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Post by Skaathar on Sept 19, 2021 23:12:44 GMT
The was my favorite one, and in my opinion the only truly worth the time. The Killmonger episode comes in 2nd place. I saw the Zombie one and I really enjoyed it. Those two lines Bucky said, they were to zombie version of his friends, so they were already dead, and they were trying to kill him at the time so it’s not so out of character. As to your issue with them being open-ended, well they are what-ifs. They are only pondering alternate realities. They can’t all end nicely. Even What-If storylines are still storylines, and a storyline deserves a decent story. Right now they're more like random ideas.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 20, 2021 19:12:32 GMT
I saw the Zombie one and I really enjoyed it. Those two lines Bucky said, they were to zombie version of his friends, so they were already dead, and they were trying to kill him at the time so it’s not so out of character. As to your issue with them being open-ended, well they are what-ifs. They are only pondering alternate realities. They can’t all end nicely. Even What-If storylines are still storylines, and a storyline deserves a decent story. Right now they're more like random ideas. I don't mind enjoying them as random ideas; it's the format itself that creates that particular constraint. If you look at the comics, 99.9% of all What If…? stories don't amount to much more than random ideas either. That's what makes the more memorable issues of What If…? beloved amongst fans of the series. The storytellers somehow managed to incorporate a fully fleshed-out narrative (and not just a cool idea). Both the comic and the series could benefit from longer episodes. There is no shortage of What If…? stories in the comics that feel compressed or inconsequential because they try to recap 12 issues of another series they were based on. To me, What If…? is perfect if you're just looking for a low-stakes, non-connected, half-hour diversion within the MCU. You can always tell a great What If…? story from all of the others because they usually end up becoming canon later on down the line.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 20, 2021 21:15:28 GMT
Even What-If storylines are still storylines, and a storyline deserves a decent story. Right now they're more like random ideas. I don't mind enjoying them as random ideas; it's the format itself that creates that particular constraint. If you look at the comics, 99.9% of all What If…? stories don't amount to much more than random ideas either. That's what makes the more memorable issues of What If…? beloved amongst fans of the series. The storytellers somehow managed to incorporate a fully fleshed-out narrative (and not just a cool idea). Both the comic and the series could benefit from longer episodes. There is no shortage of What If…? stories in the comics that feel compressed or inconsequential because they try to recap 12 issues of another series they were based on. To me, What If…? is perfect if you're just looking for a low-stakes, non-connected, half-hour diversion within the MCU. You can always tell a great What If…? story from all of the others because they usually end up becoming canon later on down the line. I don't disagree, but comics have the leeway to do throwaway stories because there's just far more comicbooks out there. This What If series only gets 9 episodes, and so I was expecting them to put in more effort into making more decent storylines because they don't exactly have the room to just do random, incomplete ideas.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 20, 2021 21:33:38 GMT
I don't mind enjoying them as random ideas; it's the format itself that creates that particular constraint. If you look at the comics, 99.9% of all What If…? stories don't amount to much more than random ideas either. That's what makes the more memorable issues of What If…? beloved amongst fans of the series. The storytellers somehow managed to incorporate a fully fleshed-out narrative (and not just a cool idea). Both the comic and the series could benefit from longer episodes. There is no shortage of What If…? stories in the comics that feel compressed or inconsequential because they try to recap 12 issues of another series they were based on. To me, What If…? is perfect if you're just looking for a low-stakes, non-connected, half-hour diversion within the MCU. You can always tell a great What If…? story from all of the others because they usually end up becoming canon later on down the line. I don't disagree, but comics have the leeway to do throwaway stories because there's just far more comicbooks out there. This What If series only gets 9 episodes, and so I was expecting them to put in more effort into making more decent storylines because they don't exactly have the room to just do random, incomplete ideas. One could argue that Marvel also has quite a bit of MCU content at this point, and some of it, especially a lower-cost animated series, could afford to explore some throwaway ideas. The fandom's propensity to treat all MCU content as "critical watching" is a mistake at best and unrealistic at worse. You wouldn't put the same pressure to be perfect or worthwhile on an episode of the Back to The Future cartoon as one of the live-action entries in the movie franchise. That said, I believe the key to What If…? being more substantive with its storytelling is lengthier explorations of their ideas that compare to DC's long-format Elseworld's animated productions. They shouldn't just riff off of existing MCU events. Zombies, which was almost a non sequitur in the series, is rumored to be in development for live action. That's how they should be thinking…
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 23, 2021 16:26:56 GMT
Ok latest episode... what the f***?!
