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Post by hobowar on Jan 9, 2019 13:41:22 GMT
Your argument hinges on the source of Tony's PTSD being the Mandarin when in fact, it was the Battle of New York. New York fundamentally altered Tony's view of himself and the world around him. He saw God-like beings from another planet pour through an artificial blackhole with weapons of mass destruction that make the Iron Man look like a toy by comparison. When he flew the nuke into the portal, he had no idea what he would confront; this is what it means to be a hero. Tony felt fear in the face of certain death and pushed on. He had never experienced that before, and it shook him to his core. Instigator was the wrong word to use. An accelerant to his PTSD is more what I meant. The attacks from the Mandarin were just as unpredictable and surprise like as the Chitauri invasion and this lack of control is what was heightening Tonys trauma. He challenges him on camera to appear confident and show people that he has the illusion of control. I would argue this is a façade and deep down he knows hes just as unprepared in stopping the extremis attacks as he was in stopping the alien invasion. He has lost control of the situation and also lost his witty, suave demeanour that he confronted Loki with. Its been replaced with an uncharacteristic unhinged tone. A good point about him being captive in IM1 by Arab terrorists. In the cave though, he was fairly level headed throughout the hostage situation all things considered. He could think his way out of trouble using his intellect. But Mandarins theatrics along with his attacks clearly rattled Stark and no way does he seem to have the same composure when he's doing the public call out. If the movie pulled off the Mandarin in a similar direction to the Joker, as most people wanted, it would have overcome that problem. Bruce in BB had travelled the world to explore the criminal mind, coming up against a variety of them his journey. But the Joker could not be understood, he is one of a kind and that does lead to ''paralyzing dread'' with an obsession to stopping him. By making Mandarin just another hollow/fake villain destroys the potential hero-villain duality that would have been more innovative than the nerd guy hates Stark because of jealousy and revenge reasons. Well if they wanted to really make that point they should have killed Pepper (Rachel Dawes) as the ultimate price to his recklessness to make sure he fully understood the lesson. But hes back to his usual ways after IM3 but that's another story. Maybe they wanted their female characters to be more than a cheap plot device for a man to learn a lesson. Leave that kind of weak ass storytelling for DC. |
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Post by charzhino on Jan 9, 2019 14:25:15 GMT
Maybe they wanted their female characters to be more than a cheap plot device for a man to learn a lesson. Leave that kind of weak ass storytelling for DC. Then maybe do something productive with Pepper Pots after iron man 3. All she is, is a cheap plot device that Tony needs around to feel vulnerable. And what's with Shane Black making her character a powerful extremis weilder who kills Killian easily, only to be totally forgotten about minutes later as she decided to take a convenient cure? Shane wanted to subvert expectations again by having a strong powerful woman who saves Stark in the big fight and has her undeserved 15 mins of fame? Meh. Thats what you called forced herosim. Rachel Dawes in Dark Knight gives justice to the title of a strong independent women. More than Pepper Pots ever has on multiple films. |
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Post by summers8 on Jan 9, 2019 15:06:39 GMT
once it was revealed Disney rejected the substance abuse story line . the mandarin twist all fits.
Disney set out to make an idiotic brainless movie. you cant have a person who is meant to be like bin laden anymore than you can have a true alcoholic in that same movie.
