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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 16:45:16 GMT
I hear what you’re saying, but none of those are any sort of a problem, or lazy. She wasn’t supposed to have a major arc, she was discovering who she was. She wasn’t supposed to overcome any setback from her past, because is that she had a normal life. Being chased out of activities by boys happens all the time. Being left as a test pilot is what happened then, and being that pilot in the first place is what shows how good she is. All of that was well paced, well acted, well shot, etc. It’s like you’re not accepting it for what it is. I really don’t see how any of what you said is an actual issue so much as some sort of personal preference you have. Accepting the movie for what it is definately helped me to enjoy it a lot more than I did in my first viewing. There's certainly some truth to what you're saying. Carol isn't meant to overcome a major flaw, she's only discovering who she was, and therefore who she is. It's solid enough, but I can't help but wish for more in Marvel's only female led series. Wonder Woman has similar issues. Maybe worse in some ways. It certainly is personal preference. You are right there, I think. I admit I very much want more nuanced female characters in cinema that undergo the same positive arcs that the male characters often do. This is why I think Nebula is far and away Marvel's best female character. She is allowed to have real flaws, and real depth.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 14, 2019 16:46:55 GMT
For one Carol is not really that remarkable, outside of her being gifted by powers by accident, they tried just showing a handful of incidents with guys being dicks to her because she's a girl as though it's some great character motivation, but we never see that, on one hand we see she's underestimated for being a woman, but we aren't shown how she overcomes this, she literally goes from being mocked for not being able to climb a rope to partying to being an air force pilot, there's no showing how her resolve and determination overcome this, you know like they did with Steve Rogers, he was underestimated for being weak but we see him proving his superior mind and heart showing the Dr why he's the choice to be Cap.
Also she doesn't have an arc, she starts the film being like meh whatever i'll do what I want, she midway is like meh whatever I'll do what I want and the big turning point in the movie is when she goes meh whatever I will do what I want, that's not an arc it's just the same shit, the idea is she overcomes the Supreme Intelligence and free's herself from their control, but they NEVER had control just the illusion of it, and how they had this is ridiculous, did Carol never question why she alone had these superpowers? if the Kree gave them to her then why not anyone else?
They try to have characters TELL us Carol is special, but not once is it shown, she didn't get her powers because in ANY way she stood out, MAr-Vell didn't want her with her during the mission, Carol simply turned up and was like nah I'm coming along, they rested on the hopes that yeah girl power would carry them through a paint by numbers mediocre movie, it was lazy imo and could have been so much better executed.
I gotta say, I completely agree with this. Though I do enjoy the movie, I think they really could have done a better job with their first female led outing. I'll also add that the characterization of Carol is all over the map. Sometimes we're supposed to buy her as this spunky sarcastic type but those moments feel completely forced and out of character for someone that is stoic and soft spoken the other 95% of the time. They also try to make her confidence seem endearing, but this often fails because there isn't a lot of virtue behind it to make it anything more than arrogance. Like in End Game where she says: "Because you didn't have me"- This is meant to be a badass line, but it shows that the writers are far too aware of her gender and wrongly believe that his will play as endearing when it actually plays as obnoxious- just as it would for a male character. They would never give that line to Thor or Stark and expect it to play like they wanted it to play here. The irony being that the audience is far more accepting of powerful females than the movies gives them credit for, and therefore don't need these girl power moments to take the place of actual nuanced dialogue. Carol only works in her own movie because of the amnesia. The mystery is what keeps us interested, and keeps the plot moving. They are going to have a big challenge ahead of them with the sequel, because they're basically gonna have to rework this character from scratch. Idk, I felt it all worked. I thought the sarcastic carol worked great as her core personality underneath her stoic down to business persona. I don’t see any reason to rework that, just advance where she’s at.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 14, 2019 16:52:06 GMT
I hear what you’re saying, but none of those are any sort of a problem, or lazy. She wasn’t supposed to have a major arc, she was discovering who she was. She wasn’t supposed to overcome any setback from her past, because is that she had a normal life. Being chased out of activities by boys happens all the time. Being left as a test pilot is what happened then, and being that pilot in the first place is what shows how good she is. All of that was well paced, well acted, well shot, etc. It’s like you’re not accepting it for what it is. I really don’t see how any of what you said is an actual issue so much as some sort of personal preference you have. Accepting the movie for what it is definately helped me to enjoy it a lot more than I did in my first viewing. There's certainly some truth to what you're saying. Carol isn't meant to overcome a major flaw, she's only discovering who she was, and therefore who she is. It's solid enough, but I can't help but wish for more in Marvel's only female led series. Wonder Woman has similar issues. Maybe worse in some ways. It certainly is personal preference. You are right there, I think. I admit I very much want more nuanced female characters in cinema that undergo the same positive arcs that the male characters often do. This is why I think Nebula is far and away Marvel's best female character. She is allowed to have real flaws, and real depth. Personally, I put no special significance on Carol being a woman. The idea of it being female led doesn’t change anything about how I perceive it or what I want out of it or anything. It’s a story about a person, and I really dig the idea about a special ops warrior who slowly realizes her team has deceived her. Plus what’s this idea about needing a character arc. We loved Indiana Jones and he doesn’t even effect the plot of his own film or have an arc. So I think that whole critique is really petty. It’s like finding a reason not to like something that was well done.
