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Post by Vegas on Apr 30, 2017 15:06:10 GMT
- "WHY DOESN'T GOD STOP US FROM RAPING EACH OTHER??!!" - "Well... He will eventually recreate a paradise for everyone who wishes to do good to live in." - "WHAT? LIKE HEAVEN?!! THAT TOTALITARIAN STATE??! YOU'D HAVE NO FREEDOM!! GOD IS THE REAL VILLAIN!!"
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 30, 2017 15:08:54 GMT
cupcakesAgainst my better judgement, but maybe it will help others...SAome of these are too stupid to comment on but I'll work with a couple of the gems. Desire is desire. What desires should he splice in orer for you to be happy? This should be an incredibly easy thing to answer. Would you rather think anything you want or become an automoton? If you would rather be a robot, how would that be happiness for you and a loving thing for God to do? WNo they're not except maybe based on your morals and your morals are entirely irrelevant. If people are in heaven, they have personality, just like angels have personality. That's a stupid statement. Show your intelligence by expounding on it or don;t bother.
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Post by cupcakes on Apr 30, 2017 15:13:27 GMT
tpfkar Except that the overriding themes that permeate it are arbitrary and vicious and immoral even when discounting the overtly bestial, slaughtering, psychopathic parts. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 30, 2017 15:20:02 GMT
- "WHY DOESN'T GOD STOP US FROM RAPING EACH OTHER??!!" - "Well... He will eventually recreate a paradise for everyone who wishes to do good to live in." - "WHAT? LIKE HEAVEN?!! THAT TOTALITARIAN STATE??! YOU'D HAVE NO FREEDOM!! GOD IS THE REAL VILLAIN!!" This is exactly why this argument is stupid. It's just a way for people to vent since they honestly are not interested in learning how God will remove evil while allowing free will which they also want to keep. The moment some goober stars wishing that God would remove their desire to do what they want, then past arguments reveal they are being dishonest to that point. The funny thing is that heaven was like a Wild West in Bible times so it's weird people think that everyone was part of a hive mind.
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Post by cupcakes on Apr 30, 2017 15:23:45 GMT
tpfkar It's what you guys always collapse to. Speaking of your opening line. Were the countless who made it into heaven robots or automatons? Sure, I'll take non-slaughtering, non-narcissistic, non campy torture-porn morals any day. Right, they had "personality", even though they did not "want evil". So the g-man can make them that way when he wants to. I'd rather have you fulminate in pathetically comical irony. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2017 16:00:40 GMT
The open view of the future (including how God interacts with that reality and why he felt it necessary to create that type of reality) adequately addresses the issue for me.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Apr 30, 2017 23:32:48 GMT
Which is exactly what's happening, so it;s silly to fake an argument that God either must do something or not. The argument should only be whether you like what he does or not. If you don't like what he does then that a part of the evil you want God to do away with People cannot have it both ways because if you want him to stop a rapist, then you also want him to stop you from having sex outside of marriage, or lying, or stealing Game of Thrones episodes. Sure, go for broke. This ties in with what I said later on in my previous post, that he could simply create us, sans a desire for evil. The reasons given in Scripture does kind of contradict the notion of both omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence - which is why they are uninteresting all the while Christians do argue for these qualities. Even though the Bible doesn't actually argue for those qualities, but Christians choose to infer them. But why is the rapist's free will more important than that of the rape victim's? The rapist is, after all, interfering with the free will of the victim. If a policeman comes by, he will try to stop the rapist. If it is wrong for God to stop the rapist, logically it would then be wrong for the policeman to do the same. If the tree represented knowledge of good and evil, this means that they did not possess this knowledge from the beginning - "they were naked, but they were not