I think it was decently enjoyable... as long as I turn my mind off for a bit. It's not that it's bad exactly, it just that this was such a light and seemingly inconsequential story that I'm surprised they spent the budget for it. In a world where you could literally throw any idea out for a What If scenario, why go for something as shallow as Thor throwing a house party?
I'm also not a fan of how they continuously make Thor out to be a joke. I know it's only a What If story but he was already made into a joke in Endgame and this is technically his next depiction in the MCU... and it's still a joke. Makes me quite a bit worried to see how they'll handle him in Love and Thunder.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 23, 2021 16:45:37 GMT
Ok latest episode... what the f***?! I think it was decently enjoyable... as long as I turn my mind off for a bit. It's not that it's bad exactly, it just that this was such a light and seemingly inconsequential story that I'm surprised they spent the budget for it. In a world where you could literally throw any idea out for a What If scenario, why go for something as shallow as Thor throwing a house party? I'm also not a fan of how they continuously make Thor out to be a joke. I know it's only a What If story but he was already made into a joke in Endgame and this is technically his next depiction in the MCU... and it's still a joke. Makes me quite a bit worried to see how they'll handle him in Love and Thunder. I didn't enjoy this episode much, if at all. The Captain Marvel vs. Thor fight was momentarily entertaining, but then it seemed to go nowhere. They've got a real problem with her being extremely OP - I don't see them devising a credible challenge for her in The Marvels. The show's producers say this episode was meant to be What If… Jane Foster Wielded Mjölnir? They couldn't do it at the last minute because part of the plot of Thor 4 revolves around that idea. This is what they came up with as a substitute? It's a lame AF premise. I wonder why Loki is a full-sized frost giant. In our universe, regardless of his adoption by Odin, he was born sickly and small for a frost giant. I guess in this universe, he wasn't, and thus there was no need for the adoption as Loki was never discarded.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 23, 2021 17:07:53 GMT
Ok latest episode... what the f***?! I think it was decently enjoyable... as long as I turn my mind off for a bit. It's not that it's bad exactly, it just that this was such a light and seemingly inconsequential story that I'm surprised they spent the budget for it. In a world where you could literally throw any idea out for a What If scenario, why go for something as shallow as Thor throwing a house party? I'm also not a fan of how they continuously make Thor out to be a joke. I know it's only a What If story but he was already made into a joke in Endgame and this is technically his next depiction in the MCU... and it's still a joke. Makes me quite a bit worried to see how they'll handle him in Love and Thunder. I didn't enjoy this episode much, if at all. The Captain Marvel vs. Thor fight was momentarily entertaining, but then it seemed to go nowhere. They've got a real problem with her being extremely OP - I don't see them devising a credible challenge for her in The Marvels. The show's producers say this episode was meant to be What If… Jane Foster Wielded Mjölnir? They couldn't do it at the last minute because part of the plot of Thor 4 revolves around that idea. This is what they came up with as a substitute? It's a lame AF premise. I wonder why Loki is a full-sized frost giant. In our universe, regardless of his adoption by Odin, he was born sickly and small for a frost giant. I guess in this universe, he wasn't, and thus there was no need for the adoption as Loki was never discarded. I think the biggest problem I have with these What If episodes is that some of them completely go against the lore already laid down by the MCU in a way that isn't justified by the What If changes made. For example, Dr. Strange losing the woman he loved doesn't explain why time travel suddenly works differently than what had already been established in the MCU. Like you mentioned, Thor being an only child doesn't explain how Loki is suddenly a full-sized Frost Giant. It also doesn't explain a whole bunch of stuff like: * Why is Surtur suddenly a party-animal and good friends with Thor? * How does Thor get a tattoo on Earth when he's pretty much bulletproof? * Why does the Bifrost take so long to teleport Frigga to Earth? Seemingly hours in fact. * Why does Thor seem to be completely dependent on Mjolnir in order to fight when his punches on their own are strong enough to hurt the Hulk? * Why does Jane Foster act like a teenage girl on prom night? * How the heck is Korg and Valkryie even there? * Why does Heimdall not see Thor partying on Earth? All of these are small enough nitpicks that I could easily ignore them individually, but when put together it paints a picture of a writing and production team that just does not care about the IP they're handling.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 23, 2021 17:36:43 GMT
