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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 18:37:05 GMT
Read my timelines: it's not a time loop at all. The three Apes altered the past and created a new timeline.
The retconning was referred to the "humanoid" aspect of the Apes. It seemed that it was normal, even for the 20th century's canons (ESCAPE is set in 1973). PLANET makes you think that the Apes look "humanoid" as effect of alien evolution/nuclear mutation.
Well, I'd need to watch them again to confirm what you are saying. Perhaps I just didn't get that impression or missed something when watching Escape. from memory I thought the apes went back in time and the movie is saying that it is because they went back in time they are what caused the whatever is in the original, but I haven't seen the sequels from after that. I assumed that the nuclear explosion is a result of something the apes do in the sequels after Escape. Again, I'd need to watch all of them to be sure.
No, the Nuclear War was going to happen at the end of the 20th century, regardless from the Humanoid Apes. In both the timelines... They (Cornelius and Zira) went back in time, conceived Caesar, and Caesar generated a "better" Planet of the Apes where humans and Apes co-exist peacefully (after the events of BATTLE). As simple as that, the events of ESCAPE, CONQUEST and BATTLE never occurred in the original timeline.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 18:39:48 GMT
Is that specifically stated and I just don't remember or is it something people just assume? If it isn't specifically stated then Escape doesn't necessarily retcon anything.
Well, people are just surprised that they can talk. Their appearance is not considered as unusual by anyone. ESCAPE esplicitly shows humanoid apes (them) and "normal" apes co-existing in the same universe.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 8, 2021 18:40:22 GMT
Well, I'd need to watch them again to confirm what you are saying. Perhaps I just didn't get that impression or missed something when watching Escape. from memory I thought the apes went back in time and the movie is saying that it is because they went back in time they are what caused the whatever is in the original, but I haven't seen the sequels from after that. I assumed that the nuclear explosion is a result of something the apes do in the sequels after Escape. Again, I'd need to watch all of them to be sure.
No, the Nuclear War was going to happen at the end of the 20th century, regardless from the Humanoid Apes. In both the timelines... They (Cornelius and Zira) went back in time, conceived Caesar, and Caesar generated a "better" Planet of the Apes where humans and Apes co-exist peacefully (after the events of BATTLE). As simple as that, the events of ESCAPE, CONQUEST and BATTLE never occurred in the original timeline.
I guess I'll just have to take your word on that. I always get very confused when time travel stuff is in movies.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 18:41:44 GMT
No, the Nuclear War was going to happen at the end of the 20th century, regardless from the Humanoid Apes. In both the timelines... They (Cornelius and Zira) went back in time, conceived Caesar, and Caesar generated a "better" Planet of the Apes where humans and Apes co-exist peacefully (after the events of BATTLE). As simple as that, the events of ESCAPE, CONQUEST and BATTLE never occurred in the original timeline.
I guess I'll just have to take your word on that. I always get very confused when time travel stuff is in movies.
TERMINATOR is the most confusing one by sure, because in T1 there was a "fixed" time loop, and it turns into an alterable timeline in T2.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 8, 2021 18:41:45 GMT
Is that specifically stated and I just don't remember or is it something people just assume? If it isn't specifically stated then Escape doesn't necessarily retcon anything.
Well, people are just surprised that they can talk. Their appearance is not considered as unusual by anyone. ESCAPE esplicitly shows humanoid apes (them) and "normal" apes co-existing in the same universe.
I am so confused. I don't recall any other humanoid apes in Escape besides the 3 that go back in time.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 18:44:54 GMT
Well, people are just surprised that they can talk. Their appearance is not considered as unusual by anyone. ESCAPE esplicitly shows humanoid apes (them) and "normal" apes co-existing in the same universe.
I am so confused. Forget it. Watch the movie again.
There are "normal" chimps in the circus, at the end. Cornelius, Zira and Dr. Milo not only can talk, but they got an "humanoid" appearance: they are bigger, taller and can walk normally --- they look like bigfoots.
In CONQUEST, you can see hundreds of "Humanoid Apes", and they are considered "normal apes" in that universe.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 8, 2021 18:51:39 GMT
I am so confused. Forget it. Watch the movie again.
There are "normal" chimps in the circus, at the end. Cornelius, Zira and Dr. Milo not only can talk, but they got an "humanoid" appearance: they are bigger, taller and can walk normally --- they look like bigfoots.
In CONQUEST, you can see hundreds of "Humanoid Apes", and they are considered "normal apes" in that universe.
Fair enough. Maybe I am just really misremembering the movie. You can't expect everyone to have just watched these movies and then just trust that you are conveying the events of the movie accurately. Sorry. Maybe another big fan can confirm what you are saying and then I will accept it. This is what I am confused about in what you are saying. Of course the 3 that travelled back in time are humanoid. I don't get your point. You can't bring up Conquest btw, because that was made after Escape.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 19:04:47 GMT
Watch the movie again.
There are "normal" chimps in the circus, at the end. Cornelius, Zira and Dr. Milo not only can talk, but they got an "humanoid" appearance: they are bigger, taller and can walk normally --- they look like bigfoots.