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Post by darkpast on Sept 14, 2019 16:53:49 GMT
all you need is Captain Marvel , no need for a team
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 16:53:59 GMT
I gotta say, I completely agree with this. Though I do enjoy the movie, I think they really could have done a better job with their first female led outing. I'll also add that the characterization of Carol is all over the map. Sometimes we're supposed to buy her as this spunky sarcastic type but those moments feel completely forced and out of character for someone that is stoic and soft spoken the other 95% of the time. They also try to make her confidence seem endearing, but this often fails because there isn't a lot of virtue behind it to make it anything more than arrogance. Like in End Game where she says: "Because you didn't have me"- This is meant to be a badass line, but it shows that the writers are far too aware of her gender and wrongly believe that his will play as endearing when it actually plays as obnoxious- just as it would for a male character. They would never give that line to Thor or Stark and expect it to play like they wanted it to play here. The irony being that the audience is far more accepting of powerful females than the movies gives them credit for, and therefore don't need these girl power moments to take the place of actual nuanced dialogue. Carol only works in her own movie because of the amnesia. The mystery is what keeps us interested, and keeps the plot moving. They are going to have a big challenge ahead of them with the sequel, because they're basically gonna have to rework this character from scratch. Idk, I felt it all worked. I thought the sarcastic carol worked great as her core personality underneath her stoic down to business persona. I don’t see any reason to rework that, just advance where she’s at. Fair enough. The sequel is certainly going to pose a few challenges though. When movie one is about a character with amnesia, then movie two should ideally be about said character exploring the discovery of their former identity. This is not possible in the sequel because presumably it will take place decades after the original. So the audience, who still doesn't really know Carol all that well, will have to be essentially re-introduced to her as if she is a new character altogether. It's not an impossible task, but it'll certainly be a tricky one to pull off.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 16:56:55 GMT
Accepting the movie for what it is definately helped me to enjoy it a lot more than I did in my first viewing. There's certainly some truth to what you're saying. Carol isn't meant to overcome a major flaw, she's only discovering who she was, and therefore who she is. It's solid enough, but I can't help but wish for more in Marvel's only female led series. Wonder Woman has similar issues. Maybe worse in some ways. It certainly is personal preference. You are right there, I think. I admit I very much want more nuanced female characters in cinema that undergo the same positive arcs that the male characters often do. This is why I think Nebula is far and away Marvel's best female character. She is allowed to have real flaws, and real depth. Personally, I put no special significance on Carol being a woman. The idea of it being female led doesn’t change anything about how I perceive it or what I want out of it or anything. It’s a story about a person, and I really dig the idea about a special ops warrior who slowly realizes her team has deceived her. Plus what’s this idea about needing a character arc. We loved Indiana Jones and he doesn’t even effect the plot of his own film or have an arc. So I think that whole critique is really petty. It’s like finding a reason not to like something that was well done. Indy does have a character arc: it's called a flat character arc. It's when the protagonist begins the film with fully formed ideals and no inner conflict. But, the character still has a fear and a doubt that hinder his progress. Captain America is a brilliant example of a flat arc character. He has a flat arc in every movie. Carol is NOT a flat arc character. She is clearly a positive arc character, and that arc is rather thin. Hence my critique. Dont forget, you are talking to an English Major here! LOL
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 14, 2019 16:58:25 GMT
Idk, I felt it all worked. I thought the sarcastic carol worked great as her core personality underneath her stoic down to business persona. I don’t see any reason to rework that, just advance where she’s at. Fair enough. The sequel is certainly going to pose a few challenges though. When movie one is about a character with amnesia, then movie two should ideally be about said character exploring the discovery of their former identity. This is not possible in the sequel because presumably it will take place decades after the original. So the audience, who still doesn't really know Carol all that well, will have to be essentially re-introduced to her as if she is a new character altogether. It's not an impossible task, but it'll certainly be a tricky one to pull off. Im curious if they do a story right after the first, and set it out in space.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 14, 2019 17:01:15 GMT
