fans). That probably would have killed the movie right there. Yeah, that was the alternate timeline (the "Knightmare" sequence), but I've read some theories that it would have came to past in Justice League 2.
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Post by dnno1 on Nov 26, 2018 22:08:38 GMT
That was an alternate future if Batman had not brought Lois to bring Superman back to his right mind after being resurrected. I don't think that was going to change. Superman would have stayed good because Batman did the right thing. Now, Batman feeling guilty for what he had done to Superman and as a result giving up his life to save the world probably would have happened (to the dismay of most fans). That probably would have killed the movie right there. Yeah, that was the alternate timeline (the "Knightmare" sequence), but I've read some theories that it would have came to past in Justice League 2. No, that is not consistent with the messianic story Snyder was trying to tell. This was supposed to be a story about the birth, death, and resurrection (rise, fall, and redemption) of a Christ Like figure. That means that he was going to rise again and be redeemed. The nightmare scenario would have happened if Batman had not used Lois as the key. If he did not, Superman would have destroyed the Justice League before it could have stopped Steppenwolf, Darkseid would have seduced Superman. Lois may or may not have died, but she was referenced in the nightmare to clue in Batman to use her to bring Superman back to his senses.
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 26, 2018 23:19:10 GMT
I said real smiles and humor. Real. That is the smile of a person that just fought in the middle of a city and did more destruction than an entire human army fighting another human army. That is the smile of a person that loves the smell of wet cement. lol I mean they went into space. He could have taken him out of the city and not destroy the half that Zod didn't destroy. Nope he brought them back into buildings that were still standing. To quote the great hero Wonder Woman: "Why did you bring him back into the city?" Zod was the one who brought the fight back into the city. That's Superman controlling the decent, right?
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Post by thisguy4000 on Nov 26, 2018 23:34:54 GMT
Zod was the one who brought the fight back into the city. That's Superman controlling the decent, right?
Zod was the one who launched them back into the Earth’s atmosphere.
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 26, 2018 23:51:14 GMT
That's Superman controlling the decent, right?
Zod was the one who launched them back into the Earth’s atmosphere. And he lost control of the decent which Superman gained. Also, they went straight up and back down to the same place... Destroying places is in the Snyder-verse Kryptonian genetic make-up.
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Post by leesilm on Nov 27, 2018 2:48:03 GMT
I say this as someone who enjoyed JUSTICE LEAGUE (I am NOT saying it was perfect), I would have loved a Snyder cut. Also, could we just have like a novelization of Snyder's LEAGUE? That would be a cool compromise, right?
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Nov 27, 2018 4:07:41 GMT
Yes absolutely. Regardless of how I feel about his DC films, I would’ve preferred to see his cohesive trilogy. MOS and BVS feel like one big movie and JL would’ve made it feel like an epic but it ends up being like a Frankenstein’s monster, put together with all these different parts from different people.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Nov 27, 2018 5:10:08 GMT
Absolutely yes. They hacked it up and dumbed it down. Whedons silly jokes and cheap cinematography are nearly a deal breaker, artistically speaking. Doesn't seem like Snyder's cut would have had any shortage of silly jokes going off of the original trailer...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 5:23:23 GMT
Looks like the changes were to keep Darkseid from being the next thing for the League. So it looks to me like Justice League 2 will be vs. the Legion of Doom. I'm probably late to that realization compared to most here, as I just finally saw JL.
Probably a better idea to have something different than yet another tyrant intent on subjugating the Galaxy anyway. JMHO.