In CONQUEST, you can see hundreds of "Humanoid Apes", and they are considered "normal apes" in that universe.
Fair enough. Maybe I am just really misremembering the movie. You can't expect everyone to have just watched these movies and then just trust that you are conveying the events of the movie accurately. Sorry. Maybe another big fan can confirm what you are saying and then I will accept it. This is what I am confused about in what you are saying. Of course the 3 that travelled back in time are humanoid. I don't get your point. You can't bring up Conquest btw, because that was made after Escape.
Relax, man. Not pretending anything from anyone at all: I watched the movies millions of times and love to discuss them with people.
CONQUEST belongs to the very same continuity of ESCAPE. CONQUEST is set in 1991.
As simple as that, no human is surprised by the appearance of the "Humanoid Apes" in either 1973 and 1991. They are considered as being "normal apes" in that universe. Anyway, ESCAPE features real chimps (not actors in make-up) at the very end, thus we can firmly say that: humanoid apes are a simian species "normally" existing in that universe along with what we consider "normal apes". That's it.
Read my website, it's a fun read.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 8, 2021 19:05:10 GMT
I am so confused. Forget it. Watch the movie again.
There are "normal" chimps in the circus, at the end. Cornelius, Zira and Dr. Milo not only can talk, but they got an "humanoid" appearance: they are bigger, taller and can walk normally --- they look like bigfoots.
In CONQUEST, you can see hundreds of "Humanoid Apes", and they are considered "normal apes" in that universe.
Okay, here is from Wikipedia and I do remember this scene after reading it. Hasslein insists that he simply wants to know how apes became dominant over men. Cornelius reveals that the human race will cause its own downfall and become dominated by simians, and that simian aggression against humans will lead to Earth's destruction by a weapon made by humans. Zira explains that the gorillas started the war, and the orangutans supported the gorillas, but the chimpanzees had nothing to do with it. My question is does any of that NECESSARILY retcon the original?
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 19:08:27 GMT
Watch the movie again.
There are "normal" chimps in the circus, at the end. Cornelius, Zira and Dr. Milo not only can talk, but they got an "humanoid" appearance: they are bigger, taller and can walk normally --- they look like bigfoots.
In CONQUEST, you can see hundreds of "Humanoid Apes", and they are considered "normal apes" in that universe.
Okay, here is from Wikipedia and I do remember this scene after reading it. Hasslein insists that he simply wants to know how apes became dominant over men. Cornelius reveals that the human race will cause its own downfall and become dominated by simians, and that simian aggression against humans will lead to Earth's destruction by a weapon made by humans. Zira explains that the gorillas started the war, and the orangutans supported the gorillas, but the chimpanzees had nothing to do with it. My question is does any of that NECESSARILY retcon the original?
Well, Humanoid Apes are introduced in the first film. One can assume that they are "humanoid" because they have been altered by evolution (if you believe it's an alien planet, and we know that it isn't) or nuclear mutation. Taylor doesn't express himself on this argument.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 8, 2021 19:11:27 GMT
Fair enough. Maybe I am just really misremembering the movie. You can't expect everyone to have just watched these movies and then just trust that you are conveying the events of the movie accurately. Sorry. Maybe another big fan can confirm what you are saying and then I will accept it. This is what I am confused about in what you are saying. Of course the 3 that travelled back in time are humanoid. I don't get your point. You can't bring up Conquest btw, because that was made after Escape.
Not pretending anything from anymoe at all: I watched the movies millions of times and love to discuss them with people.
CONQUEST belongs to the very same continuity of ESCAPE. CONQUEST is set in 1991.
As simple as that, no human is surprised by the appearance of the "Humanoid Apes" in either 1973 and 1991. They are considered as being "normal apes" in that universe. Anyway, ESCAPE features real chimps (not actors in make-up) at the very end, thus we can firmly say that: humanoid apes are a simian species "normally" existing in that universe along with what we consider "normal apes". That's it.
Read my website, it's a fun read.
I took that to be lazy writing. That the movie just didn't want to have this whole big thing with humans being shocked by the look of the apes. Where are all the other humanoid apes at the time? I recall the 3 being the only humanoid apes ever shown in the movie. What I mean about not being able to use Conquest for anything regarding Escape is because when people watched Escape in 1971 that didn't have Conquest to compare it to. The movie didn't exist yet.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 8, 2021 19:15:57 GMT
Okay, here is from Wikipedia and I do remember this scene after reading it. Hasslein insists that he simply wants to know how apes became dominant over men. Cornelius reveals that the human race will cause its own downfall and become dominated by simians, and that simian aggression against humans will lead to Earth's destruction by a weapon made by humans. Zira explains that the gorillas started the war, and the orangutans supported the gorillas, but the chimpanzees had nothing to do with it. My question is does any of that NECESSARILY retcon the original?
