|
Post by scabab on Jan 8, 2019 18:54:01 GMT
It would have been an other wise decent twist had it not been wasted on Iron Man's signature villain.
The Mandarin was Iron Man's main villain and not just another boring intellectual in a a Iron Man suit. It was a tremendous waste.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 19:00:05 GMT
I wouldn't have hated it as much if they didn't delibrately build their trailers around Kingsley's Mandarin. I really wanted to see that villain and he wasn't in the movie.
Seriously, those trailers have at least half a dozen fake lines from Ben's Mandarin. That really annoyed me.
|
|
|
Post by No Morpho, Only Bánh mì on Jan 8, 2019 19:06:45 GMT
I wouldn't have hated it as much if they didn't delibrately build their trailers around Kingsley's Mandarin. I really wanted to see that villain and he wasn't in the movie. Seriously, those trailers have at least half a dozen fake lines from Ben's Mandarin. That really annoyed me. I know. He was so rad. That’s the beauty of the illusion, though! It’s built into the marketing. And classic MCU- They trail fake shots and altered scenes all the time. Not sure if that started before IM3, But it’s def the norm now...
|
|
|
Post by hobowar on Jan 8, 2019 19:23:50 GMT
It was probably the best scene in a comic book movie and it really fit perfectly with the theme of media manipulation. Between Ultron, Zemo, Killmonger and Killian, I honestly don't think anyone does villains better than Marvel.
|
|
|
Post by No Morpho, Only Bánh mì on Jan 8, 2019 19:55:06 GMT
It was probably the best scene in a comic book movie and it really fit perfectly with the theme of media manipulation. Between Ultron, Zemo, Killmonger and Killian, I honestly don't think anyone does villains better than Marvel. But let’s be realistic, it’s not better than any moment in Black Panther.
|
|
|
Post by hobowar on Jan 8, 2019 20:43:24 GMT
It was probably the best scene in a comic book movie and it really fit perfectly with the theme of media manipulation. Between Ultron, Zemo, Killmonger and Killian, I honestly don't think anyone does villains better than Marvel. But let’s be realistic, it’s not better than any moment in Black Panther. Well yeah, but you are talking about THE GREATEST MOVIE EVER MADE!
|
|
|
Post by President Ackbar™ on Jan 8, 2019 20:48:26 GMT
But let’s be realistic, it’s not better than any moment in Black Panther. Well yeah, but you are talking about THE GREATEST MOVIE EVER MADE!
|
|
agentblue
Sophomore
@agentblue
Posts: 792
Likes: 248
|
Post by agentblue on Jan 8, 2019 21:03:00 GMT
I was very angry about it back then and I still dont like it to this day. I do like Iron Man 3 somewhat but I think it could have been better without that idiotic twist. Thats just what I think anyways.
|
|
|
Post by taylorfirst1 on Jan 8, 2019 21:29:14 GMT
Yes, I know that's the line of thinking but we also have mystical white guys, black guys and every other kind of person. It's not just Western culture but every culture. Are you telling me that ancient Chinese folklore doesn't have any mystical characters? Heck I've seen a lot of Chinese-made fantasy movies that have them.
The entire fantasy genre is based on mystical characters.
Movies are predominantly produced, controlled and feature white people, that's the difference. A minority is begging for more representation and all they give you is a generic stereotype role, how are you going to feel? Asian cinema can do whatever it wants with its characters just like white people can do whatever they want with white people for the same reason. It's the reason M'Baku works in BP and would not work in a film overwhelmingly featuring white people with a white production crew. Frankly, it's the same reason black rappers can use the N word and white ones can't. Political correctness can spiral out of control, I won't argue that. But in most cases I understand why these decisions are made. There are so many social factors in play when you're trying to give opportunities to underrepresented people and be respectful of cultural differences at the same time. Sometimes you roll your eyes at this stuff (personally, I can't wait until it's no longer necessary for the BP director to be black, or the Wonder Woman director to be a woman, etc.), but I'd rather roll my eyes now than continue to look back and cringe as we continue the inequality that's been on display in popular culture for... well, for as long as storytelling in any form has been in existence. I would agree with all of that if the Mandarin were the only Asian character in entertainment but he isn't. There are countless positive Asian characters in movies and TV going back decades and in the MCU. I'm sure you could list them as well as I could. How many do we have to have before we can stop walking on egg shells? Is there a quota that will satisfy everyone?
The answer to that is of course no, because the TINY number of people that would complain about the Mandarin will never be satisfied.
So I don't agree with this; "Asian cinema can do whatever it wants with its characters just like white people can do whatever they want with white people for the same reason."
I think everyone can do whatever they like with any of their characters and the audience should be able to look at each one individually and IN CONTEXT to decide if they think it is appropriate or not.
