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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 19, 2021 22:48:33 GMT
The almost universal consensus is that the Snyder Cut is the superior version, but can anyone think of things they preferred in the theatrical version (outside of it being shorter)? For me, the only one I can even remotely think of is that Superman feels more significant in Whedon’s version, but even that comes at the expense of making the rest of the team seem completely useless.
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Post by hobowar on Mar 19, 2021 23:05:51 GMT
The only redeeming scene from either cut.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Mar 19, 2021 23:56:08 GMT
Sure, the TC makes Superman look way more useful than the rest, but that's kind of the point of both versions. Him not being there is the reason the bad guys invaded when they did, and the JLA decide bringing him back is the only way to win. Only in one version, it's like everyone but Lois has forgotten he existed and he doesn't actually do much after he's resurrected.
There were also a couple fun or cute moments I missed, like Aquaman sitting on the lasso or the Pet Semetary gags.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 20, 2021 4:17:57 GMT
There's less slow motion for one. Less redundant scenes as well. And as was already mentioned, Superman was more Supermany in the theatrical cut.
And though the pacing in the theatrical cut was jarring at times, I still think it was less dragging.
Other than that, Snyder cut did everything better. My major complaint about the Snyder cut is that it's not as good as a lot of the reviews are making it out to be.
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tavaresmd
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Post by tavaresmd on Mar 20, 2021 12:38:52 GMT
I like the Snyder Cut much, much better overall. But at a script level, I think Whedon had a few good ideas (shame his direction let those ideas down)
-Superman gets little charater moments with most of the members of the League (If I remember correctly, all of them except for Aquaman). I was dissapointed that Snyder's Superman came in, gave a mediocre line and didn't speak with any of them again (except for the bank scene)
-I liked having Batman be the one to have Lois Lane ready for Superman's return. It was a very Batman moment and sets up a possible Tower of Babel storyline
-The "Clark was more human than I am" scene. Great writing from Whedon and acting from Affleck. Shame it was shot on that ugly set
-Batman overall seemed a little too hopeful in the Snyder Cut. I get that's the character arc Snyder was going for with all the "faith" lines. But it just seemed lile too quick a change from the character we saw in BvS. Whedon's Batman was a little more skeptical and pessimistic which is how I see Batman. I also got more of a sense that he was still getting back used to working with others. If the Snyder Cut made him struggle more. I feel thatBatman/Joker scene would have been more thematically relevant to the film. A shame he was also made inmensely stupid and the butt of many jokes in the Whedon cut.
-This one I'm a little mixed on, but I liked hearing Wonder Woman's BvS theme on the shot that introduces her in Whedon's cut, and Danny Elfman's arrangement is one of the few things I liked about his score. Still loved the new theme, and overall the scene is much better in Snyder's
-The Flash/Superman race
-Whedon tried to include a classic Batman scene on the Gotham rooftops. I didn't love the execution but it was a nice idea. In Snyder's version it's almlst 2 hours in before we see Batman in costume (apart from the BvS flashback)
- The humans turning to Parademons scene (which I'm almost sure has to be a Snyder shot he didn't include in his cut. It's very Snyder-y)
-The "Everybody Knows" montage did a better job of selling the "World Without A Superman" concept. Apart from the Martha/Martian line about seeing the symbol everywhere I didn't feel it much in Snyder's
-"Icky Thump" fit the vibe of Aquaman drinking and walking into the ocean better than Snyder's slower, moodier song. I like the longer version of the scene better overall, though
From this list it might seem I'm a Whedon cut fan, but overall I'd rate it a 4.5 and the Snyder cut a 8.5
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Post by dazz on Mar 20, 2021 14:03:37 GMT