Well, Humanoid Apes are introduced in the first film. One can assume that they are "humanoid" because they have been altered by evolution (if you believe it's an alien planet, and we know that it isn't) or nuclear mutation. Taylor doesn't express himself on this argument.
I took it as very fast evolution movie fantasy style. I mean the movie does take place 2000 years in the future and there have been unexplained rapid evolutionary leaps in the past, such as the Cambrian explosion. Not 2,000 years fast, but much faster than most others. I mean, if we are going to throw in nuclear mutation as an option as well, why not? As if we have any reason to believe a nuclear explosion would cause talking man monkeys.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 19:26:15 GMT
I took that to be lazy writing. That the movie just didn't want to have this whole big thing with humans being shocked by the look of the apes. Where are all the other humanoid apes at the time? I recall the 3 being the only humanoid apes ever shown in the movie. What I mean about not being able to use Conquest for anything regarding Escape is because when people watched Escape in 1971 that didn't have Conquest to compare it to. The movie didn't exist yet.
Well, BENEATH, ESCAPE and CONQUEST have been written by the same writer: Paul Dehn. So they are deeply connected.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 19:27:21 GMT
Well, Humanoid Apes are introduced in the first film. One can assume that they are "humanoid" because they have been altered by evolution (if you believe it's an alien planet, and we know that it isn't) or nuclear mutation. Taylor doesn't express himself on this argument.
I took it as very fast evolution movie fantasy style. I mean the movie does take place 2000 years in the future and there have been unexplained rapid evolutionary leaps in the past, such as the Cambrian explosion. Not 2,000 years fast, but much faster than most others. I mean, if we are going to throw in nuclear mutation as an option as well, why not? As if we have any reason to believe a nuclear explosion would cause talking man monkeys.
Yes, exactly. The first movie is set in 3978 AD.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 8, 2021 19:31:43 GMT
I took it as very fast evolution movie fantasy style. I mean the movie does take place 2000 years in the future and there have been unexplained rapid evolutionary leaps in the past, such as the Cambrian explosion. Not 2,000 years fast, but much faster than most others. I mean, if we are going to throw in nuclear mutation as an option as well, why not? As if we have any reason to believe a nuclear explosion would cause talking man monkeys.
Yes, exactly. The first movie is set in 3978 AD.
I guess I am just too stupid to understand. I can live with that. I do have ADD after all.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 19:40:00 GMT
Yes, exactly. The first movie is set in 3978 AD.
I guess I am just too stupid to understand. I can live with that. I do have ADD after all. No, why? You got it.
Even if you discard the sequels #2-5, the first movie is set in 3978 AD... 2010 years since the actual movie has been released. So as simple as that, I GUESS that they (the writers) intended the "Humanoid Apes" to be an "artificial" evolution of their original species.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 8, 2021 19:56:41 GMT
I guess I am just too stupid to understand. I can live with that. I do have ADD after all. No, why? You got it.
Even if you discard the sequels #2-5, the first movie is set in 3978 AD... 2010 years since the actual movie has been released. So as simple as that, I GUESS that they (the writers) intended the "Humanoid Apes" to be an "artificial" evolution of their original species.
I guess. I don't know. I have always found the reason why there are humanoid apes in the original somewhat vague. It is implied that it was one of 2 options. Rapid natural evolution or nuclear mutation leading to rapid evolution. I think it is just fuzzy writing when it comes to Escape.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 20:10:22 GMT
No, why? You got it.
Even if you discard the sequels #2-5, the first movie is set in 3978 AD... 2010 years since the actual movie has been released. So as simple as that, I GUESS that they (the writers) intended the "Humanoid Apes" to be an "artificial" evolution of their original species.
I guess. I don't know. I have always found the reason why there are humanoid apes in the original somewhat vague. It is implied that it was one of 2 options. Rapid natural evolution or nuclear mutation leading to rapid evolution. I think it is just fuzzy writing when it comes to Escape.
Problem was that either Taylor and Brent did no explicitly address anything about the Apes being "humanoid". So, from a certain point, you could be even right: ESCAPE did not retcon this aspect at all, because either Taylor and Brent did not explicitly state that the Apes were "humanoid". They seemed more concerned about the Apes being able to talk, wear clothes and use weapons, as well as them having a culture and a city of their own.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 8, 2021 20:19:41 GMT
I guess. I don't know. I have always found the reason why there are humanoid apes in the original somewhat vague. It is implied that it was one of 2 options. Rapid natural evolution or nuclear mutation leading to rapid evolution. I think it is just fuzzy writing when it comes to Escape.
Problem was that either Taylor and Brent did no explicitly address anything about the Apes being "humanoid". So, from a certain point, you could be even right: ESCAPE did not retcon this aspect at all, because either Taylor and Brent did not explicitly state that the Apes were "humanoid". They seemed more concerned about the Apes being able to talk, wear clothes and use weapons, as well as them having a culture and a city of their own.
Oh, sure. I get that. That would concern me too.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 8, 2021 20:27:45 GMT
In truth, Taylor did not even wonder why the Apes were talking in... ENGLISH! LOL.
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