The people that would complain about the Mandarin are the same people who say "Multiculturalism is the greatest thing ever" but whenever someone adopts something from another culture they yell "That's cultural appropriation, you can't do that!". Trying to make people like that happy is pointless and only serves to restrict and water down all forms of entertainment.
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Jan 8, 2019 21:39:32 GMT
A real asian Mandrinin with real 10 rings power would have been a much better movie than what we got.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Death Man on Jan 8, 2019 21:42:23 GMT
Did you see it coming?
No. I saw a test screening, and I had absolutely no clue that anything was amiss.
Did it upset you then?
No, I was delighted with the reveal. I thought it was entirely in line with Black's subversive humor.
Are you upset about it now?
No, why would I be? Even if I was angry at the time, it's been years since then.
Do you really dig it?
I do and, with time and increased butthurt from haters, it's only become all the more satisfying.
What about IM3 as a whole?
It's uneven and overstuffed. It doesn't line up with the spirit of early 21st-century Iron Man comic books (established primarily by Warren Ellis). Tony is dour and mission-oriented in the Extremis storyline. His goal is to turn himself into the ultimate weapon in the arms race between himself and black market bio-hackers (via the Extremis enhancement).
That said, for all of its shortcomings, the themes of PTSD manufactured terrorism and human biology as the final frontier of technological advancement are done well.
The Mandarin, IMO, was and is a cringy character that never amounted to much even in the hands of some of Marvel's most talented writers. He would have made for a boring, stereotypical villain if not for the twist. If you're in love with rings, there's always Liberace.
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Jan 8, 2019 21:51:21 GMT
He would have made for a boring, stereotypical villain if not for the twist. If you're in love with rings, there's always Liberace. His persona from the first trailer received positive vibes. Killian isnt remembered as a great or memorable villain, so any version close to trailer Mandarin would have been an upgrade.
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Jan 8, 2019 22:12:41 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Lord Death Man on Jan 8, 2019 22:13:10 GMT
He would have made for a boring, stereotypical villain if not for the twist. If you're in love with rings, there's always Liberace. His persona from the first trailer received positive vibes. Killian isnt remembered as a great or memorable villain, so any version close to trailer Mandarin would have been an upgrade. I don't share that opinion. Just because fanboys get spontaneous erections for gun-wielding villains who talk hard doesn't mean you're going to get another Heath Ledger every single time. But I get it, when the illusion broke and, you saw the hot girl you were infatuated with without her makeup on, it all went south from there. IM3, while not the most effective use of parody, does gives us a framework to re-examine the villain trope in modern comic book movies. In my opinion, if the twist seriously hurt your feelings as a fan, then I know they were on to something. The genre can't move forward without critical examination of itself. That's why Deadpool happens to be so effective and useful to the genre's longevity. In fact, if this same twist happened in a Deadpool movie, we'd be praising it as progressive and forward thinking but, because Marvel choose to do this with Iron Man and the Mandarin, that's too much like coloring outside of the lines for rigid fanboys whose self-esteem is tied to the genre playing out in stilted, dogmatic fashion. That, of course, isn't to say that they didn't undermine themselves to a certain degree with Killian's envious-nerd-turned-villain trope.
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Jan 8, 2019 23:28:26 GMT
I don't share that opinion. Just because fanboys get spontaneous erections for gun-wielding villains who talk hard doesn't mean you're going to get another Heath Ledger every single time. But I get it, when the illusion broke and, you saw the hot girl you were infatuated with without her makeup on, it all went south from there. IM3, while not the most effective use of parody, does gives us a framework to re-examine the villain trope in modern comic book movies. In my opinion, if the twist seriously hurt your feelings as a fan, then I know they were on to something. The genre can't move forward without critical examination of itself. That's why Deadpool happens to be so effective and useful to the genre's longevity. In fact, if this same twist happened in a Deadpool movie, we'd be praising it as progressive and forward thinking but, because Marvel choose to do this with Iron Man and the Mandarin, that's too much like coloring outside of the lines for rigid fanboys whose self-esteem is tied to the genre playing out in stilted, dogmatic fashion. That, of course, isn't to say that they didn't undermine themselves to a certain degree with Killian's envious nerd turned villain trope. In isolation the twist itself was good in subverting the typical evil forgein guy portrait. But it was the wrong film to do it in imo. The Mandarin had been the instigator of Tonys continual PTSD symptoms but that all disappeared after The Mandarin twist was revealed which was disappointing because Tonys personal anguish was being played out with decent conviction. Tonys whole paranoia was about being unable to control threats he cannot pinpoint or predict. The aura of The Mandarin in his "lesson videos" is exotic and alien in nature much like the Chitauri army from New York. But once he finds out Killian was the real villain, that mystical, foreign threat is destroyed along with the bulk of Tonys anxiety. The threat is now just another American that he is already familiar with and has known in his past playboy lifestyle who has turned on him with the nerd to evil scientist trope. Keeping the real Mandarin would have been better for Tonys character in overcoming his personal problems full circle.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Death Man on Jan 9, 2019 0:55:59 GMT