I like the Snyder Cut muvh, much better overall. But at a script level, I think Whedon had a few good ideas (shame his direction let those ideas down) -Superman gets little charater moments with most of the members of the League (If I remember correctly, all of them except for Aquaman). I was dissapointed that Snyder's Superman came in, gave a mediocre line and didn't speak with any of them again (except for the bank scene) -I liked having Batman be the one to have Lois Lane ready for Superman's return. It was a very Batman moment and sets up a possible Tower of Babel storyline -The "Clark was more human than I am" scene. Great writing from Whedon and sctimg from Affleck. Shame it was shot on that ugly set -Batman overall seemed a little too hopeful in the Snyder Cut. I get that's the character Snyder was going for with all the "faith" lines. But it just seemed lile tol quick a change from the character we saw in BvS. Whedon's Batman was a little more skeptical and pessimistic which is how I see Batman. A shame he was also made inmensely stupid and the butt of many jokes. -This one I'm a little mixed on, but I liked hearing Wonder Woman's BvS theme on the shot that introduces her in Whedon's cut, and Danny Elfman's arrangement is one of the few things I liked about his score. Still loved the new theme, and overall the scene is much better in Snyder's -The Flash/Superman race -Whedon tried to include a classic Batman scene on the Gotham rooftops. I didn't love the execution but it was a nice idea. In Snyder's version it's almlst 2 hours in before we see Batman in costume (apart from the BvS flashback) - The humans turning to Parademons scene (which I'm almost sure has to be a Snyder shot he didn't include in his cut. It's very Snyder-y) -The "Everybody Knows" montage did a better job of selling the "World Without A Superman" concept. Apart from the Martha/Martian line about seeing the symbol everywhere I didn't feel it much in Snyder's -"Icky Thump" fit the vibe of Aquaman drinking and walking into the ocean better than Snyder's slower, moodier song. I like the longer version of the scene better overall, though From this list it might seem I'm a Whedon cut fan, but overall I'd rate it a 4.5 and the Snyder cut a 8.5 Very much my thoughts exactly. except i rate the TC a 5.5-6/10 and the SC an 8-8.5/10.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Mar 20, 2021 20:53:42 GMT
I like the Snyder Cut much, much better overall. But at a script level, I think Whedon had a few good ideas (shame his direction let those ideas down) -Superman gets little charater moments with most of the members of the League (If I remember correctly, all of them except for Aquaman). I was dissapointed that Snyder's Superman came in, gave a mediocre line and didn't speak with any of them again (except for the bank scene) -I liked having Batman be the one to have Lois Lane ready for Superman's return. It was a very Batman moment and sets up a possible Tower of Babel storyline -The "Clark was more human than I am" scene. Great writing from Whedon and acting from Affleck. Shame it was shot on that ugly set -Batman overall seemed a little too hopeful in the Snyder Cut. I get that's the character arc Snyder was going for with all the "faith" lines. But it just seemed lile too quick a change from the character we saw in BvS. Whedon's Batman was a little more skeptical and pessimistic which is how I see Batman. I also got more of a sense that he was still getting back used to working with others. If the Snyder Cut made him struggle more. I feel thatBatman/Joker scene would have been more thematically relevant to the film. A shame he was also made inmensely stupid and the butt of many jokes in the Whedon cut. -This one I'm a little mixed on, but I liked hearing Wonder Woman's BvS theme on the shot that introduces her in Whedon's cut, and Danny Elfman's arrangement is one of the few things I liked about his score. Still loved the new theme, and overall the scene is much better in Snyder's -The Flash/Superman race -Whedon tried to include a classic Batman scene on the Gotham rooftops. I didn't love the execution but it was a nice idea. In Snyder's version it's almlst 2 hours in before we see Batman in costume (apart from the BvS flashback) - The humans turning to Parademons scene (which I'm almost sure has to be a Snyder shot he didn't include in his cut. It's very Snyder-y) -The "Everybody Knows" montage did a better job of selling the "World Without A Superman" concept. Apart from the Martha/Martian line about seeing the symbol everywhere I didn't feel it much in Snyder's -"Icky Thump" fit the vibe of Aquaman drinking and walking into the ocean better than Snyder's slower, moodier song. I like the longer version of the scene better overall, though From this list it might seem I'm a Whedon cut fan, but overall I'd rate it a 4.5 and the Snyder cut a 8.5 I was pretty set in my belief that Batman was handled better in the Snyder Cut - he actually holds his own in the fights rather than just being the group's soccer mom/Daphne for one - but you make some interesting points. Having Lois ready is 100% a Batman moment, and even ties back to the Knightmare scene. Hot take, but I also liked the callback to "Do you bleed?". In a way, Whedon's version is a better sequel to BvS than the actual director's. Not to mention as a concluding chapter to a Superman trilogy. A lot of what you say reinforces just how indifferent TSC is to Superman. Does he really only have one line in the entire climax? Jesus. On that note, yeah, I missed the Superman/Flash race.
