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Post by CrepedCrusader on Apr 29, 2017 16:49:49 GMT
Tired of people trying to have their cake and eat it too. God saved this family from dying in a tornado...but that kid drowned in a well because God doesn't intervene in these matters, so don't blame Him. Pick one and stick with it.
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camimac
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Post by camimac on Apr 29, 2017 17:11:19 GMT
I don't think that it is a matter of God intervening and stopping bad things from happening. In the bible in John 16:33 it states, " These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. So, some of the suffering and trouble we experience, is part of the normal course. We have to go through it. Christ overcame the world. So can we.
Also some of what we go through is because God does give us free will and the trouble we experience is the result of the choices that we make. Some times we are able to change our ways and resolve the trouble. Sometimes we are not. My sister, who has since died of breast cancer, once told me something that has always stayed with me. I don't know if it was particularly profound, or if it is just that I'll always remember it because she said it. But anyway, she said if a person decided to kill himself and threw himself off a tall building; and about halfway down, decided he didn't want to die after all and asked God to forgive him. God would forgive him, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't die anyway. We pay the consequences of the choices that we make.
But, we can gain forgiveness and our souls can be saved.
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Post by Arlon10 on Apr 29, 2017 18:21:05 GMT
Tired of people trying to have their cake and eat it too. God saved this family from dying in a tornado...but that kid drowned in a well because God doesn't intervene in these matters, so don't blame Him. Pick one and stick with it. This is the material world, not the Garden of Eden. Evil happens here. Some of it is obviously by choices made by various creatures. Some of it is the result of the inanimate world having no special regard for us. Tornadoes are not conscious and make no choices. It appears that god does not intervene in the sense of suspending the rules of this material world. For example if you fall off a tall building God will not likely cancel the law of gravity just for you or reach out his "hand" just for you. It also appears though that there are things god will do within the laws of this world like give you special knowledge in a dream that it will be windy the day you go on the roof. Even there though God does not appear focused on individuals. He appears focused on large groups of people who are bound together by paying attention to the clues he allows himself to give. If it comes to deciding between one individual advantage or the group advantage, the group will get the most of the sort of help allowed in this world. It might seem "fair" as we determine fairness or it might seem terribly unfair to us. In the Bible when god deals directly with an individual it is for the general good of his whole people rather than a preference for that individual. In the early days it took working with individuals more than it appears now because there was not yet any great body of people with sufficient training. It is left to us for the most part to make our lives here pleasant. A godly people will have less crime in their communities. Look how far we have come already though; no more human sacrifice, far fewer gang rapes, almost enough social security for retirement and so on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 18:54:03 GMT
If an omnibenevolent God had existed who was also omniscient, then there would be no 'bad'. If it was not possible to have created a harm free environment, then it would have been immoral to have created sentient life, given that the non-existent beings could not have felt deprived of good.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 18:56:57 GMT
I don't think that it is a matter of God intervening and stopping bad things from happening. In the bible in John 16:33 it states, " These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. So, some of the suffering and trouble we experience, is part of the normal course. We have to go through it. Christ overcame the world. So can we. Also some of what we go through is because God does give us free will and the trouble we experience is the result of the choices that we make. Some times we are able to change our ways and resolve the trouble. Sometimes we are not. My sister, who has since died of breast cancer, once told me something that has always stayed with me. I don't know if it was particularly profound, or if it is just that I'll always remember it because she said it. But anyway, she said if a person decided to kill himself and threw himself off a tall building; and about halfway down, decided he didn't want to die after all and asked God to forgive him. God would forgive him, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't die anyway. We pay the consequences of the choices that we make. But, we can gain forgiveness and our souls can be saved. We only make bad choices based on our nature. Our programing, if you will. We cannot choose our own nature and cannot choose which thoughts to think before thinking them, therefore all of our flaws are a direct result of the flaws in God's design.