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Post by HorrorMetal on Jan 9, 2019 15:48:00 GMT
I was upset then and still cannot re-watch the movie because of the twist. This. It's the only MCU movie that I've watched only once. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jan 9, 2019 16:38:30 GMT
Your argument hinges on the source of Tony's PTSD being the Mandarin when in fact, it was the Battle of New York. New York fundamentally altered Tony's view of himself and the world around him. He saw God-like beings from another planet pour through an artificial blackhole with weapons of mass destruction that make the Iron Man look like a toy by comparison. When he flew the nuke into the portal, he had no idea what he would confront; this is what it means to be a hero. Tony felt fear in the face of certain death and pushed on. He had never experienced that before, and it shook him to his core. Instigator was the wrong word to use. An accelerant to his PTSD is more what I meant. The attacks from the Mandarin were just as unpredictable and surprise like as the Chitauri invasion and this lack of control is what was heightening Tonys trauma. He challenges him on camera to appear confident and show people that he has the illusion of control. I would argue this is a façade and deep down he knows hes just as unprepared in stopping the extremis attacks as he was in stopping the alien invasion. He has lost control of the situation and also lost his witty, suave demeanour that he confronted Loki with. Its been replaced with an uncharacteristic unhinged tone. A good point about him being captive in IM1 by Arab terrorists. In the cave though, he was fairly level headed throughout the hostage situation all things considered. He could think his way out of trouble using his intellect. But Mandarins theatrics along with his attacks clearly rattled Stark and no way does he seem to have the same composure when he's doing the public call out. If the movie pulled off the Mandarin in a similar direction to the Joker, as most people wanted, it would have overcome that problem. Bruce in BB had travelled the world to explore the criminal mind, coming up against a variety of them his journey. But the Joker could not be understood, he is one of a kind and that does lead to ''paralyzing dread'' with an obsession to stopping him. By making Mandarin just another hollow/fake villain destroys the potential hero-villain duality that would have been more innovative than the nerd guy hates Stark because of jealousy and revenge reasons. Well if they wanted to really make that point they should have killed Pepper (Rachel Dawes) as the ultimate price to his recklessness to make sure he fully understood the lesson. But hes back to his usual ways after IM3 but that's another story. I disagree. When Tony first approached Jim for information about the Mandarin, it's clear that he only wants to assist in handling the threat because it will serve as a distraction from his mounting anxiety which, again, was caused by the battle of New York. He is cavalier with Jim during the discussion, and he hints that he could handle the threat quickly and easily. Jim assures him that the Iron Man is not needed and, that the issue has to be dealt with on a Federal level for PR reasons. Tony leaves this meeting after suffering an anxiety attack bought on by a child asking him, "how did you escape the wormhole?" This is another allusion to New York specifically. The Mandarin doesn't register as a real threat to Tony until Happy is seriously injured during the Extremis attack at the Chinese Theater. It is immediately after leaving Happy in the hospital that he is intercepted by reporters and makes his on-camera threat. Tony's is feeling angry at the Mandarin at this point and not afraid of him. I would argue that Tony is overconfident at this moment and believes he can handle the Mandarin easily (not yet knowing that he is the face of a larger conspiracy with much broader implications). Tony is content to leave the reporters without saying a word until one reporter asks him pointedly, "when is someone going to kill this guy?" The reporter is referring to the Mandarin of course. If Tony were trying to create the "illusion" of control, he would have likely engaged with the reporters from the outset. He is clearly angry and emotional over Happy's condition. He is not "unhinged." Not sure how you arrived at that. Is there an actual moment in the movie you can point to where Tony is "clearly rattled" by the Mandarin's tactics that don't amount to simple anger or confusion? Every time Tony has an anxiety attack, New York is the trigger. It is usually mentioned by name during these incidents. Batman is not Iron Man, and Iron Man 3 is not Batman Begins. I'm not sure of how you could conflate the first entry in a superhero franchise with the third in another. Attempting to use the dynamics of Batman to script doctor Iron Man demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of both characters. Batman has intimate relationships with his rogue's gallery, they inform each other's actions on a profoundly personal level. Iron Man, on the other hand, has a rogue's gallery that is made up of modern concepts. The Iron Man faces off against terrorism, corporate espionage, environmental degradation, hate crimes, etc. The physical villains in his gallery are merely agents of these ideas. This is what makes Iron Man a truly 21-century hero as opposed to the stodgy and, the debatably out-moded heroes who need an equally dire villain to challenge them. It seems like you have the same problem that a lot of detractors of Iron Man 3 have. You are a traditionalist who is adhering to dogmatic doctrine about what the genre is and should be. That said, Iron Man 3 still stands as one of my top five favorite MCU films. It has some of the most well-constructed action sequences (in and out of the armor). It's a near rival to the first entry as an engaging character piece and, it forces Tony to use almost every resource at his disposal to triumph in the end. |