ashamed". In other words, anything they did was excusable, because they did not know any better. Just like if you catch a baby with its hands in the cookie jar, you do not punish the baby - precisely because it couldn't have known it was wrong. The responsibility lies solely with the care taker who left the jar within reach of the baby, and left the baby unsupervised. Neither Adam nor Eve could possibly have known it was wrong to disobey God. They had no reason to believe the serpent was lying (as it turned out, it wasn't lying anyway); no reason to trust God above the serpent. Yes, God was God, but they would not have had the same concept as we do. We have not seen God - he is this huge concept to us, but to them he would have been as trivial as any of the animals in the garden. He was as familiar to their surroundings as anything else, and they were in direct communication with him. But the important thing is still this: In order to know it was wrong to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, they would have to possess the knowledge of that tree. "They were naked, but they were not ashamed." And God's reaction to their covering up because they were naked? "Who told you you were naked?" They now knew it was wrong to be naked (according to Biblical morality, anyway), and it was the knowledge which made them corrupt - not the choice to disobey God, because technically they already disobeyed God by walking around naked. This is the logical consequence of the narrative, because the Tree of Knowledge was the tree of God's knowledge - and God's knowledge told them it was shameful to be naked - thus they covered themselves as soon as they knew. Before eating of that tree, they could do no wrong - because they knew no wrong. Disobeying God was "no wrong" by that same token. Perfection cannot be corrupted - or it isn't perfect. A perfect personality makes perfect choices with perfect accuracy, 100% of the time. The definition of perfect is something flawless - it does not have a single flaw. It will thus never - not ever - make a bad decision. What we are willing or unwilling to give up is not up to us - it is up to God who gave us our nature. It is also a very strange premise, because I am not "giving up" anything by not drinking coffee. I don't want to drink coffee, so my not drinking coffee is zero sacrifice to me. I'm feeling a preposition might be missing here. What do you mean, my desire "isn't tied a condition"? Or what if someone said that drinking one cup of coffee will kill you in 3 days, wouldn't that also simply reinforce the notion of never drinking it?[/quote] But people aren't saying that. And still I don't drink coffee. Eve did it because she had no reason to doubt the serpent. Adam did it because he had no reason to doubt Eve. Indeed, Eve had already eaten of the tree, and Adam could see for himself that she was alive and well. Neither of them had any reason not to eat. Remember: they possessed no mental faculties by which to distinguish good from evil. They had no upbringing whatsoever, and did not know there was such a thing as a "bad" choice. Most people want to not be a victim of evil - why do these desires count for less?
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Post by Karl Aksel on Apr 30, 2017 23:36:35 GMT
- "WHY DOESN'T GOD STOP US FROM RAPING EACH OTHER??!!" - "Well... He will eventually recreate a paradise for everyone who wishes to do good to live in." - "WHAT? LIKE HEAVEN?!! THAT TOTALITARIAN STATE??! YOU'D HAVE NO FREEDOM!! GOD IS THE REAL VILLAIN!!" That isn't how the arguments go. It's more like this: -Why doesn't God prevent murders and rape? -Because he doesn't want to interfere with our free will. -Why not? Why give us the desire to rape and murder in the first place? -WHAT? YOU WANT TO BE LIKE A ROBOT? YOU'D HAVE NO FREEDOM! THAT WOULD MAKE GOD A VILLAIN!
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Post by OldSamVimes on May 1, 2017 0:14:04 GMT
I don't think 'God' makes any distinction between 'good' and 'bad' things here.
I think, to God, the entire creation, life and eventual death of our Universe is as brief and as important as a fart in a bathtub.
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Post by Marv on May 2, 2017 16:21:02 GMT
Has this argument ever convinced anyone? I mean I don't even believe in God but even I don't get convinced that just because He would have the power to intervene means that he must intervene all the time.