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camimac
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Post by camimac on Apr 29, 2017 19:11:36 GMT
We only make bad choices based on our nature. Our programing, if you will. We cannot choose our own nature and cannot choose which thoughts to think before thinking them, therefore all of our flaws are a direct result of the flaws in God's design. I could only agree with that if we were born and lived alone in the wild. Speaking only from my own experience, I grew up with loving parents (dad died when I was 15) but when I was a child, they made the big decisions for me. When I took more responsibility for my life, I had my parents and others to go to for counsel and to help straighten out my thoughts. Nature contributed to my choices or decisions, but the way I was nurtured also contributed. I could also see how people lived their lives around me. So, with some decisions I thought about how things turned out for people I knew, who had to made the same or similar decision and let what happened to them, inform my decision. There are some decisions that you have to make, for which you have no point of reference. But, even for those decisions, for me anyway, it is still not a matter of giving into my nature. Those are the decisions that I pray over and seek God's guidance on. I can find no flaw in God's design.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Apr 29, 2017 19:42:43 GMT
We only make bad choices based on our nature. Our programing, if you will. We cannot choose our own nature and cannot choose which thoughts to think before thinking them, therefore all of our flaws are a direct result of the flaws in God's design. I could only agree with that if we were born and lived alone in the wild. Speaking only from my own experience, I grew up with loving parents (dad died when I was 15) but when I was a child, they made the big decisions for me. When I took more responsibility for my life, I had my parents and others to go to for counsel and to help straighten out my thoughts. Nature contributed to my choices or decisions, but the way I was nurtured also contributed. I could also see how people lived their lives around me. So, with some decisions I thought about how things turned out for people I knew, who had to made the same or similar decision and let what happened to them, inform my decision. There are some decisions that you have to make, for which you have no point of reference. But, even for those decisions, for me anyway, it is still not a matter of giving into my nature. Those are the decisions that I pray over and seek God's guidance on. I can find no flaw in God's design. Yes, our personalities are shaped by our upbringing - by our parents, family, friends, society at large. They, too, were similarly shaped. The only one who didn't shape your personality was you - you could only make choices based on the personality you already had. When you were a baby, that personality was pretty much a blank slate, and nature accounted for more of it than nurture. However, as you grew, nurture taught you to behave in certain ways (with nature still pushing you this way or that, via hormones). When you were old enough to take responsibility for your own life, it was only because your surroundings had prepared you for it. Had your parents babied you and sheltered you, never letting you make your own decisions, your own mistakes, it would have taken much, much longer - if ever - for your personality to reach a stage which allowed you to take responsibility for your own actions. You did not choose to be ready, you were conditioned to be ready. And even now, a fully matured adult and then some, it is still true that you do not choose which thoughts to think before thinking them.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 29, 2017 21:34:58 GMT
Why do people pretend that's what the issue is?
Is it only to come up with simplistic false equivalence or is it truly a low IQ issue?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 29, 2017 22:09:12 GMT
Could God microwave a burrito so hot he himself could not eat it? *mind blown*
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Post by Karl Aksel on Apr 29, 2017 22:21:09 GMT
Why do people pretend that's what the issue is? Is it only to come up with simplistic false equivalence or is it truly a low IQ issue? Well, that is what the issue is when discussing the problem of evil: Either God is willing but not able, or able but not willing. It is a logical truth that he cannot be both able and willing.
