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Post by Skaathar on Sept 29, 2021 19:55:10 GMT
Personally, I think you're giving the writers way too much credit. My theory is that they wanted Ultron to get the infinity stones but didn't want to write a creative way on how he gets it, so they figured "Yeah let's just get him to kill Thanos so he can get the stones and we can get on with the story". I felt it was a lazy way to acquire their goals. It's the same feeling I've been getting from the writers of the other What If episodes. "I have an idea I want to portray and I don't care about screwing up MCU continuity as long as I get to do what I want. MCU fans can go f*ck themselves. I'll make the characters do whatever the hell I want because I'm the writer. What do you mean I have to do my research? This is a What IF episode, f*ck research. I can do whatever I want". But oh well, that's just my guess and your guess is as good as mine. I don't mean this in a negative or confrontational way, but it sounds more like you could be projecting your own anger and frustration with the shows unto its writing staff. I'm more comfortable giving them the benefit of the doubt than assuming there is a conspiracy to make a bad product at play here. Shows have schedules and budgets, working writers have other assignments. It may not be possible to comb through 13 years of storytelling to fully understand a character's powersets - I think the focus here might have been on dialing in the broad strokes of a character's personality - because, in all fairness, that's where the drama lies. If given the opportunity, I doubt any writer in Hollywood is planning on purposefully cranking out a subpar product for their Marvel gig. It's likely a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for most writers, and I'm betting they all want to be called back. That said, what you perceive as some kind of willful and malicious malfeasance, I see as the limitations of the format and the reality of working on an animated series with a finite budget. That's not to say I'm letting the team off the hook entirely; there are several glaring issues with QC on the show but, I don't think it comes down to people 'not giving a fuck about MCU fans.' By now, the stories in the MCU are the product of contributions from hundreds of different sources. I don't find it unreasonable for one writer on an episode not to ingest and retain all of that information given the previously mentioned constraints. This show is obviously meant to entertain based on being MCU adjacent. It's not meant to add to the primary narrative, and it's certainly not designed to be consistent with it. The live-action MCU isn't consistent within itself if we're being frank. If I was as frustrated with the show as some fans appear to be, I'd likely be walking away from it. Since we're all here, week after week, there's probably some value in the show overall. As you say, at the end of the day, we are all just guessing. You misunderstand me. I'm not claiming the writers are being malicious or that they're purposely destroying characters due to some personal vendetta. I'm not trying to paint a picture of a conspiracy here. What I am saying, is that the writers are only concerned about portraying their own story, the way they want it to be portrayed, without taking into consideration the history of the characters they're portraying nor the greater MCU lore in general. They don't care whether they make their characters act in an inconsistent way with the rest of the MCU, they just care that they're able to tell their story. And that's not me projecting my anger or however you want to interpret that. This is me giving an objective observation. Every single What If episode has played fast and loose with MCU continuity and character personalities/backgrounds, far more than what their What If scenarios can explain. P.S. - If I was hiring a professional writer to create a single chapter that's part of my bigger story, I absolutely expect them to do their research to make sure they're consistent with the story. That 13 years of storytelling you mentioned could easily be condensed into 2-3 days worth of research, and that's only if their research isn't targeted. Targeted research can cut that down to 1 day's worth of research.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 29, 2021 20:04:02 GMT
I don't mean this in a negative or confrontational way, but it sounds more like you could be projecting your own anger and frustration with the shows unto its writing staff. I'm more comfortable giving them the benefit of the doubt than assuming there is a conspiracy to make a bad product at play here. Shows have schedules and budgets, working writers have other assignments. It may not be possible to comb through 13 years of storytelling to fully understand a character's powersets - I think the focus here might have been on dialing in the broad strokes of a character's personality - because, in all fairness, that's where the drama lies. If given the opportunity, I doubt any writer in Hollywood is planning on purposefully cranking out a subpar product for their Marvel gig. It's likely a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for most writers, and I'm betting they all want to be called back. That said, what you perceive as some kind of willful and malicious malfeasance, I see as the limitations of the format and the reality of working on an animated series with a finite budget. That's not to say I'm letting the team off the hook entirely; there are several glaring issues with QC on the show but, I don't think it comes down to people 'not giving a fuck about MCU fans.' By now, the stories in the MCU are the product of contributions from hundreds of different sources. I don't find it unreasonable for one writer on an episode not to ingest and retain all of that information given the previously mentioned constraints. This show is obviously meant to entertain based on being MCU adjacent. It's not meant to add to the primary narrative, and it's certainly not designed to be consistent with it. The live-action MCU isn't consistent within itself if we're being frank. If I was as frustrated with the show as some fans appear to be, I'd likely be walking away from it. Since we're all here, week after week, there's probably some value in the show overall. As you say, at the end of the day, we are all just guessing. You misunderstand me. I'm not claiming the writers are being malicious or that they're purposely destroying characters due to some personal vendetta. I'm not trying to paint a picture of a conspiracy here. What I am saying, is that the writers are only concerned about portraying their own story, the way they want it to be portrayed, without taking into consideration the history of the characters they're portraying nor the greater MCU lore in general. They don't care whether they make their characters act in an inconsistent way with the rest of the MCU, they just care that they're able to tell their story. And that's not me projecting my anger or however you want to interpret that. This is me giving an objective observation. Every single What If episode has played fast and loose with MCU continuity and character personalities/backgrounds, far more than what their What If scenarios can explain. Got it. You're quote seemed a bit out there to me. Again, no disrespect. On this, we differ because I believe writers are obligated to tell their own stories. At some point, you have to throw off continuity if it hinders your efforts to tell an engaging story. What If…? is a perfect, and perhaps the only opportunity you'd get to do that in the MCU. While I disagree with some of the choices around characterization and story portrayed in the series, I defend their right to do it. All I can say is I didn't like it, and not that it's objectively right or wrong. Good talking with you.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 30, 2021 12:35:18 GMT