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Post by hobowar on Jan 9, 2019 16:58:00 GMT
Instigator was the wrong word to use. An accelerant to his PTSD is more what I meant. The attacks from the Mandarin were just as unpredictable and surprise like as the Chitauri invasion and this lack of control is what was heightening Tonys trauma. He challenges him on camera to appear confident and show people that he has the illusion of control. I would argue this is a façade and deep down he knows hes just as unprepared in stopping the extremis attacks as he was in stopping the alien invasion. He has lost control of the situation and also lost his witty, suave demeanour that he confronted Loki with. Its been replaced with an uncharacteristic unhinged tone. A good point about him being captive in IM1 by Arab terrorists. In the cave though, he was fairly level headed throughout the hostage situation all things considered. He could think his way out of trouble using his intellect. But Mandarins theatrics along with his attacks clearly rattled Stark and no way does he seem to have the same composure when he's doing the public call out. If the movie pulled off the Mandarin in a similar direction to the Joker, as most people wanted, it would have overcome that problem. Bruce in BB had travelled the world to explore the criminal mind, coming up against a variety of them his journey. But the Joker could not be understood, he is one of a kind and that does lead to ''paralyzing dread'' with an obsession to stopping him. By making Mandarin just another hollow/fake villain destroys the potential hero-villain duality that would have been more innovative than the nerd guy hates Stark because of jealousy and revenge reasons. Well if they wanted to really make that point they should have killed Pepper (Rachel Dawes) as the ultimate price to his recklessness to make sure he fully understood the lesson. But hes back to his usual ways after IM3 but that's another story. I disagree. When Tony first approached Jim for information about the Mandarin, it's clear that he only wants to assist in handling the threat because it will serve as a distraction from his mounting anxiety which, again, was caused by the battle of New York. He is cavalier with Jim during the discussion, and he hints that he could handle the threat quickly and easily. Jim assures him that the Iron Man is not needed and, that the issue has to be dealt with on a Federal level for PR reasons. Tony leaves this meeting after suffering an anxiety attack bought on by a child asking him, "how did you escape the wormhole?" This is another allusion to New York specifically. The Mandarin doesn't register as a real threat to Tony until Happy is seriously injured during the Extremis attack at the Chinese Theater. It is immediately after leaving Happy in the hospital that he is intercepted by reporters and makes his on-camera threat. Tony's is feeling angry at the Mandarin at this point and not afraid of him. I would argue that Tony is overconfident at this moment and believes he can handle the Mandarin easily (not yet knowing that he is the face of a larger conspiracy with much broader implications). Tony is content to leave the reporters without saying a word until one reporter asks him pointedly, "when is someone going to kill this guy?" The reporter is referring to the Mandarin of course. If Tony were trying to create the "illusion" of control, he would have likely engaged with the reporters from the outset. He is clearly angry and emotional over Happy's condition. He is not "unhinged." Not sure how you arrived at that. Is there an actual moment in the movie you can point to where Tony is "clearly rattled" by the Mandarin's tactics that don't amount to simple anger or confusion? Every time Tony has an anxiety attack, New York is the trigger. It is usually mentioned by name during these incidents. Batman is not Iron Man, and Iron Man 3 is not Batman Begins. I'm not sure of how you could conflate the first entry in a superhero franchise with the third in another. Attempting to use the dynamics of Batman to script doctor Iron Man demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of both characters. Batman has intimate relationships with his rogue's gallery, they inform each other's actions on a profoundly personal level. Iron Man, on the other hand, has a rogue's gallery that is made up of modern concepts. The Iron Man faces off against terrorism, corporate espionage, environmental degradation, hate crimes, etc. The physical villains in his gallery are merely agents of these ideas. This is what makes Iron Man a truly 21-century hero as opposed to the stodgy and, the debatably out-moded heroes who need an equally dire villain to challenge them. It seems like you have the same problem that a lot of detractors of Iron Man 3 have. You are a traditionalist who is adhering to dogmatic doctrine about what the genre is and should be. That said, Iron Man 3 still stands as one of my top five favorite MCU films. It has some of the most well-constructed action sequences (in and out of the armor). It's a near rival to the first entry as an engaging character piece and, it forces Tony to use almost every resource at his disposal to triumph in the end.  |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 9, 2019 17:42:18 GMT
Anyone else think Mandarin Twist should be an Iron Fist story arc?