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Post by THawk on Apr 29, 2017 23:31:59 GMT
Tired of people trying to have their cake and eat it too. God saved this family from dying in a tornado...but that kid drowned in a well because God doesn't intervene in these matters, so don't blame Him. Pick one and stick with it. You're trying to cram one of the biggest questions in the universe into two narrow options. First of all, within the context of heaven, if one is to believe in it - it is the person who has died who is "better off" rather than the one who continues living. So that flips the entire premise 100% on its head. But of course, we do not know that for certain one way or another. I do not believe that God, at least in the way we think of these words, "rewards" someone by saving their physical life and "punishes" someone by taking theirs. However, that does not mean that people are wrong to express gratitude to God when they feel something wonderful has happened to them. It is the opposite - we should be thankful to God every day that we exist, not just when great things happen to us. Every moment is a blessing, whether we see that or not. So while yes, some people's logic may be faulty in situations like that, there is nothing wrong in being thankful for perceived miracles.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 29, 2017 23:43:43 GMT
Why do people pretend that's what the issue is? Is it only to come up with simplistic false equivalence or is it truly a low IQ issue? Well, that is what the issue is when discussing the problem of evil: Either God is willing but not able, or able but not willing. It is a logical truth that he cannot be both able and willing. At best, it's half to issue and a silly one at that. It's the same fake philosopher quote that pops up from time to time. These arguments always start out with what the person thinks of as what is truly evil and then, for some reason, thinks God should be mandated to stop them.
If one doesn't stop something bad that means they are for something bad has never been a truthful statement and especially when it involves us silly humans mandating God to do anything. He can do whatever the heck he wants and it have no bearing on what he is able to do. So that part is stupid in and of itself. However, no one even begins to think what it means for God to prevent the evil things. I need details on what one is willing to lose in order to make sure no one is ever raped.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Apr 30, 2017 8:40:56 GMT
Well, that is what the issue is when discussing the problem of evil: Either God is willing but not able, or able but not willing. It is a logical truth that he cannot be both able and willing. At best, it's half to issue and a silly one at that. It's the same fake philosopher quote that pops up from time to time. These arguments always start out with what the person thinks of as what is truly evil and then, for some reason, thinks God should be mandated to stop them.
If one doesn't stop something bad that means they are for something bad has never been a truthful statement and especially when it involves us silly humans mandating God to do anything. He can do whatever the heck he wants and it have no bearing on what he is able to do. So that part is stupid in and of itself. However, no one even begins to think what it means for God to prevent the evil things. I need details on what one is willing to lose in order to make sure no one is ever raped. Indeed, God may very well have different ideas of what is good and what is evil. But just as God should only consider what he thinks good and evil, so should we consider what we consider good and evil. We cannot do otherwise. If his good is our evil, then we are justified in calling him evil. Likewise, if our good is his evil, then he would be justified in calling us evil. Neither we nor he can be expected to act according to a will not our own. Even if God's view of good and evil matches our's, though, he may still have his reasons for allowing evil. But in that case it is true that he is able, but not willing - he then has his reasons for not being willing. As for what it would take for God to prevent evil things, that is quite simple: recreate the conditions of the Garden of Eden but with better personalities for Adam and Eve. How about not putting the Tree of Knowledge there in the first place, or - if you view the Tree of Knowledge as a metaphor for inherent sin-nature, remove that part of our nature. Do not give us the desire to do evil in the first place. "But then we would be like robots," you might say. Not necessarily, but even if that were the case, so what? Even with the way we are now, we have people who refrain from doing evil, because they have no desire to. Are they robots? Why not take the best of all there were - Enoch, for example - and make everyone like that? Yes, we would then all be the same, but so what? If Enoch was not a robot, then neither would any of the Enoch clones. If you are worried that it would be boring or even drive us mad that there was no variation, that's an easy fix, too: Just add to our nature that we would be happy with this arrangement. If it is important to God that we should love him "of our own free will" (why should that be important to a benevolent being, anyway?), why not create only those personalities who are going to love him "of their own free will"? Just because none exists who would choose otherwise, does not affect the freedom of your choice. I don't drink coffee. I have neither need nor desire for it. I am just as free to drink it, however, as those who simply have to have coffee in the morning. Just as free. But I have zero desire, and so I'm not going to. Am I more of a robot simply for not having that desire?