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tavaresmd
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Post by tavaresmd on Mar 20, 2021 21:37:41 GMT
I was pretty set in my belief that Batman was handled better in the Snyder Cut - he actually holds his own in the fights rather than just being the group's soccer mom/Daphne for one - but you make some interesting points. Having Lois ready is 100% a Batman moment, and even ties back to the Knightmare scene. Hot take, but I also liked the callback to "Do you bleed?". In a way, Whedon's version is a better sequel to BvS than the actual director's. Not to mention as a concluding chapter to a Superman trilogy. A lot of what you say reinforces just how indifferent TSC is to Superman. Does he really only have one line in the entire climax? Jesus. On that note, yeah, I missed the Superman/Flash race. I overall do like Snyder's Batman better. The fights of course were much better. But also, Affleck seems more engaged in his performance. And Whedon truly had some terrible jokes at Batman's expense. Also Batman theorizing that the motherboxes had money in them. I just think that Whedon's Batman was more set uo for a long form universe (which is what Whedon does), while Snyder is preparing Batman for his arc(which supposedly was 2 more films). Snyder's Batman arc in these 2 movies seems to be a metaphor for an atheist embrscing religion. And I think that's why he made him much more hopeful. It's not bad. It's just a Batman that's very in tune with the themes of Snyder's work. Joss Whedon has a style (with the quips) but I think he still tries to skew closer to the comic characters (when he's able to with the template of Snyder's, and in the case of the MCU, previous movies). Snyder isn't afraid to change them to fit the story he wants to tell. I kinda like the "Do You Bleed?" callback, but it kinda breaks the impression that Superman is not conscious. You can do mental gymnastics and say he said it on instinct. But I don't know, I'm mixed And yeah I didn't believe it the first time but I rewatched the climax and "not impressed" is his only line. Probably my biggest dissapointment in the film. Especially after such an awesome builduo to his return with the kryptonian ship scene
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 20, 2021 21:47:37 GMT
The theatrical version of JL does feel more like a Superman story, which is ironic, since the marketing went out of its way to avoid showing him. With that said, the “Do you bleed?” callback doesn’t really work. As tavaresmd said, it breaks the impression that Superman is “confused” and “doesn’t know who he is” as Wonder Woman puts it. It’s also jarring when you consider how Superman is characterized in the rest of the film. It seems like it was basically just there for the sake of a joke from Batman, and also probably so Whedon could take a shot at Snyder.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Mar 20, 2021 21:56:29 GMT
I was pretty set in my belief that Batman was handled better in the Snyder Cut - he actually holds his own in the fights rather than just being the group's soccer mom/Daphne for one - but you make some interesting points. Having Lois ready is 100% a Batman moment, and even ties back to the Knightmare scene. Hot take, but I also liked the callback to "Do you bleed?". In a way, Whedon's version is a better sequel to BvS than the actual director's. Not to mention as a concluding chapter to a Superman trilogy. A lot of what you say reinforces just how indifferent TSC is to Superman. Does he really only have one line in the entire climax? Jesus. On that note, yeah, I missed the Superman/Flash race. I overall do like Snyder's Batman better. The fights of course were much better. But also, Affleck seems more engaged in his performance. And Whedon truly had some terrible jokes at Batman's expense. Also Batman theorizing that the motherboxes had money in them. I just think that Whedon's Batman was more set uo for a long form universe (which is what Whedon does), while Snyder is preparing Batman for his arc(which supposedly was 2 more films). Snyder's Batman arc in these 2 movies seems to be a metaphor for an atheist embrscing religion. And I think that's why he made him much more hopeful. It's not bad. It's just a Batman that's very in tune with the themes of Snyder's work I kinda like the "Do You Bleed?" callback, but it kinda breaks the impression that Superman is not conscious. You can do mental gymnastics and say he said it on instinct. But I don't know, I'm mixed And yeah I didn't believe it the first time but I rewatched the climax and "not impressed" is his only line. Probably my biggest dissapointment in the film. Especially after such an awesome builduo to his return with the kryptonian ship scene Whedon being a comic book guy (and Snyder being a guy who by his own admission didn't like comics until he saw tits and blood in Watchmen), I think he probably likes and understands these characters better even if his sense of humor runs away with him (+ the time constraint getting it to 2 hours). I see the atheism metaphor, though. Snyder is obviously very preoccupied in making Superman God, which sometimes comes at the expense of Clark's personality and humanity. That's why the "he was more human that I was" speech probably wouldn't fly. From the opening "cell phone" scene, Whedon was making a concerted effort to relate Superman as a person. Well, seeing Lois triggered memories for Clark, so we can infer seeing Bats triggered some - just not the right ones. But hey, seeing the black suit was kinda cool. If only we got that mullet.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Mar 20, 2021 22:27:37 GMT