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Post by Archelaus on Nov 27, 2018 16:25:49 GMT
Yeah, that was the alternate timeline (the "Knightmare" sequence), but I've read some theories that it would have came to past in Justice League 2. No, that is not consistent with the messianic story Snyder was trying to tell. This was supposed to be a story about the birth, death, and resurrection (rise, fall, and redemption) of a Christ Like figure. That means that he was going to rise again and be redeemed. The nightmare scenario would have happened if Batman had not used Lois as the key. If he did not, Superman would have destroyed the Justice League before it could have stopped Steppenwolf, Darkseid would have seduced Superman. Lois may or may not have died, but she was referenced in the nightmare to clue in Batman to use her to bring Superman back to his senses. After doing a little more research, I suppose you're right. I think I got some of the details mixed up.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Nov 27, 2018 16:35:04 GMT
What cuts of MoS and BvS did you see? They all are cartoonish clobber orgies. Just because nobody shows real smiles or humor doesn't make it a drama. only question would be what cuts did you see, especially as one ends on a big smile as final shot.
Someone has found his identity and life purpose. It's called a character arc: Clark in MoS went through one. Same with Batman and Superman in BvS.
Do you wish me to spell them all out for you, or do you want to watch the films unspoiled?
Batman and Superman realizing their mothers have the same name is not a character arc or realizing their identity or life purpose.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Nov 27, 2018 16:54:08 GMT
only question would be what cuts did you see, especially as one ends on a big smile as final shot.
Someone has found his identity and life purpose. It's called a character arc: Clark in MoS went through one. Same with Batman and Superman in BvS.
Do you wish me to spell them all out for you, or do you want to watch the films unspoiled?
Batman and Superman realizing their mothers have the same name is not a character arc or realizing their identity or life purpose.
indeed, but you not realizing what an character arc is reaveals a lot about your identity and life purpose.
Do you need it spelled out further?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 16:54:21 GMT
only question would be what cuts did you see, especially as one ends on a big smile as final shot.
Someone has found his identity and life purpose. It's called a character arc: Clark in MoS went through one. Same with Batman and Superman in BvS.
Do you wish me to spell them all out for you, or do you want to watch the films unspoiled?
Batman and Superman realizing their mothers have the same name is not a character arc or realizing their identity or life purpose. Well Batman's arc was clouded by the storyteller trying to play some poetic trick that fell on its face. It would have been so much more clear and had so much more power if Supes had simply said "please, just save my mom" Then Batsy would have snapped to and said "You have a mom?", and looked down and muttered to himself "The alien has a mom..." He still could have done the montage of scenes with the grave, broken beads, etc. And the message would have been more clear that he realized the Supes was more human than what his clouded Batbrain was making him out to be. That was the whole point of "Martha", wasn't it?
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 27, 2018 16:56:34 GMT
Batman and Superman realizing their mothers have the same name is not a character arc or realizing their identity or life purpose. Well Batman’s arc was clouded by the storyteller trying to play some poetic trick that fell on its face. It would have been so much more clear and had so much more power if Supes had simply said “please, just save my mom” Then Batsy would have snapped to and said “You have a mom?”, and looked down and muttered to himself “The alien has a mom…” He still could have done the montage of scenes with the grave, broken beads, etc. And the message would have been more clear that he realized the Supes was more human than what his clouded Batbrain was making him out to be. That was the whole point of “Martha”, wasn’t it? I didn’t really mind “Martha,” but your way is smoother and better. And, yes, that’s the basic point of it from what I could tell: Bats realizes Supes’s genuine humanity, a Superman theme at least going back to the Reeve (where he’s torn between the two fathers).