I didn't enjoy this episode much, if at all. The Captain Marvel vs. Thor fight was momentarily entertaining, but then it seemed to go nowhere. They've got a real problem with her being extremely OP - I don't see them devising a credible challenge for her in The Marvels. The show's producers say this episode was meant to be What If… Jane Foster Wielded Mjölnir? They couldn't do it at the last minute because part of the plot of Thor 4 revolves around that idea. This is what they came up with as a substitute? It's a lame AF premise. I wonder why Loki is a full-sized frost giant. In our universe, regardless of his adoption by Odin, he was born sickly and small for a frost giant. I guess in this universe, he wasn't, and thus there was no need for the adoption as Loki was never discarded. I think the biggest problem I have with these What If episodes is that some of them completely go against the lore already laid down by the MCU in a way that isn't justified by the What If changes made. For example, Dr. Strange losing the woman he loved doesn't explain why time travel suddenly works differently than what had already been established in the MCU. Like you mentioned, Thor being an only child doesn't explain how Loki is suddenly a full-sized Frost Giant. It also doesn't explain a whole bunch of stuff like: * Why is Surtur suddenly a party-animal and good friends with Thor? * How does Thor get a tattoo on Earth when he's pretty much bulletproof? * Why does the Bifrost take so long to teleport Frigga to Earth? Seemingly hours in fact. * Why does Thor seem to be completely dependent on Mjolnir in order to fight when his punches on their own are strong enough to hurt the Hulk? * Why does Jane Foster act like a teenage girl on prom night? * How the heck is Korg and Valkryie even there? * Why does Heimdall not see Thor partying on Earth? All of these are small enough nitpicks that I could easily ignore them individually, but when put together it paints a picture of a writing and production team that just does not care about the IP they're handling. Those are valid nits that do add up when combined, but I'd be willing to forgive that and more for an intriguing premise with an even decent execution - it doesn't have to be exceptional. Again, I'm not really watching these episodes with a critical eye for overall consistency with the franchise's established rules. That makes an episode like this one even more unforgivable as I'm giving the writing a lot of latitude. It's like excepting that Jessica Drew got her powers from a serum her father made in the cartoon vs. the clearly contradictory Spider Woman origin from the comic books. After a while, you just go with it. The Loki thing really stood out for me, because I didn't see a clear relationship between Thor being an only child and Loki suddenly being born healthy and seemingly inheriting his father's throne. That's more like, What If… Asgard Never Fought The frost Giants. Then again, maybe that's why Thor is an only child. If you must deviate from canon or contradict it outright, this is literally the place to do it, but the story and premise must be more than a lazy, throwaway idea. The premise, even if it's random, has to be intriguing and marginally well thought out.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 24, 2021 1:27:36 GMT
This was a terrible episode, easily the worst. It wasn't about anything, it was just a bunch of gags. It should've been called, "What if the writers got stoned and wrote an episode of this show." Total garbage. Thor and Captain Marvel were completely unlikeable characters. Just a bunch of nonsense with absolutely no point. It reminded me more of the What The--?! comic instead of What If, except What The--?! was actually funny.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 24, 2021 16:55:46 GMT
This was a terrible episode, easily the worst. It wasn't about anything, it was just a bunch of gags. It should've been called, "What if the writers got stoned and wrote an episode of this show." Total garbage. Thor and Captain Marvel were completely unlikeable characters. Just a bunch of nonsense with absolutely no point. It reminded me more of the What The--?! comic instead of What If, except What The--?! was actually funny. I'm pretty sure they wrote this episode mostly as an excuse to have Thor and Carol fight. Because it just does not make sense that, out of all the possible What If storylines they could have used for Thor, this was the best they could come up with. If you remove the Thor vs. Captain Marvel fight, there's really nothing of worth that happens in this episode at all. Well, the cliffhanger at the end is interesting but then you can add that to any episode. The writing in this episode reads like really bad fan fiction.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 29, 2021 15:16:27 GMT
Great episode.