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Post by charzhino on Jan 9, 2019 18:37:58 GMT
Batman is not Iron Man, and Iron Man 3 is not Batman Begins. I'm not sure of how you could conflate the first entry in a superhero franchise with the third in another. Attempting to use the dynamics of Batman to script doctor Iron Man demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of both characters. Batman has intimate relationships with his rogue's gallery, they inform each other's actions on a profoundly personal level. Iron Man, on the other hand, has a rogue's gallery that is made up of modern concepts. The Iron Man faces off against terrorism, corporate espionage, environmental degradation, hate crimes, etc. The physical villains in his gallery are merely agents of these ideas. This is what makes Iron Man a truly 21-century hero as opposed to the stodgy and, the debatably out-moded heroes who need an equally dire villain to challenge them. It seems like you have the same problem that a lot of detractors of Iron Man 3 have. You are a traditionalist who is adhering to dogmatic doctrine about what the genre is and should be. Batman isnt Ironman. But they share similar overlapping stories, in the movies anyway. Both are loners whose parents were murdered and have only 1 or 2 close relations. Both are rich, famous and have achieved personal technological strides forward. Both have travelled the world and seen crime first hand in the lowest reaches possible to which they came back with a different outlook on life. Thats enough for a parallel to be made in their response to a Joker/Real Mandarin type opposition. You said the Mandarin is a lame villain in the source. But that doesnt stop movie writers reimagining villains on screen for the benefit of the final script. You dont seem to have a problem with Shane Black making Mandarin a red herring fake actor, so why have a problem in making him a grounded terrorist cult leader? For iron man 3, which is a middling film in general despite what weirdraptor says, a dogmatic linear story of hero vs traditional villain would have served audiences better at that time, right after Avengers The remote air save sequence and DIY weaponry is good. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jan 9, 2019 19:21:32 GMT
Batman is not Iron Man, and Iron Man 3 is not Batman Begins. I'm not sure of how you could conflate the first entry in a superhero franchise with the third in another. Attempting to use the dynamics of Batman to script doctor Iron Man demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of both characters. Batman has intimate relationships with his rogue's gallery, they inform each other's actions on a profoundly personal level. Iron Man, on the other hand, has a rogue's gallery that is made up of modern concepts. The Iron Man faces off against terrorism, corporate espionage, environmental degradation, hate crimes, etc. The physical villains in his gallery are merely agents of these ideas. This is what makes Iron Man a truly 21-century hero as opposed to the stodgy and, the debatably out-moded heroes who need an equally dire villain to challenge them. It seems like you have the same problem that a lot of detractors of Iron Man 3 have. You are a traditionalist who is adhering to dogmatic doctrine about what the genre is and should be. Batman isnt Ironman. But they share similar overlapping stories, in the movies anyway. Both are loners whose parents were murdered and have only 1 or 2 close relations. Both are rich, famous and have achieved personal technological strides forward. Both have travelled the world and seen crime first hand in the lowest reaches possible to which they came back with a different outlook on life. Thats enough for a parallel to be made in their response to a Joker/Real Mandarin type opposition. You said the Mandarin is a lame villain in the source. But that doesnt stop movie writers reimagining villains on screen for the benefit of the final script. You dont seem to have a problem with Shane Black making Mandarin a red herring fake actor, so why have a problem in making him a grounded terrorist cult leader? The remote air save sequence and DIY weaponry is good. I don't think it is. I'll grant you that the characters have many superficial similarities upon cursory examination; however, I hardly think that leads us to a place where the Mandarin and the Joker can become near equivalents. The Joker is likely the most well-known and universally loved villain of all time (to my eternal chagrin as a comic book aficionado). The Mandarin does not have an ounce of the psychological depth and complexity of the Joker. Your comparison of the two puts you on very shaky ground. I would abandon that tack if I were you. Tony Stark and the Iron Man are indivisible. Tony's goal is to transform himself into a living weapon. He blurs the lines between technology and biology to achieve this goal. His scope is global, and, through advanced technology, his reach is boundless. Tony's belief is first and foremost in his own