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Post by Marv on May 2, 2017 16:21:49 GMT
- "WHY DOESN'T GOD STOP US FROM RAPING EACH OTHER??!!" - "Well... He will eventually recreate a paradise for everyone who wishes to do good to live in." - "WHAT? LIKE HEAVEN?!! THAT TOTALITARIAN STATE??! YOU'D HAVE NO FREEDOM!! GOD IS THE REAL VILLAIN!!" You see how you used caps locks to express outrage. ::wink::
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 16:31:40 GMT
I don't know. We have been given guidelines, maps and free will.Not by the Judeo-Christian god-
Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
Psalm 138:8 The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me;
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
Job 5:12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success.
Psalm 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples.
Psalm 94:11 The Lord knows all human plans; he knows that they are futile.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 2, 2017 16:46:43 GMT
I don't know. We have been given guidelines, maps and free will.Not by the Judeo-Christian god-
Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
Psalm 138:8 The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me;
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
Job 5:12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success.
Psalm 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples.
Psalm 94:11 The Lord knows all human plans; he knows that they are futile.You must have these saved to Notepad.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 16:56:14 GMT
You must have these saved to Notepad. Your point?
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Post by Vegas on May 2, 2017 16:59:56 GMT
- "WHY DOESN'T GOD STOP US FROM RAPING EACH OTHER??!!" - "Well... He will eventually recreate a paradise for everyone who wishes to do good to live in." - "WHAT? LIKE HEAVEN?!! THAT TOTALITARIAN STATE??! YOU'D HAVE NO FREEDOM!! GOD IS THE REAL VILLAIN!!" You see how you used caps locks to express outrage. isn't angry... He has Restless Arm Syndrome... with a facial tic... and he has no volume control.
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Post by johnblutarsky on May 2, 2017 17:01:33 GMT
God has more important things to do, like helping people find their car keys ...or... helping a student pass an algebra exam ...or... allowing his favorite sports teams to win.
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Post by Jillian on May 3, 2017 14:27:59 GMT
Not by the Judeo-Christian god-
Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
Psalm 138:8 The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me;
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
Job 5:12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success.
Psalm 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples.
Psalm 94:11 The Lord knows all human plans; he knows that they are futile.You must have these saved to Notepad. No, thanks, even though I have got a strong faith in good and etc., too strict bible verses are not for me and more often than not they are taken way out of context and too seriously anyway.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 14:52:31 GMT
You must have these saved to Notepad. No, thanks, even though I have got a strong faith in good and etc., too strict bible verses are not for me and more often than not they are taken way out of context and too seriously anyway. I believe your response was meant for me, not CoolJ. In any case... ... what the hell are you talking about?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 22:15:52 GMT
We only make bad choices based on our nature. Our programing, if you will. We cannot choose our own nature and cannot choose which thoughts to think before thinking them, therefore all of our flaws are a direct result of the flaws in God's design. I could only agree with that if we were born and lived alone in the wild. Speaking only from my own experience, I grew up with loving parents (dad died when I was 15) but when I was a child, they made the big decisions for me. When I took more responsibility for my life, I had my parents and others to go to for counsel and to help straighten out my thoughts. Nature contributed to my choices or decisions, but the way I was nurtured also contributed. I could also see how people lived their lives around me. So, with some decisions I thought about how things turned out for people I knew, who had to made the same or similar decision and let what happened to them, inform my decision. There are some decisions that you have to make, for which you have no point of reference. But, even for those decisions, for me anyway, it is still not a matter of giving into my nature. Those are the decisions that I pray over and seek God's guidance on. I can find no flaw in God's design. So your parents, their parents, etc did not have anything in their nature's which they did not choose for themselves? You didn't choose the way you were nurtured either, or how that would affect your later choices. Explain where and how evil and suffering first entered the picture, if not part of God's design.
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Post by camimac on May 4, 2017 1:15:27 GMT
So your parents, their parents, etc did not have anything in their nature's which they did not choose for themselves? You didn't choose the way you were nurtured either, or how that would affect your later choices. Explain where and how evil and suffering first entered the picture, if not part of God's design. I never said that evil and suffering (or allowing evil and suffering) was not a part of God's design.
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