Thoroughly enjoyed it. What If… Ultron Won? is what it looks like when you creatively and carefully use the MCU as a loose framework for exploring other (worthwhile) ideas.
As some of you will likely note, the story isn't as internally consistent as it could be, but all in all, this is an episode that proves the series has the right to exist and not be slavishly tied to the overall MCU.
My only significant nitpick is the lack of Spader. His replacement gave an excellent performance, but Spader's voice is just too distinct not to miss. He should have said something about "strings."
Can't wait for the next episode.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 29, 2021 15:17:36 GMT
And "Voltron" beats America Chavez to punches someone through reality in the MCU.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 29, 2021 15:53:42 GMT
Great episode. Thoroughly enjoyed it. What If… Ultron Won? is what it looks like when you creatively and carefully use the MCU as a loose framework for exploring other (worthwhile) ideas. As some of you will likely note, the story isn't as internally consistent as it could be, but all in all, this is an episode that proves the series has the right to exist and not be slavishly tied to the overall MCU. My only significant nitpick is the lack of Spader. His replacement gave an excellent performance, but Spader's voice is just too distinct not to miss. He should have said something about "strings." Can't wait for the next episode. Probably my favorite episode so far. Finally we get an interesting premise written in a (relatively) proper pace with enough development for characters to make us care. Good action scenes help as well, and it ends with a cliffhanger that actually makes me want to see the next episode. I do have a few issues with power consistency though. Ultron one-shotting Thanos even when he had the full Infinity Gauntlet was a bit hard to swallow. Ultron easily destroying Asgard without a single form of resistance whereas Xandar provided quite a bit more resistance was questionable. And it's really starting to get irritating how the MCU keeps trying to force Captain Marvel into the forefront. They need to stop making her happen and just allow her to happen, same way they do to their other characters.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 29, 2021 16:15:20 GMT
Great episode. Thoroughly enjoyed it. What If… Ultron Won? is what it looks like when you creatively and carefully use the MCU as a loose framework for exploring other (worthwhile) ideas. As some of you will likely note, the story isn't as internally consistent as it could be, but all in all, this is an episode that proves the series has the right to exist and not be slavishly tied to the overall MCU. My only significant nitpick is the lack of Spader. His replacement gave an excellent performance, but Spader's voice is just too distinct not to miss. He should have said something about "strings." Can't wait for the next episode. Probably my favorite episode so far. Finally we get an interesting premise written in a (relatively) proper pace with enough development for characters to make us care. Good action scenes help as well, and it ends with a cliffhanger that actually makes me want to see the next episode. I do have a few issues with power consistency though. Ultron one-shotting Thanos even when he had the full Infinity Gauntlet was a bit hard to swallow. Ultron easily destroying Asgard without a single form of resistance whereas Xandar provided quite a bit more resistance was questionable. And it's really starting to get irritating how the MCU keeps trying to force Captain Marvel into the forefront as an OP character. Literally everyone is having an issue with Thanos' quick demise.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 29, 2021 16:30:02 GMT
Hit post early… I did find the sequence a bit abrupt and anticlimactic. Thanos should have at least said something and got off a volley. That said, Ultron's ability to analyze and execute battle strategy could have been a match for Thanos' battle prowess. The time and power stones would have been Ultron's biggest worry.
Ultron might have been the one eventuality Thanos could not have prepared for.