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Apr 30, 2017 8:50:21 GMT
Tired of people trying to have their cake and eat it too. God saved this family from dying in a tornado...but that kid drowned in a well because God doesn't intervene in these matters, so don't blame Him. Pick one and stick with it. You're trying to cram one of the biggest questions in the universe into two narrow options. First of all, within the context of heaven, if one is to believe in it - it is the person who has died who is "better off" rather than the one who continues living. So that flips the entire premise 100% on its head. But of course, we do not know that for certain one way or another. I do not believe that God, at least in the way we think of these words, "rewards" someone by saving their physical life and "punishes" someone by taking theirs. However, that does not mean that people are wrong to express gratitude to God when they feel something wonderful has happened to them. It is the opposite - we should be thankful to God every day that we exist, not just when great things happen to us. Every moment is a blessing, whether we see that or not. So while yes, some people's logic may be faulty in situations like that, there is nothing wrong in being thankful for perceived miracles. Yeah! God's doing children a favour when he gives them bone cancer cos they'll get to die sooner. Can't people see that? Why can't they look past all the pain and suffering an innocent is going through? We should CELEBRATE random - even painful - deaths cos that's what God wants. Am I right?
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Post by Jillian on Apr 30, 2017 9:22:30 GMT
I don't know. We have been given guidelines, maps and free will. I suppose we have got the key, but it's not being used that well.
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Post by cupcakes on Apr 30, 2017 12:41:02 GMT
tpfkar Definitely a big factor. No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 30, 2017 13:45:14 GMT
Karl AkselWhich is exactly what's happening, so it;s silly to fake an argument that God either must do something or not. The argument should only be whether you like what he does or not. If you don't like what he does then that a part of the evil you want God to do away with People cannot have it both ways because if you want him to stop a rapist, then you also want him to stop you from having sex outside of marriage, or lying, or stealing Game of Thrones episodes. The reasons are evident in Scripture but no one finds that particularly interesting. It's far better to just post verses we don't like and ignore the rest. Regardless of the reason he allows it, one thing is clear...one thing God has always allowed is free will and so as a part of his standards, choice in following his standards was always an option as well as accepting the consequences for not doing so and especially if it was against the people who liked him. There was nothing wrong with Adam & Eve's personality. Sin was not inherent, it was chosen. The Tree of Knowledge was not sin but knowledge. It was the one of only a few rules they had and we have no idea what the overall plan was regarding the two trees. Their personality simply allowed for them to choose to do things. Any perfect personality trait can be warped into a bad one. That's sin. Why bother with personality at all or choice at all? This just goes back to what we are willing to give up to let God handle it. Well, your desire isn't tied a condition though, so there isn't much to think about. If people said that not drinking a cup of coffee would add a hundred years to your life, wouldn't that simply reinforce the notion of never drinking it? Or what if someone said that drinking one cup of coffee will kill you in 3 days, wouldn't that also simply reinforce the notion of never drinking it? That is what describes Adam & Eve's situation. So what happened? Somebody offered Eve a better deal(Not only can you drink coffee, but you'll get a million dollars and live for 200 years!) and her desire led her to be scammed & Adam was worse because he only did it because his smokin hot wife told him to. In any event, God allows evil because a lot of people not only want evil, but think the world is better because of it or at least think they can fix it.
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Post by cupcakes on Apr 30, 2017 14:08:14 GMT
tpfkar It's not what he must do, it is analysis as to whether It is something "good" and Love ® or actually just a narcissistic slaughtering immoral capricious beast. Or he could just not give everyone such desires, as he obviously provides for all those that do make it into heaven. Sure there are "reasons". They are arbitrary, nonsensical, morally corrupt. Sure, some people need boots to lick to the point of fabricating them. Are you suggesting that all the countless that made it into heaven had no "personality"? If people want evil, it's only because god wanted them to want evil. If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Apr 30, 2017 14:50:23 GMT
That needs to be added to the 10 bible verses thread.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 30, 2017 15:03:05 GMT
That needs to be added to the 10 bible verses thread. There are probably a thousand verses that could be added and it still would do nothing to change the remaining 100,000 verses that people ignore often in the same chapter that provide context. Really, I'm surprised you didn't just quote the whole chapter of Deuteronomy 21. There's plenty to get bent out of shape over in that chapter. So you've got a lot of work to do.
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