precision. Batman and Bruce Wayne are two conflicting entities. They are at odds with each other, and it is this dynamic that makes the character unique amongst his peers. The Batman is waging a one-man war on crime in a single city - his scope is limited. The Batman suppresses his own needs and sacrifices his happiness, freedom, fortune, and life to prosecute a mission that must end in failure. These two characters couldn't be more different once you look past the surface veneer. The same is true for their adversaries. The Joker is the living representation of fear and chaos. The Mandarin is a power-mad despot initially created to exploit western anxiety over the so-called Yellow Peril. The Mandarin is not just a lame character, he's an offensive one. This is why it becomes problematic and challenging to elevate him to the Joker's iconic status in a single motion picture appearance. You'd almost be foolish to try. The Mandarin was the perfect character to use in a deconstruction of the villain genre trope. Marvel thought that at that point, they'd won the trust of fans and earned the right to some latitude with experimenting with the genre's story form and function. They severely overestimated their audience (which is unfortunate). Again, I believe you are trying to graft traditionalist genre tropes onto a movie and character that they were not designed for. Don't worry, you're definitely not alone in this creatively bankrupt line of thinking. Almost everyone agrees with you. |
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Larry
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@summer
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Post by Larry on Jan 9, 2019 20:22:33 GMT
Batman isnt Ironman. But they share similar overlapping stories, in the movies anyway. Both are loners whose parents were murdered and have only 1 or 2 close relations. Both are rich, famous and have achieved personal technological strides forward. Both have travelled the world and seen crime first hand in the lowest reaches possible to which they came back with a different outlook on life. Thats enough for a parallel to be made in their response to a Joker/Real Mandarin type opposition. You said the Mandarin is a lame villain in the source. But that doesnt stop movie writers reimagining villains on screen for the benefit of the final script. You dont seem to have a problem with Shane Black making Mandarin a red herring fake actor, so why have a problem in making him a grounded terrorist cult leader? The remote air save sequence and DIY weaponry is good. I don't think it is. I'll grant you that the characters have many superficial similarities upon cursory examination; however, I hardly think that leads us to a place where the Mandarin and the Joker can become near equivalents. The Joker is likely the most well-known and universally loved villain of all time (to my eternal chagrin as a comic book aficionado). The Mandarin does not have an ounce of the psychological depth and complexity of the Joker. Your comparison of the two puts you on very shaky ground. I would abandon that tack if I were you. Tony Stark and the Iron Man are indivisible. Tony's goal is to transform himself into a living weapon. He blurs the lines between technology and biology to achieve this goal. His scope is global, and, through advanced technology, his reach is boundless. Tony's belief is first and foremost in his own precision. Batman and Bruce Wayne are two conflicting entities. They are at odds with each other, and it is this dynamic that makes the character unique amongst his peers. The Batman is waging a one-man war on crime in a single city - his scope is limited. The Batman suppresses his own needs and sacrifices his happiness, freedom, fortune, and life to prosecute a mission that must end in failure. These two characters couldn't be more different once you look past the surface veneer. The same is true for their adversaries. The Joker is the living representation of fear and chaos. The Mandarin is a power-mad despot initially created to exploit western anxiety over the so-called Yellow Peril. The Mandarin is not just a lame character, he's an offensive one. This is why it becomes problematic and challenging to elevate him to the Joker's iconic status in a single motion picture appearance. You'd almost be foolish to try. The Mandarin was the perfect character to use in a deconstruction of the villain genre trope. Marvel thought that at that point, they'd won the trust of fans and earned the right to some latitude with experimenting with the genre's story form and function. They severely overestimated their audience (which is unfortunate). Again, I believe you are trying to graft traditionalist genre tropes onto a movie and character that they were not designed for. Don't worry, you're definitely not alone in this creatively bankrupt line of thinking. Almost everyone agrees with you. Marvel studios should have just bit the bullet and let the Chinese be offended |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jan 9, 2019 20:28:18 GMT