I don't think it's an accident that he cut him in half either. He likely read his mind and enacted Thanos' own plan on himself as a sort of twisted mockery of what he considered to be a "half" measure.
I'm waiting for the inevitable, "how could he have welded the soul stone nitpicks?"
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 29, 2021 18:26:19 GMT
Hit post early… I did find the sequence a bit abrupt and anticlimactic. Thanos should have at least said something and got off a volley. That said, Ultron's ability to analyze and execute battle strategy could have been a match for Thanos' battle prowess. The time and power stones would have been Ultron's biggest worry. Ultron might have been the one eventuality Thanos could not have prepared for. I don't think it's an accident that he cut him in half either. He likely read his mind and enacted Thanos' own plan on himself as a sort of twisted mockery of what he considered to be a "half" measure. I'm waiting for the inevitable, "how could he have welded the soul stone nitpicks?" Well I'm a bit more irritated that he could cut Thanos in half so easily. Thanos, while not invulnerable, was tough enough to survive such massive attacks like Thor's lightning + Stormbreaker and pretty much IM's and Dr. Strange's entire arsenal. So yeah, maybe Ultron could have hurt him with a blast but not cut him in half so easily. Vision's blasts were never shown to be THAT strong. I mean, it's not a major nitpick, just something I find irritating. It's the 2nd time this show has crapped on Thanos.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 29, 2021 18:44:52 GMT
Hit post early… I did find the sequence a bit abrupt and anticlimactic. Thanos should have at least said something and got off a volley. That said, Ultron's ability to analyze and execute battle strategy could have been a match for Thanos' battle prowess. The time and power stones would have been Ultron's biggest worry. Ultron might have been the one eventuality Thanos could not have prepared for. I don't think it's an accident that he cut him in half either. He likely read his mind and enacted Thanos' own plan on himself as a sort of twisted mockery of what he considered to be a "half" measure. I'm waiting for the inevitable, "how could he have welded the soul stone nitpicks?" Well I'm a bit more irritated that he could cut Thanos in half so easily. Thanos, while not invulnerable, was tough enough to survive such massive attacks like Thor's lightning + Stormbreaker and pretty much IM's and Dr. Strange's entire arsenal. So yeah, maybe Ultron could have hurt him with a blast but not cut him in half so easily. Vision's blasts were never shown to be THAT strong. I mean, it's not a major nitpick, just something I find irritating. It's the 2nd time this show has crapped on Thanos. Agreed, it did happen too quickly, but I still don't think that precludes the possibility of it happening at all. It helps to look at the spirit of what the creators were trying to do with the scene. Sometimes a writer will throw away a convention to arrive at a place of surprise or delight. I'm not saying they were successful here; I'm just pointing out the motivation. The writer made the conscious decision to go against what we know about Thanos and subvert expectations with turnabout. That's a fair strategy when executed thoughtfully. Here it was done primarily for shock value. And I'm sure it did shock some casual fans who think of Thanos as the ultimate alpha villain. The writers wanted people to entertain the possibility that their amalgamated Vision/Ultron creation was a more significant threat than Thanos.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 29, 2021 18:47:40 GMT
In an odd sort of irony, some episodes of the show appear to be gaining some traction amongst Snyder fans on social. I'm guessing it's due to the focus on darker endings and OP showdowns.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 29, 2021 19:25:09 GMT
Well I'm a bit more irritated that he could cut Thanos in half so easily. Thanos, while not invulnerable, was tough enough to survive such massive attacks like Thor's lightning + Stormbreaker and pretty much IM's and Dr. Strange's entire arsenal. So yeah, maybe Ultron could have hurt him with a blast but not cut him in half so easily. Vision's blasts were never shown to be THAT strong. I mean, it's not a major nitpick, just something I find irritating. It's the 2nd time this show has crapped on Thanos. Agreed, it did happen too quickly, but I still don't think that precludes the possibility of it happening at all. It helps to look at the spirit of what the creators were trying to do with the scene. Sometimes a writer will throw away a convention to arrive at a place of surprise or delight. I'm not saying they were successful here; I'm just pointing out the motivation. The writer made the conscious decision to go against what we know about Thanos and subvert expectations with turnabout. That's a fair strategy when