Personally, I put no special significance on Carol being a woman. The idea of it being female led doesn’t change anything about how I perceive it or what I want out of it or anything. It’s a story about a person, and I really dig the idea about a special ops warrior who slowly realizes her team has deceived her. Plus what’s this idea about needing a character arc. We loved Indiana Jones and he doesn’t even effect the plot of his own film or have an arc. So I think that whole critique is really petty. It’s like finding a reason not to like something that was well done. Indy does have a character arc: it's called a flat character arc. It's when the protagonist begins the film with fully formed ideals and no inner conflict. But, the character still has a fear and a doubt that hinder his progress. Captain America is a brilliant example of a flat arc character. He has a flat arc in every movie. Carol is NOT a flat arc character. She is clearly a positive arc character, and that arc is rather thin. Hence my critique. Dont forget, you are talking to an English Major here! LOL But Carol does have doubt. Her whole thing begins with ideals that are brought into question after her memories are probed and she begins to deviate from those initial ideals. That’s why scenes like the bike stealing come up and people ridiculously call that out of character. It’s because she’s not the good character yet. She’s on her mission still and going through that arc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 17:06:02 GMT
Indy does have a character arc: it's called a flat character arc. It's when the protagonist begins the film with fully formed ideals and no inner conflict. But, the character still has a fear and a doubt that hinder his progress. Captain America is a brilliant example of a flat arc character. He has a flat arc in every movie. Carol is NOT a flat arc character. She is clearly a positive arc character, and that arc is rather thin. Hence my critique. Dont forget, you are talking to an English Major here! LOL But Carol does have doubt. Her whole thing begins with ideals that are brought into question after her memories are probed and she begins to deviate from those initial ideals. That’s why scenes like the bike stealing come up and people ridiculously call that out of character. It’s because she’s not the good character yet. She’s on her mission still and going through that arc. Hmmmmmmm. I don't exactly agree with this, but fair enough. I'm certainly not saying her arc is a disaster or anything. It works fine. I just don't think it's super compelling. In all fairness, amnesia movies are hard to do without compromising character development, and Cap Marvel does a decent job working around the challenges.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 17:07:34 GMT
Fair enough. The sequel is certainly going to pose a few challenges though. When movie one is about a character with amnesia, then movie two should ideally be about said character exploring the discovery of their former identity. This is not possible in the sequel because presumably it will take place decades after the original. So the audience, who still doesn't really know Carol all that well, will have to be essentially re-introduced to her as if she is a new character altogether. It's not an impossible task, but it'll certainly be a tricky one to pull off. Im curious if they do a story right after the first, and set it out in space. It's possible. But isn't that Spiderman post credit scene a set up for Captain Marvel 2: Secret Invasion? That's what I assumed, anyway.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 14, 2019 17:14:49 GMT
But Carol does have doubt. Her whole thing begins with ideals that are brought into question after her memories are probed and she begins to deviate from those initial ideals. That’s why scenes like the bike stealing come up and people ridiculously call that out of character. It’s because she’s not the good character yet. She’s on her mission still and going through that arc. Hmmmmmmm. I don't exactly agree with this, but fair enough. I'm certainly not saying her arc is a disaster or anything. It works fine. I just don't think it's super compelling. In all fairness, amnesia movies are hard to do without compromising character development, and Cap Marvel does a decent job working around the challenges. Thats what I mean. It does a solid job. It accomplished what it wanted to. It wasn’t trying to have a bigger arc. It was simple self discovery. People calling it not well executed to me is just disrespectful of how good they did. They did a wonderful job. Lots of little great moments.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 14, 2019 17:15:32 GMT
Im curious if they do a story right after the first, and set it out in space. It's possible. But isn't that Spiderman post credit scene a set up for Captain Marvel 2: Secret Invasion? That's what I assumed, anyway. Maybe. I’m not sure where that’s leading.