I don't think it is. I'll grant you that the characters have many superficial similarities upon cursory examination; however, I hardly think that leads us to a place where the Mandarin and the Joker can become near equivalents. The Joker is likely the most well-known and universally loved villain of all time (to my eternal chagrin as a comic book aficionado). The Mandarin does not have an ounce of the psychological depth and complexity of the Joker. Your comparison of the two puts you on very shaky ground. I would abandon that tack if I were you. Tony Stark and the Iron Man are indivisible. Tony's goal is to transform himself into a living weapon. He blurs the lines between technology and biology to achieve this goal. His scope is global, and, through advanced technology, his reach is boundless. Tony's belief is first and foremost in his own precision. Batman and Bruce Wayne are two conflicting entities. They are at odds with each other, and it is this dynamic that makes the character unique amongst his peers. The Batman is waging a one-man war on crime in a single city - his scope is limited. The Batman suppresses his own needs and sacrifices his happiness, freedom, fortune, and life to prosecute a mission that must end in failure. These two characters couldn't be more different once you look past the surface veneer. The same is true for their adversaries. The Joker is the living representation of fear and chaos. The Mandarin is a power-mad despot initially created to exploit western anxiety over the so-called Yellow Peril. The Mandarin is not just a lame character, he's an offensive one. This is why it becomes problematic and challenging to elevate him to the Joker's iconic status in a single motion picture appearance. You'd almost be foolish to try. The Mandarin was the perfect character to use in a deconstruction of the villain genre trope. Marvel thought that at that point, they'd won the trust of fans and earned the right to some latitude with experimenting with the genre's story form and function. They severely overestimated their audience (which is unfortunate). Again, I believe you are trying to graft traditionalist genre tropes onto a movie and character that they were not designed for. Don't worry, you're definitely not alone in this creatively bankrupt line of thinking. Almost everyone agrees with you. Marvel studios should have just bit the bullet and let the Chinese be offended That’s a cavalier attitude to be sure in an age where films like Aquaman bring in over 70% of their box office receipts from outside the US. The most significant chunk of that being from China. |
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Jan 9, 2019 20:33:30 GMT
Who is summers9? If it's the same person as summers8 I need to update my blocked list.
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Larry
New Member
@summer
Posts: 32
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Post by Larry on Jan 9, 2019 20:43:31 GMT
Marvel studios should have just bit the bullet and let the Chinese be offended That’s a cavalier attitude to be sure in an age where films like Aquaman bring in over 70% of their box office receipts from outside the US. The most significant chunk of that being from China. only SJWs care about China. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jan 9, 2019 20:45:38 GMT
That’s a cavalier attitude to be sure in an age where films like Aquaman bring in over 70% of their box office receipts from outside the US. The most significant chunk of that being from China. only SJWs care about China. Uh, duly noted. I could be wrong but, the Chinese likely care about China, too. |
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Larry
New Member
@summer
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Post by Larry on Jan 9, 2019 20:48:26 GMT
only SJWs care about China. Uh, duly noted. I could be wrong but, the Chinese likely care about China, too. true |
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Post by blockbusted on Sept 14, 2019 17:56:16 GMT
Anyone else think Mandarin Twist should be an Iron Fist story arc? Well, he's a 'Shang-Chi' villain now.  |
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Post by blockbusted on Sept 14, 2019 17:58:09 GMT
once it was revealed Disney rejected the substance abuse story line . the mandarin twist all fits. Disney set out to make an idiotic brainless movie. you cant have a person who is meant to be like bin laden anymore than you can have a true alcoholic in that same movie. summers8, how do you feel about 'X-Men: Dark Phoenix' is the worst comic book film of 2019? |
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Post by scabab on Sept 17, 2019 12:17:48 GMT
Hellboy counts as a comic book film...that was horrific.
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Post by sostie on Sept 17, 2019 12:25:51 GMT
Hellboy counts as a comic book film...that was horrific. I actually enjoyed that film...certainly more than Dark Phoenix
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