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Post by Prime etc. on Jul 31, 2020 4:18:23 GMT
Eh, I don't think it was a copout. The point of the episode wasn't what Tony would do if he found out, the point was Melfi wrestling with the choice of whether to tell him or not. She chose not to, and that as they say is "end of story". Him finding out anyway would make the whole thing redundant. Thus a cop out-since they didn't want to address the more complicated dramatics if he did do something and how she would deal with the real deal instead of a hypothetical.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jul 31, 2020 5:15:23 GMT
Eh, I don't think it was a copout. The point of the episode wasn't what Tony would do if he found out, the point was Melfi wrestling with the choice of whether to tell him or not. She chose not to, and that as they say is "end of story". Him finding out anyway would make the whole thing redundant. Thus a cop out-since they didn't want to address the more complicated dramatics if he did do something and how she would deal with the real deal instead of a hypothetical. No, they didn't want to contradict the entire point of the episode. Dom't call it a copout just because you wanted to watch I Spit On Your Grave instead.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jul 31, 2020 7:02:37 GMT
No, they didn't want to contradict the entire point of the episode. Dom't call it a copout just because you wanted to watch I Spit On Your Grave instead. If she told him about the rape, it would have completely negated her relationship with him as a psychiatrist. But that isn't why it is a cop out-- they wanted to tease at the idea she was thinking about it.
If, later, a year later perhaps, he found out from someone else, then they would have had an interesting follow up storyline--but they wouldn't do that because they didn't want to make it seem like Soprano had done a good deed or that vigilante justice for rape victims is a good thing. That is a cop out--they could have done an interesting story where Soprano had done something to impact Melfi's life, positively or negatively. It would have not cancelled the previous episode--it is a series after all so there is no permanent end with an episode's conclusion. There's nothing precious about it.
It's like a situation where you have a dinner party and there are two guests that if they come into contact with each other there will be some kind of dramatic confrontation-and they deliberately keep them apart so as to avoid making it interesting. That's what the Sopranos did with that incident.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jul 31, 2020 7:25:57 GMT
No, they didn't want to contradict the entire point of the episode. Dom't call it a copout just because you wanted to watch I Spit On Your Grave instead. If she told him about the rape, it would have completely negated her relationship with him as a psychiatrist. But that isn't why it is a cop out-- they wanted to tease at the idea she was thinking about it.
If, later, a year later perhaps, he found out from someone else, then they would have had an interesting follow up storyline--but they wouldn't do that because they didn't want to make it seem like Soprano had done a good deed or that vigilante justice for rape victims is a good thing. That is a cop out--they could have done an interesting story where Soprano had done something to impact Melfi's life, positively or negatively. It would have not cancelled the previous episode--it is a series after all so there is no permanent end with an episode's conclusion. There's nothing precious about it.
It's like a situation where you have a dinner party and there are two guests that if they come into contact with each other there will be some kind of dramatic confrontation-and they deliberately keep them apart so as to avoid making it interesting. That's what the Sopranos did with that incident.
Yes, she thought about it. In the end, she chose not to. And that's that. If he just found out anyway, it would make the entire episode and her wrestling with her beliefs pointless. What don't you understand about that? Again, you're conflating what you personally wanted to see happen with what was intended. Not to mention your usual habit of projecting conspiratorial politics on the whole thing.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jul 31, 2020 7:31:42 GMT
Yes, she thought about it. In the end, she chose not to. And that's that. If he just found out anyway, it would make the entire episode and her wrestling with her beliefs pointless. What don't you understand about that? Again, you're conflating what you personally wanted to see happen with what was intended. Not to mention your usual habit of projecting conspiratorial politics on the whole thing. No, it would not make it pointless. It is a series. There is no technical end planned from the get go. Even when the show concluded, they left it open for a continuation (and planned a prequel series).
There's politics in it of course--it is a very liberal show--why do you think they did that gay mobster "Johnny Cakes" story? Because the public demanded it? No. lol
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jul 31, 2020 8:07:18 GMT
Yes, she thought about it. In the end, she chose not to. And that's that. If he just found out anyway, it would make the entire episode and her wrestling with her beliefs pointless. What don't you understand about that? Again, you're conflating what you personally wanted to see happen with what was intended. Not to mention your usual habit of projecting conspiratorial politics on the whole thing. No, it would not make it pointless. It is a series. There is no technical end planned from the get go. Even when the show concluded, they left it open for a continuation (and planned a prequel series).