The theatrical version of JL does feel more like a Superman story, which is ironic, since the marketing went out of its way to avoid showing him. With that said, the “Do you bleed?” callback doesn’t really work. As tavaresmd said, it breaks the impression that Superman is “confused” and “doesn’t know who he is” as Wonder Woman puts it. It’s also jarring when you consider how Superman is characterized in the rest of the film. It seems like it was basically just there for the sake of a joke from Batman, and also probably so Whedon could take a shot at Snyder. Piggybacking off of my reply to them, I really don't think it was a "shot". It is kind of weird how none of their history in BvS is referenced in the Snyder Cut...I mean, Batman tried to murder the guy once. Whedon comes from ongoing serial television, while Snyder crafts scenes that sometimes don't even feel connected to the one that came before, so I think the former was just trying to create a stronger sense of continuity. Lois was not the only person there with history with Clark. Aside from a very brief interaction with Diana, Clark didn't know any of those strange people. Seeing Batman is the first trigger of his past, and you can see the wheels turning in his head and memories coming back when he says the line. Seeing Lois completed the puzzle. He has no reason to go around chokeholding people afterward.
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tavaresmd
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Post by tavaresmd on Mar 20, 2021 23:01:35 GMT
Snyder is obviously very preoccupied in making Superman God, which sometimes comes at the expense of Clark's personality and humanity. That's why the "he was more human that I was" speech probably wouldn't fly. From the opening "cell phone" scene, Whedon was making a concerted effort to relate Superman as a person. This train of thought I think is key to seeing the difference in both director's approach to the ressurection. In Snyder's version the motivation for bringing Superman back is purely his strenght. There's a line in SC "I've never seen a being that strong" "Maybe one". While in Whedon's version Batman's main motivation seems to be getting back Superman as a leader, and as a person. In Snyder's Alfred and Batman talk about Superman through a metaphor about waving a cape at a bull, dehumanizing the charactet, and highlighting his utility as a blunt instrument I think Batman wanting Superman as a leader is kinda cool as it highlights that being a leader for the JL is not a natural feeling for Batman, he feels uncomfortable. He also tries tp get Diana to step up a few times. Comparing that first line from Snyder's to Whedon's "The world needs Superman and the League needs Clark" I think sums up the difference Whedon also seems more preocuppied with the ethical dilemma and the metaphysics of the soul in relation to resurrection (a issue he also adressed in Buffy S6) From Alfred pointing out that Superman might not want to come back, to Diana's concern that they might raise a monster, and even seemingly throwaway jokes such as Flash's Pet Cemetary namedrop reinforce this theme. Whedon's also adresses the fact that he was in fact dead, and how the ressurection feels (even if through a stupid joke "itchy" In Snyder's the only one who seems to ponder this ethical conundrum is Aquaman, and he's paid little attention. In Snyder's mind if Superman is christ, of course he should be ressurected, it's in his nature. In both versions I'm a little puzzled they didn't use Cyborg to adress the ethics, as he seems like someone who would have something to say about against your will ressurections. In general, apart from being hideously shot, I found the ethics discussion in Whedon's intersting until it devolved into Batman and Wonder Woman acting like petty adolescents (but Whedon does come from teen dramas) Reflecting on this, I realize that in a way Josstice League is not just a studio hackjob, but a filmmaker trying to tell a story with themes that are important to him. Whedon can be a writer with a keen insight into character's mind. I'm sure if he didn't have to shoehorn his ideas into another movie (and also allow his personal distaste for these versions of the characters to color his judgement) he could write compelling versions of these characters. Goes to show it's not a good idea to make a filmmaker make his movie from the skeleton of another's
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 20, 2021 23:27:49 GMT
Snyder has always been a bit too preoccupied focusing on showing the world just how powerful and badass Superman is without putting much effort into showing how human Superman can be. This was the case even as early as MOS.