I don't share that opinion. Just because fanboys get spontaneous erections for gun-wielding villains who talk hard doesn't mean you're going to get another Heath Ledger every single time. But I get it, when the illusion broke and, you saw the hot girl you were infatuated with without her makeup on, it all went south from there. IM3, while not the most effective use of parody, does gives us a framework to re-examine the villain trope in modern comic book movies. In my opinion, if the twist seriously hurt your feelings as a fan, then I know they were on to something. The genre can't move forward without critical examination of itself. That's why Deadpool happens to be so effective and useful to the genre's longevity. In fact, if this same twist happened in a Deadpool movie, we'd be praising it as progressive and forward thinking but, because Marvel choose to do this with Iron Man and the Mandarin, that's too much like coloring outside of the lines for rigid fanboys whose self-esteem is tied to the genre playing out in stilted, dogmatic fashion. That, of course, isn't to say that they didn't undermine themselves to a certain degree with Killian's envious nerd turned villain trope. In isolation the twist itself was good in subverting the typical evil forgein guy portrait. But it was the wrong film to do it in imo. The Mandarin had been the instigator of Tonys continual PTSD symptoms but that all disappeared after The Mandarin twist was revealed which was disappointing because Tonys personal anguish was being played out with decent conviction. Tonys whole paranoia was about being unable to control threats he cannot pinpoint or predict. The aura of The Mandarin in his "lesson videos" is exotic and alien in nature much like the Chitauri army from New York. But once he finds out Killian was the real villain, that mystical, foreign threat is destroyed along with the bulk of Tonys anxiety. The threat is now just another American that he is already familiar with and has known in his past playboy lifestyle who has turned on him with the nerd to evil scientist trope. Keeping the real Mandarin would have been better for Tonys character in overcoming his personal problems full circle. Your argument hinges on the source of Tony's PTSD being the Mandarin when in fact, it was the Battle of New York. New York fundamentally altered Tony's view of himself and the world around him. He saw God-like beings from another planet pour through an artificial blackhole with weapons of mass destruction that make the Iron Man look like a toy by comparison. When he flew the nuke into the portal, he had no idea what he would confront; this is what it means to be a hero. Tony felt fear in the face of certain death and pushed on. He had never experienced that before, and it shook him to his core. If anything, the Mandarin's earth-bound threat represented Tony's chance to take back some of the control he'd lost in New York. He brazenly challenges the Mandarin to come for him in front of a large, public gathering of people - he isn't afraid. "Exotic" and "Alien" are just placeholders for fetishistic traits in your narrative. Tony Stark is a wealthy, cosmopolitan businessman. He has seen other cultures, and he's experienced the threat of terrorism first hand (while in captivity no less). The idea that the Mandarin's theatrics could inspire paralyzing dread in him doesn't hold much water. Once Tony finds out that Killian and Maya are the real threats, he learns (once again) that his actions have consequences. His refusal to acknowledge both of those individuals as equals in the earlier stages of their discoveries is what causes them to seek revenge. Tony's lesson is that he can't be a functioning narcissist and a superhero at the same time.
|
|
|
Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Jan 9, 2019 5:45:00 GMT
Did you see it coming?
- No I didn't know anything about it.
Did it upset you then?
- I remember laughing about it in the theater.
Are you upset about it now?
- I definitely dislike it more now than I did than. The reason is because it was kind of exactly what happened in the other two movies. We have a perfectly interesting villain like the 10 Rings, Whiplash, or the Mandarin, but Tony finds out a CEO type that's out to get him, like Obadiah Stane, Justin Hammer, or Aldrich Killian, is pretty much behind everything. Which worked well in the first movie, but that's a pretty specific idea to keep repeating. Plus, I really wanted to see the real Mandarin lol. But I'm a fan of Shane Black and I love Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang, so I really enjoy the movie up until that point.
Do you really dig it?
- Naw. I think I wouldn't mind if they had had the character eventually. The real Mandarin was teased in a Marvel One-Shot, but RDJ is leaving the MCU now. So it's kind of a bummer we won't see him face off with the real version of the character.
What about IM3 as a whole?