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Post by Larcen26 on Nov 27, 2018 16:59:41 GMT
This isn’t a thread about releasing the so called Snyder cut of the movie. This is simply a question of whether or not you guys would’ve preferred it if they stuck with what Zack Snyder filmed for the movie, and if WB didn’t impose that two hour mandate or those extensive Joss Whedon reshoots. For or anyone who might be in the dark about what Snyder’s original version would’ve been like, here’s an article that lists the changes that we know about. But Snyder is a bad filmmaker. Why would anyone want more of him? But I am split on this... Because the #1 problem with the film, in my opinion, is the 2 hour mandate. If that weren't there, it would have been fixed by Whedon's reshoots.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Nov 27, 2018 17:10:09 GMT
Batman and Superman realizing their mothers have the same name is not a character arc or realizing their identity or life purpose. Well Batman's arc was clouded by the storyteller trying to play some poetic trick that fell on its face. It would have been so much more clear and had so much more power if Supes had simply said "please, just save my mom" Then Batsy would have snapped to and said "You have a mom?", and looked down and muttered to himself "The alien has a mom..." He still could have done the montage of scenes with the grave, broken beads, etc. And the message would have been more clear that he realized the Supes was more human than what his clouded Batbrain was making him out to be. That was the whole point of "Martha", wasn't it? That's exactly how it should have gone down. That was the entire point of the Martha sequence, but the problem is the execution, especially considering they've written themselves into a corner anyways with the fight. Then again, the fight shouldn't have even happened. Superman had so many opportunities to tell Batman what's really going on. But also, while I can buy Batman's paranoia of Superman in the beginning, I don't buy he would be fooled that easily by Lex Luthor (at least this version of Lex we have) into believing Superman is the enemy.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Nov 27, 2018 17:13:20 GMT
Batman and Superman realizing their mothers have the same name is not a character arc or realizing their identity or life purpose.
indeed, but you not realizing what an character arc is reaveals a lot about your identity and life purpose.
Do you need it spelled out further?
And you giving Snyder and George Lucas way too much credit on artistic merits and storytelling reveals a lot about your own identity, don't it!?! Do you need it spelled out further?
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Nov 27, 2018 17:20:19 GMT
indeed, but you not realizing what an character arc is reaveals a lot about your identity and life purpose.
Do you need it spelled out further?
And you giving Snyder and George Lucas way too much credit on artistic merits and storytelling reveals a lot about your own identity, don't it!?! Do you need it spelled out further? don't shift goalposts and deflect; it won't help you. Indeed I would be happy if you could spell it out - explain the following:
1. Define what was Bat's character arc in BvS (we can discuss Supes's later) 2. What is the Martha scene: an arc or what is that trope called in writing theory? 3. What is the meaning/message of the Martha scene?
If you answer these questions correctly (intelligence age of 12 will suffice) you will fully realize the intellectual failure of your previous statements.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Nov 27, 2018 18:15:26 GMT
And you giving Snyder and George Lucas way too much credit on artistic merits and storytelling reveals a lot about your own identity, don't it!?! Do you need it spelled out further? don't shift goalposts and deflect; it won't help you. Indeed I would be happy if you could spell it out - explain the following:
1. Define what was Bat's character arc in BvS (we can discuss Supes's later) 2. What is the Martha scene: an arc or what is that trope called in writing theory? 3. What is the meaning/message of the Martha scene?
If you answer these questions correctly (intelligence age of 12 will suffice) you will fully realize the intellectual failure of your previous statements.
Maybe I should reiterate. I'm not saying Batman doesn't have an arc. He clearly does. Being paranoid about Superman's presence and intentions because of all the power he has, and his own failure and feeling of being powerless while watching his parents die, but then watching Zod destroy his other family (Wayne Enterprise) in the beginning, then being trolled hard by Lex Luthor (we'll get to that later) into believing Superman is the enemy, and then realizing Superman is more human than he is because he actually has a human mother, hence, the Martha sequence. It's the penultimate moment in his arc because it's also the heel-face turn moment for Batman. Batman clearly has an arc. BUT... as I've told you before, having an idea doesn't mean it's a good one, and the Martha moment is not a good idea. It could (should have) been executed better with Superman telling Batman to save his 'mom'/'mother' instead of saying Martha, but because Snyder has no grasp for subtlety and has to spell it out for the audience, we got Martha instead. But regardless of how it played out, it should never have gotten to that point in the story in the first place. The fight alone shouldn't have happened and there were dozens of opportunities for Superman to clearly subdue Batman and tell him what's really going on, but because Snyder is ashamed of superhero films (particularly Superman) he wanted to be edgy and cool and drew out the fight longer than it should have gone, and in the end, wrote themselves into a corner with the Martha sequence. The most glaring instance of this is when Superman recovers from the first Kryptonite grenade after Batman was punching him repeatedly, and instead of just telling Batman what's going on, he hurls him through the building. And to top it off, just to create dramatic tension and put Superman back in danger, Superman has to slowly crouch and slowly clench his fists while he conveniently waits for Batman to reload his grenade launcher. In the end, the whole thing just becomes a big contrivance.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Nov 27, 2018 20:42:17 GMT
don't shift goalposts and deflect; it won't help you. Indeed I would be happy if you could spell it out - explain the following:
1. Define what was Bat's character arc in BvS (we can discuss Supes's later) 2. What is the Martha scene: an arc or what is that trope called in writing theory? 3. What is the meaning/message of the Martha scene?