Sure he made him mope around and emote and stuff, but it was always from the perspective of "a god who struggles to live in the world of men" rather than "a man who's struggling because he's different from others".
Snyder views Superman with a saviour and god complex, which is why he never quite got the character right.
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tavaresmd
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Post by tavaresmd on Mar 20, 2021 23:31:43 GMT
It is kind of weird how none of their history in BvS is referenced in the Snyder Cut...I mean, Batman tried to murder the guy once. afterward. That's an interesting point I hadn't considered. But then again, Snyder rarely seems interested in Superman's interactions with people apart from the "2 special ladies in his life" (as Lex Luthor put it in BvS). I suppose it's to reinforce the Mary, Mother Of Jesus and Mary Magdalena angle. For this reason, the final shot of the League standing together rings a little hollow in the SC. He's at the center of them and it's supposed to be a powerful team shot. But most of the other characters could barely be called acquaintances, let alone friends. The only one he's had any menaningful interaction is Batman and even then it was short and mostly negative. The only time that Superman has any dialogue interaction with another JL member is the "I bought the bank" scene, which came a little out of left field for me in the SC. I think it fit in Whedon's a little better
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 20, 2021 23:54:32 GMT
It is unfortunate that the Snyder Cut doesn’t really allow Superman to properly interact with the other members of the team, but besides that, I much prefer the team dynamic in that version over Whedon’s version. Whedon was obviously trying really hard to replicate the team dynamic of the Avengers movies, but I just don’t like it. There’s almost no unnecessary friction between the team in Snyder’s version, which is refreshing.
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Post by tavaresmd on Mar 20, 2021 23:56:49 GMT
It is unfortunate that the Snyder Cut doesn’t really allow Superman to properly interact with the other members of the team, but besides that, I much prefer the team dynamic in that version over Whedon’s version. Whedon was obviously trying really hard to replicate the team dynamic of the Avengers movies, but I just don’t like it. There’s almost no unnecessary friction between the team in Snyder’s version, which is refreshing. I can agree with that. I liked that Whedon's version discussed the ethics of the ressurection. But it felt very forced how aggresive that discussion got. Especially with 2 characters such as Batman and Wonder Woman who should be the most mature members of the team at that point
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Post by twothousandonemark on Mar 21, 2021 0:41:22 GMT
Theatrical probably synced more literally with Batman vs. Superman, which matters not for me because I've disowned that trash & all the rest of the DCEU.
For me, ZSJL is now a Watchmen style treatment of DC heroes, & it's pretty glorious.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 21, 2021 1:53:35 GMT
It is unfortunate that the Snyder Cut doesn’t really allow Superman to properly interact with the other members of the team, but besides that, I much prefer the team dynamic in that version over Whedon’s version. Whedon was obviously trying really hard to replicate the team dynamic of the Avengers movies, but I just don’t like it. There’s almost no unnecessary friction between the team in Snyder’s version, which is refreshing. I can agree with that. I liked that Whedon's version discussed the ethics of the ressurection. But it felt very forced how aggresive that discussion got. Especially with 2 characters such as Batman and Wonder Woman who should be the most mature members of the team at that point To be fair with Whedon, if he was allowed a 4 hour movie that ethics discussion probably would have been handled more organically.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 21, 2021 2:08:05 GMT
I can agree with that. I liked that Whedon's version discussed the ethics of the ressurection. But it felt very forced how aggresive that discussion got. Especially with 2 characters such as Batman and Wonder Woman who should be the most mature members of the team at that point To be fair with Whedon, if he was allowed a 4 hour movie that ethics discussion probably would have been handled more organically. If he needed more time for an ethical discussion, he probably shouldn’t have wasted so much time on that pointless Russian family.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Mar 21, 2021 2:43:17 GMT
For me, ZSJL is now a Watchmen style treatment of DC heroes, & it's pretty glorious. Watchmen? It didn't really play with the genre or have any deep subtext or political allegory or anything, and that's something I appreciated about it. Snyder working entirely in his wheelhouse of big, loud action.
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