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Post by dazz on Sept 14, 2019 20:37:42 GMT
I hear what you’re saying, but none of those are any sort of a problem, or lazy. She wasn’t supposed to have a major arc, she was discovering who she was. She wasn’t supposed to overcome any setback from her past, because the point is that she had a normal life. Being chased out of activities by boys happens all the time. Being left as a test pilot is what happened then, and being that pilot in the first place is what shows how good she is. All of that was well paced, well acted, well shot, etc. It’s like you’re not accepting it for what it is. I really don’t see how any of what you said is an actual issue so much as some sort of personal preference you have. Like you called her being the only one with powers ridiculous. A film doesn’t have to show you everything. Who said that she was the only one with any sort of power? We known Ronan has the cosmi-rod, and there are likely plenty of other things about for her to not think it was so unusual. So you’re just kind of making up that she should have suspected they didn’t give them to her. Actually it is a problem because Carol's whole thing as shown by multiple ads and the montage in the film is she keeps getting back up, one issue of this is that it isn't a unique quality, EVERY superhero pretty much does this, also this goes against your justification, if there is no setback to recover from then what is the point of trying to sell her as this never give up type?
This is what I mean by lazy, they didn't expand on this idea, it doesn't make it bad, it does however make it mediocre, all the ways this film could have stood out and been remarkable and it was basically just a compilation of every marvel trope for a generic mcu movie.
The idea Carol being a pilot makes her special works IF you emphasise that, if you don't then it doesn't, they should have used Carol's past more as a means to explain her current actions, she doesn't respond to Law's character telling her what to do because she is influenced by men in her past doing so to hold her back, then her blasting him at the end without any conflict makes sense, her two sides are not at odds anymore she isn't Vers anymore she is Carol Danvers once again, as the film seemed to want it to be a great moment that meant something but it's just a repeat of earlier in the film without much meaning because of how they executed it.
Something done great makes it so a film can be understood based on things in the film itself, but they don't set up really how much a accomplishment it was for Carol and her friend to be female air force pilots in the first place, you know like how Captain America established why Steve just couldn't join the army and be a grunt and needed to super soldier programme to even get a chance at serving his country, Cap Marvel assumed you would know this and fill in the blanks on important character defining traits, Cap America even if they assumed you could and would do this put it in the movie because it made for good character development.
On the flip side of that how hard was it for Carol? she was in an environment with people looking for ways to get her to wash out, so why wasn't she shown to be beyond criticism, why did they show her being more a partier than they did an ace recruit? what they showed actually undermines the implied difficulties she should have faced because they didn't think it through and it is lazy.
As for her powers it is ridiculous no one else had them, everyone else had weapons, Vers WAS a weapon however and she never figures this out apparently until the end, also that scene itself was idiotic, how does breaking the chip in a mindscape break the chip in reality? then the crap after also, like ok she couldn't fly before she hovered a little right after breaking the chip but Carol as she is about to go splat on the earth closes her eyes gets a grin on her face, stops falling and floats then can suddenly rocket herself around like she's Iron Man after months of practise, which is again lazy, they wait so long to fully power her up that they just make her a master off her powers without training, up till that point all she could do is photon blasts nothing else so where does this expertise come in? there's learning you can do something by happenstance and then there's that.
And yes these are just my opinions but seeing as you asked me for my opinion what else should you have expected? a dancing bear?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 14, 2019 20:44:40 GMT
It isn’t a problem, because that was never the point. You’re making up a goal of the film and then saying they didn’t accomplish that goal.
The film was about discovering who she was, and they did a great job of not only that journey but also a great backstory for Fury, a really interesting intro for the skrulls and an amazing 90’s setting which really takes me back. So mission accomplished.