If you answer these questions correctly (intelligence age of 12 will suffice) you will fully realize the intellectual failure of your previous statements.
Maybe I should reiterate. I'm not saying Batman doesn't have an arc. He clearly does. Being paranoid about Superman's presence and intentions because of all the power he has, and his own failure and feeling of being powerless while watching his parents die, but then watching Zod destroy his other family (Wayne Enterprise) in the beginning, then being trolled hard by Lex Luthor (we'll get to that later) into believing Superman is the enemy, and then realizing Superman is more human than he is because he actually has a human mother, hence, the Martha sequence. It's the penultimate moment in his arc because it's also the heel-face turn moment for Batman. Batman clearly has an arc. BUT... as I've told you before, having an idea doesn't mean it's a good one, and the Martha moment is not a good idea. It could (should have) been executed better with Superman telling Batman to save his 'mom'/'mother' instead of saying Martha, but because Snyder has no grasp for subtlety and has to spell it out for the audience, we got Martha instead. But regardless of how it played out, it should never have gotten to that point in the story in the first place. The fight alone shouldn't have happened and there were dozens of opportunities for Superman to clearly subdue Batman and tell him what's really going on, but because Snyder is ashamed of superhero films (particularly Superman) he wanted to be edgy and cool and drew out the fight longer than it should have gone, and in the end, wrote themselves into a corner with the Martha sequence. The most glaring instance of this is when Superman recovers from the first Kryptonite grenade after Batman was punching him repeatedly, and instead of just telling Batman what's going on, he hurls him through the building. And to top it off, just to create dramatic tension and put Superman back in danger, Superman has to slowly crouch and slowly clench his fists while he conveniently waits for Batman to reload his grenade launcher. In the end, the whole thing just becomes a big contrivance. so you you backpaddle. Fine. and repeated platitudes cannot replace valid arguments. So, what's the idea with Martha? ok, there is actually some thought there. Martha is about Bruce rediscovering HIS humanity again (not so much Supes' as many claim). Bruce realizes that despite their different methods he and Supes fight for the same thing: Saving the ones they love, or "Save Martha". Bruce failed to save his mother as a child (as showin in Act 1), now he can help saving SM's mother ("Martha won't die tonight"). This is the trigger event for his arc from brutal, inhuman vigilante-loner into someone who spares his victims and realizes his mistakes and forms a league (to compensate for SM). The character arc does not end with the Martha scene, it begin there and is pushed further by SM's death in the end, seeing Bruce taking full responsibility. lol, "Mom" would be a lot more cringe worthy and juvenile a la MCU's " I don't care, he killed my mom!" or " You should not have killed my mom, or squished my Walkman!". Btw there you have the difference between using mommy issues just as a pretext to do some clobber porn, or having mommy issues to represent ideas and to resolve differences. Having an idea doesn't mean it's a good one? Maybe. But having no ideas at all, never is a good one.
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