There's politics in it of course--it is a very liberal show--why do you think they did that gay mobster "Johnny Cakes" story? Because the public demanded it? No. lol
Series' have one-off episodes and storylines, and I had no confusion that was one of them when I saw it. The conflict of it wasn't what Tony would do if he found out. We already know what he would do, and so does Melfi. The conflict was what SHE would do, her with all of her anti-violence rhetoric. She made her choice. Now you want to rob her of that choice and just have Tony find out anyway. How does that not make the episode pointless? The dude is whacked and Melfi gets to keep her hands clean, how convenient. It's like a game show where the host gives you the car no matter what you answer. And if it's a liberal show, then what makes you think they ever considered Super-Tony to the rescue? That would support my belief that the storyline concluded with Melfi not telling Tony, thus no copout.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jul 31, 2020 15:28:41 GMT
And if it's a liberal show, then what makes you think they ever considered Super-Tony to the rescue? Because it doesn't advertise itself as a liberal show-you only find that out as you watch it and scratch your head at the propaganda inserts. The gay mobster storyline could have gone in other directions--like the kid who witnessed him at the construction site being in danger because he knew. They didn't go in that direction because of their politics.
The serial nature of the show makes no "one off" to have any lasting impact because the characters continue.
It's not like I Claudius where there is permanence to actions.
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Post by Marv on Aug 1, 2020 19:39:47 GMT
There were several unresolved plotlines. I think David Chase deliberately wanted some ambiguity on a lot of situations. I thought the Melfi rape was a cop out. They could have had Tony learn about it by some other source and do something, then she is wrestling with her feelings about it after learning the rapist was caught and dealt with (and not necessarily learning through Tony). Instead of the "I really wanted to tell him" story line. They jettisoned the more interesting story angle for the lesser one -- they could have had it both ways. Run the story with her wanting to tell him-and then later he finds out about it through an acquaintance mentioning someone boasting about raping a psychiatrist. It would surely have drawn his curiosity.
agreed. there are a lot of plot threads that are only around for an episode that would benefit from more screen time.
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Post by Prime etc. on Aug 1, 2020 20:02:45 GMT
agreed. there are a lot of plot threads that are only around for an episode that would benefit from more screen time.
I also don't know how relevant the "Cleaver" subplot was in the end.
The biggest WTF in the last episode was how the son's life was quickly turned around so he ends up with a Hollywood job. If it was satire it was lost on me.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Aug 1, 2020 22:40:41 GMT
And if it's a liberal show, then what makes you think they ever considered Super-Tony to the rescue? Because it doesn't advertise itself as a liberal show-you only find that out as you watch it and scratch your head at the propaganda inserts. The gay mobster storyline could have gone in other directions--like the kid who witnessed him at the construction site being in danger because he knew. They didn't go in that direction because of their politics. The serial nature of the show makes no "one off" to have any lasting impact because the characters continue. It's not like I Claudius where there is permanence to actions. But no matter when you personally caught on, the supposed liberal politics would have always been there, thus they didn't abandon the storyline or copout. They simply wanted to stick to their - and Melfi's - anti-violent guns. I'm not saying it was impossible to explore the rape storyline further, but they DID resolve it, just not to your satisfaction. You're talking hypothetical scenarios where Tony could have found out another way and whatnot. If you have to invent ways to keep the storyline going, it wasn't copped out on.
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Post by Prime etc. on Aug 1, 2020 23:21:37 GMT
But no matter when you personally caught on, the supposed liberal politics would have always been there, thus they didn't abandon the storyline or copout. They simply wanted to stick to their - and Melfi's - anti-violent guns. I'm not saying it was impossible to explore the rape storyline further, but they DID resolve it, just not to your satisfaction. You're talking hypothetical scenarios where Tony could have found out another way and whatnot. If you have to invent ways to keep the storyline going, it wasn't copped out on. The show would claim it is neutral-not liberal. If it advertised its politics people wouldn't watch. They teased at him finding out--dangling it and the dramatic possibilities. The violence in the show was never glamorous--it was usually shocking and unexpected. One did not celebrate the violence.
But it is like they invited two argumentative people to a party, they let everyone know they were attending, and then kept them apart. That is what the episode did. They didnt have to-especially since Tony Soprano is the main character not her-she leaves the series before it ends (a rather unceremonious end too-did Elliot know about the study on psychopaths and not mention it before-or did he recently know about it? They way he brings it up seemed like he just decided enough was enough and they should pull the plug--why he did it as he did I don't understand-he didn't have to do it in front of the guests).
The show is ultimately about him and his reactions to things.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Aug 2, 2020 0:27:37 GMT
But no matter when you personally caught on, the supposed liberal politics would have always been there, thus they didn't abandon the storyline or copout. They simply wanted to stick to their - and Melfi's - anti-violent guns. I'm not saying it was impossible to explore the rape storyline further, but they DID resolve it, just not to your satisfaction. You're talking hypothetical scenarios where Tony could have found out another way and whatnot. If you have to invent ways to keep the storyline going, it wasn't copped out on. The show would claim it is neutral-not liberal. If it advertised its politics people wouldn't watch. They teased at him finding out--dangling it and the dramatic possibilities. The violence in the show was never glamorous--it was usually shocking and unexpected. One did not celebrate the violence.