You’re focusing on something that isn’t supposed to be there.
And the stuff about the chip or her falling and flying at the end worked too but I’m not going to bother with that yet.
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Post by dazz on Sept 14, 2019 20:52:59 GMT
I hear what you’re saying, but none of those are any sort of a problem, or lazy. She wasn’t supposed to have a major arc, she was discovering who she was. She wasn’t supposed to overcome any setback from her past, because is that she had a normal life. Being chased out of activities by boys happens all the time. Being left as a test pilot is what happened then, and being that pilot in the first place is what shows how good she is. All of that was well paced, well acted, well shot, etc. It’s like you’re not accepting it for what it is. I really don’t see how any of what you said is an actual issue so much as some sort of personal preference you have. Accepting the movie for what it is definately helped me to enjoy it a lot more than I did in my first viewing. There's certainly some truth to what you're saying. Carol isn't meant to overcome a major flaw, she's only discovering who she was, and therefore who she is. It's solid enough, but I can't help but wish for more in Marvel's only female led series. Wonder Woman has similar issues. Maybe worse in some ways. It certainly is personal preference. You are right there, I think. I admit I very much want more nuanced female characters in cinema that undergo the same positive arcs that the male characters often do. This is why I think Nebula is far and away Marvel's best female character. She is allowed to have real flaws, and real depth. I think the issue for me here is that it felt like they didn't know what they wanted to do with Carol really, if she's not meant to have an arc what was the point of all those getting knocked down but getting back up things, also I dunno the discovering who they are thing usually also seems to come with a dealing with what they learned, I don't think Carol does this, it's just ok we now need the plot to go here so Carol will learn this for whatever reason and wont have any real internal struggle, that would have been more interesting to see if Carol was of two minds more, like one hand is the obedient stoic Kree warrior Vers the other is the spit in the face of expectations rebellious, sarcastic and independent Carol, that she is mostly Vers in the beginning with Carol flaring up at times but she is otherwise a perfect warrior, then as the film goes along Carol takes charge more so by the final scenes Vers is gone and it is just Carol, this I don't think happens in the movie, Carol doesn't change she just shifts sides and gets a power boost, otherwise she's still the same character overall to me.
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Post by dazz on Sept 14, 2019 20:59:59 GMT
It isn’t a problem, because that was never the point. You’re making up a goal of the film and then saying they didn’t accomplish that goal. The film was about discovering who she was, and they did a great job of not only that journey but also a great backstory for Fury, a really interesting intro for the skrulls and an amazing 90’s setting which really takes me back. So mission accomplished. You’re focusing on something that isn’t supposed to be there. And the stuff about the chip or her falling and flying at the end worked too but I’m not going to bother with yet. Says you, which I disagree with, just because you think they did a great job doesn't make it so, nor does me thinking differently, I am merely giving my opinion and my thinking about things, but I highly doubt the MCU's first female led superhero was meant to be just ok, and that's what it was imo.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 14, 2019 21:10:44 GMT
It isn’t a problem, because that was never the point. You’re making up a goal of the film and then saying they didn’t accomplish that goal. The film was about discovering who she was, and they did a great job of not only that journey but also a great backstory for Fury, a really interesting intro for the skrulls and an amazing 90’s setting which really takes me back. So mission accomplished. You’re focusing on something that isn’t supposed to be there. And the stuff about the chip or her falling and flying at the end worked too but I’m not going to bother with yet. Says you, which I disagree with, just because you think they did a great job doesn't make it so, nor does me thinking differently, I am merely giving my opinion and my thinking about things, but I highly doubt the MCU's first female led superhero was meant to be just ok, and that's what it was imo. Well hopefully you’ll learn to appreciate it I would hope you’re open to learning what they did so well
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Sept 14, 2019 21:38:17 GMT
Darcy should lead the team Based on...What exactly? Has no powers and no leadership skills.
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Post by thenewnexus on Sept 14, 2019 23:22:19 GMT
Darcy should lead the team Based on...What exactly? Has no powers and no leadership skills. Shes the most intresting character out of the bunch
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Sept 14, 2019 23:32:38 GMT
Based on...What exactly? Has no powers and no leadership skills. Shes the most intresting character out of the bunch You didn't answer my question. Can you?
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