- As a whole I think it's disappointing. I loved the holiday setting. I was enjoying the idea of the Mandarin, I liked the PTSD storyline, and I liked that he was taking on the bad guys as Tony Stark, not Iron Man, and would've enjoyed to see more of all that. But after the reveal all those things are sort of dropped and he not only uses one suit but like 50 then explodicides them all lol. But I think it's much better than IM2, and it gets a few too many criticisms as a whole just because of that one reveal. It's kind of both overrated and underrated.
|
|
|
Post by damngumby on Jan 9, 2019 7:56:07 GMT
Did you see it coming? Did it upset you then? Are you upset about it now? Do you really dig it? What about IM3 as a whole? Loved it! Loved it it even more after seeing this ...
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Jan 9, 2019 11:17:29 GMT
Your argument hinges on the source of Tony's PTSD being the Mandarin when in fact, it was the Battle of New York. New York fundamentally altered Tony's view of himself and the world around him. He saw God-like beings from another planet pour through an artificial blackhole with weapons of mass destruction that make the Iron Man look like a toy by comparison. When he flew the nuke into the portal, he had no idea what he would confront; this is what it means to be a hero. Tony felt fear in the face of certain death and pushed on. He had never experienced that before, and it shook him to his core. Instigator was the wrong word to use. An accelerant to his PTSD is more what I meant. The attacks from the Mandarin were just as unpredictable and surprise like as the Chitauri invasion and this lack of control is what was heightening Tonys trauma. He challenges him on camera to appear confident and show people that he has the illusion of control. I would argue this is a façade and deep down he knows hes just as unprepared in stopping the extremis attacks as he was in stopping the alien invasion. He has lost control of the situation and also lost his witty, suave demeanour that he confronted Loki with. Its been replaced with an uncharacteristic unhinged tone. A good point about him being captive in IM1 by Arab terrorists. In the cave though, he was fairly level headed throughout the hostage situation all things considered. He could think his way out of trouble using his intellect. But Mandarins theatrics along with his attacks clearly rattled Stark and no way does he seem to have the same composure when he's doing the public call out. If the movie pulled off the Mandarin in a similar direction to the Joker, as most people wanted, it would have overcome that problem. Bruce in BB had travelled the world to explore the criminal mind, coming up against a variety of them his journey. But the Joker could not be understood, he is one of a kind and that does lead to ''paralyzing dread'' with an obsession to stopping him. By making Mandarin just another hollow/fake villain destroys the potential hero-villain duality that would have been more innovative than the nerd guy hates Stark because of jealousy and revenge reasons. Well if they wanted to really make that point they should have killed Pepper (Rachel Dawes) as the ultimate price to his recklessness to make sure he fully understood the lesson. But hes back to his usual ways after IM3 but that's another story.
|
|
|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 9, 2019 12:58:35 GMT
Movies are predominantly produced, controlled and feature white people, that's the difference. A minority is begging for more representation and all they give you is a generic stereotype role, how are you going to feel? Asian cinema can do whatever it wants with its characters just like white people can do whatever they want with white people for the same reason. It's the reason M'Baku works in BP and would not work in a film overwhelmingly featuring white people with a white production crew. Frankly, it's the same reason black rappers can use the N word and white ones can't. Political correctness can spiral out of control, I won't argue that. But in most cases I understand why these decisions are made. There are so many social factors in play when you're trying to give opportunities to underrepresented people and be respectful of cultural differences at the same time. Sometimes you roll your eyes at this stuff (personally, I can't wait until it's no longer necessary for the BP director to be black, or the Wonder Woman director to be a woman, etc.), but I'd rather roll my eyes now than continue to look back and cringe as we continue the inequality that's been on display in popular culture for... well, for as long as storytelling in any form has been in existence. I would agree with all of that if the Mandarin were the only Asian character in entertainment but he isn't. There are countless positive Asian characters in movies and TV going back decades and in the MCU. I'm sure you could list them as well as I could. How many do we have to have before we can stop walking on egg shells? Is there a quota that will satisfy everyone?
The answer to that is of course no, because the TINY number of people that would complain about the Mandarin will never be satisfied.
So I don't agree with this; "Asian cinema can do whatever it wants with its characters just like white people can do whatever they want with white people for the same reason."
I think everyone can do whatever they like with any of their characters and the audience should be able to look at each one individually and IN CONTEXT to decide if they think it is appropriate or not.
The people that would complain about the Mandarin are the same people who say "Multiculturalism is the greatest thing ever" but whenever someone adopts something from another culture they yell "That's cultural appropriation, you can't do that!". Trying to make people like that happy is pointless and only serves to restrict and water down all forms of entertainment.
There are limits in either direction, obviously. I don't disagree with your sentiment, I'm only saying I understand why these decisions are made. I want equal opportunities for all but as I said earlier, I can't wait to get past the current climate where a black director has to direct a black hero, a female director for a female hero and so on.
|
|