But it is like they invited two argumentative people to a party, they let everyone know they were attending, and then kept them apart. That is what the episode did. They didnt have to-especially since Tony Soprano is the main character not her-she leaves the series before it ends (a rather unceremonious end too-did Elliot know about the study on psychopaths and not mention it before-or did he recently know about it? They way he brings it up seemed like he just decided enough was enough and they should pull the plug--why he did it as he did I don't understand-he didn't have to do it in front of the guests).
The show is ultimately about him and his reactions to things.
So basically the show gave you a revenge boner and blue balled you. Perhaps you even took offense to an episode about Melfi and not about the alpha male lead saving her from the train tracks, despite the fact that there are lots of episodes about the supporting characters. Why can't you just admit it's not a copout or dropped storyline and simply you not getting what you personally wanted to see? I'm not arguing the show isn't liberal, I'm asking you why if that is the case would Chase ever entertain the idea of revisiting the storyline just to give it a bloodthirsty payoff and make Tony a superhero? As you said, the show doesn't celebrate violence. Melfi, arguably the moral center of the show, indeed teased the idea telling Tony, but for the millionth time, chose not to. Her (and the show) stuck their ground, and I'm sorry you realized too late what that ground was. You're free to dislike it, but your reasoning is disingenuous. The way she quit at the end felt rushed, I agree with you there.
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Post by Prime etc. on Aug 2, 2020 1:09:23 GMT
So basically the show gave you a revenge boner and blue balled you. I said the violence is meant to be shocking not glamorous. Why would you assume I wanted it to be glamorous? I think they were often hypocrites about the violence--they used it for dramatic effect--nihilistic effect--which suited their politics. Perhaps they got some thrills from Frank Vincent's head being crushed by a baby since he killed the gay mafia guy. The entire concept of the show is subversive--making us intimate with mostly unlikable characters--unlike I,Claudius, where we are meant to have some sympathies for them.
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Post by Marv on Aug 11, 2020 18:28:46 GMT
Just finished the series...I gotta say, AJ as a character becomes all over the place by the final season. I really don't know what they were going for with him. The final episode alone has him go from depressed to wanting to join the army to reverting to his spoiled normal self. I don't know why we waste so much time on him.
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Post by Vits on Aug 16, 2020 9:52:03 GMT
Just finished the series...I gotta say, AJ as a character becomes all over the place by the final season. I really don't know what they were going for with him. The final episode alone has him go from depressed to wanting to join the army to reverting to his spoiled normal self. I don't know why we waste so much time on him. A person finished watching this show and the first thing they talk about is not the final scene? I think that's a first.
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Post by Marv on Aug 16, 2020 10:50:47 GMT
Just finished the series...I gotta say, AJ as a character becomes all over the place by the final season. I really don't know what they were going for with him. The final episode alone has him go from depressed to wanting to join the army to reverting to his spoiled normal self. I don't know why we waste so much time on him. A person finished watching this show and the first thing they talk about is not the final scene? I think that's a first. I’ve seen it before.
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Post by Prime etc. on Aug 21, 2020 20:32:10 GMT
One of the best scenes I remember is the show where Tony gets the idea that his crew are only laughing at his jokes to ass kiss-so he deliberately says something unfunny to watch their expressions, and we see them grotesquely laughing for no reason in slow motion.
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Post by Marv on Aug 22, 2020 3:51:09 GMT
One of the best scenes I remember is the show where Tony gets the idea that his crew are only laughing at his jokes to ass kiss-so he deliberately says something unfunny to watch their expressions, and we see them grotesquely laughing for no reason in slow motion. Yup. All except Feech. Feech didn’t give a sh-t who Tony was.
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Post by Prime etc. on Aug 22, 2020 9:00:02 GMT
Yup. All except Feech. Feech didn’t give a sh-t who Tony was. I forgot who he was-Robert Loggia. He wasn't in it too long--back to prison for him!
Burt Young I also recall as a hit man with bronchitis.
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Post by Marv on Aug 22, 2020 14:47:08 GMT
Yup. All except Feech. Feech didn’t give a sh-t who Tony was. I forgot who he was-Robert Loggia. He wasn't in it too long--back to prison for him!
Burt Young I also recall as a hit man with bronchitis.
Yea Feech was only in like 4 episodes...Bobby Bacalla Sr. (Burt Young) i think was only in 1 episode. Watching it back theres a lot of little cameos from recognizable actors and actresses.
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