executed thoughtfully. Here it was done primarily for shock value. And I'm sure it did shock some casual fans who think of Thanos as the ultimate alpha villain. The writers wanted people to entertain the possibility that their amalgamated Vision/Ultron creation was a more significant threat than Thanos. Personally, I think you're giving the writers way too much credit. My theory is that they wanted Ultron to get the infinity stones but didn't want to write a creative way on how he gets it, so they figured "Yeah let's just get him to kill Thanos so he can get the stones and we can get on with the story". I felt it was a lazy way to acquire their goals. It's the same feeling I've been getting from the writers of the other What If episodes. "I have an idea I want to portray and I don't care about screwing up MCU continuity as long as I get to do what I want. MCU fans can go f*ck themselves. I'll make the characters do whatever the hell I want because I'm the writer. What do you mean I have to do my research? This is a What IF episode, f*ck research. I can do whatever I want". But oh well, that's just my guess and your guess is as good as mine.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 29, 2021 19:48:22 GMT
Agreed, it did happen too quickly, but I still don't think that precludes the possibility of it happening at all. It helps to look at the spirit of what the creators were trying to do with the scene. Sometimes a writer will throw away a convention to arrive at a place of surprise or delight. I'm not saying they were successful here; I'm just pointing out the motivation. The writer made the conscious decision to go against what we know about Thanos and subvert expectations with turnabout. That's a fair strategy when executed thoughtfully. Here it was done primarily for shock value. And I'm sure it did shock some casual fans who think of Thanos as the ultimate alpha villain. The writers wanted people to entertain the possibility that their amalgamated Vision/Ultron creation was a more significant threat than Thanos. Personally, I think you're giving the writers way too much credit. My theory is that they wanted Ultron to get the infinity stones but didn't want to write a creative way on how he gets it, so they figured "Yeah let's just get him to kill Thanos so he can get the stones and we can get on with the story". I felt it was a lazy way to acquire their goals. It's the same feeling I've been getting from the writers of the other What If episodes. "I have an idea I want to portray and I don't care about screwing up MCU continuity as long as I get to do what I want. MCU fans can go f*ck themselves. I'll make the characters do whatever the hell I want because I'm the writer. What do you mean I have to do my research? This is a What IF episode, f*ck research. I can do whatever I want". But oh well, that's just my guess and your guess is as good as mine. I don't mean this in a negative or confrontational way, but it sounds more like you could be projecting your own anger and frustration with the shows unto its writing staff. I'm more comfortable giving them the benefit of the doubt than assuming there is a conspiracy to make a bad product at play here. Shows have schedules and budgets, working writers have other assignments. It may not be possible to comb through 13 years of storytelling to fully understand a character's powersets - I think the focus here might have been on dialing in the broad strokes of a character's personality - because, in all fairness, that's where the drama lies. If given the opportunity, I doubt any writer in Hollywood is planning on purposefully cranking out a subpar product for their Marvel gig. It's likely a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for most writers, and I'm betting they all want to be called back. That said, what you perceive as some kind of willful and malicious malfeasance, I see as the limitations of the format and the reality of working on an animated series with a finite budget. That's not to say I'm letting the team off the hook entirely; there are several glaring issues with QC on the show but, I don't think it comes down to people 'not giving a fuck about MCU fans.' By now, the stories in the MCU are the product of contributions from hundreds of different sources. I don't find it unreasonable for one writer on an episode not to ingest and retain all of that information given the previously mentioned constraints. This show is obviously meant to entertain based on being MCU adjacent. It's not meant to add to the primary narrative, and it's certainly not designed to be consistent with it. The live-action MCU isn't consistent within itself if we're being frank. If I was as frustrated with the show as some fans appear to be, I'd likely be walking away from it. Since we're all here, week after week, there's probably some value in the show overall. As you say, at the end of the day, we are all just guessing.
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