Skaathar Lord Death ManYou guys pretty much covered the episode from all angles, and I agree with most of what you both have to say. I think skaathar is right about the writers taking a shortcut to give the stones to Ultron, but I also agree with LDM that it isn't that big of a deal because they only have so much time to work with. Ditto for the destruction of Asgard, or even the defeat of the Avengers for that matter. If that happened in a film, I'd think it was garbage. But in an animated alternate reality, roughly half hour chapter format, I'm willing to roll with it. I'm excited to see interconnectivity between episodes, and this is the first time I can honestly say I'm looking forward to the next one. One bit of irony that hasn't been mentioned. Ultron did what he was designed to do. Tony built him to stop Thanos, and he did. Unfortunately he replaced him as the alpha threat, but hey. One thing that does continue to bother me (and I know this is What If, but still) is the lack of cohesion from property to property in the MCU. Endgame describes time travel one way while Loki seems to take a different stance. Loki also informs us that Infinity Stones don't work outside of their own reality (which is true to the comics, and makes sense), yet Ultron was using them to coast from reality to reality in this episode. Again, I understand it's a show about infinite possibilities, but if we're following this massive interconnected universe of films and shows, they need to decide on the ground rules before the narrative completely falls apart.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 30, 2021 12:48:39 GMT
Skaathar Lord Death Man You guys pretty much covered the episode from all angles, and I agree with most of what you both have to say. I think skaathar is right about the writers taking a shortcut to give the stones to Ultron, but I also agree with LDM that it isn't that big of a deal because they only have so much time to work with. Ditto for the destruction of Asgard, or even the defeat of the Avengers for that matter. If that happened in a film, I'd think it was garbage. But in an animated alternate reality, roughly half hour chapter format, I'm willing to roll with it. I'm excited to see interconnectivity between episodes, and this is the first time I can honestly say I'm looking forward to the next one. One bit of irony that hasn't been mentioned. Ultron did what he was designed to do. Tony built him to stop Thanos, and he did. Unfortunately he replaced him as the alpha threat, but hey. One thing that does continue to bother me (and I know this is What If, but still) is the lack of cohesion from property to property in the MCU. Endgame describes time travel one way while Loki seems to take a different stance. Loki also informs us that Infinity Stones don't work outside of their own reality (which is true to the comics, and makes sense), yet Ultron was using them to coast from reality to reality in this episode. Again, I understand it's a show about infinite possibilities, but if we're following this massive interconnected universe of films and shows, they need to decide on the ground rules before the narrative completely falls apart. Great points, and thank you. Are the Infinity Stones really incapacitated when traveling to another universe? We know they don't work when housed at the TVA - which is technically outside of known reality. If the stones didn't work in other non-native universes, that would have negated Endgame's plot entirely. They couldn't have stolen stones from different universes, used them, and then returned them. A big part of the problem is that we're all using universe, reality, and time as near interchangeable concepts…
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 30, 2021 13:10:30 GMT
Skaathar Lord Death Man You guys pretty much covered the episode from all angles, and I agree with most of what you both have to say. I think skaathar is right about the writers taking a shortcut to give the stones to Ultron, but I also agree with LDM that it isn't that big of a deal because they only have so much time to work with. Ditto for the destruction of Asgard, or even the defeat of the Avengers for that matter. If that happened in a film, I'd think it was garbage. But in an animated alternate reality, roughly half hour chapter format, I'm willing to roll with it. I'm excited to see interconnectivity between episodes, and this is the first time I can honestly say I'm looking forward to the next one. One bit of irony that hasn't been mentioned. Ultron did what he was designed to do. Tony built him to stop Thanos, and he did. Unfortunately he replaced him as the alpha threat, but hey. One thing that does continue to bother me (and I know this is What If, but still) is the lack of cohesion from property to property in the MCU. Endgame describes time travel one way while Loki seems to take a different stance. Loki also informs us that Infinity Stones don't work outside of their own reality (which is true to the comics, and makes sense), yet Ultron was using them to coast from reality to reality in this episode. Again, I understand it's a show about infinite possibilities, but if we're following this massive interconnected universe of films and shows, they need to decide on the ground rules before the narrative completely falls apart. Great points, and thank you. Are the Infinity Stones really incapacitated when traveling to another universe? We know they don't work when housed at the TVA - which is technically outside of known reality. If the stones didn't work in other non-native universes, that would have negated Endgame's plot entirely. They couldn't have stolen stones from different universes, used them, and then returned them. A big part of the problem is that we're all using universe, reality, and time as near interchangeable concepts… Exactly, and this was always the issue with Endgame. Are the stones in a different reality or timeline? Does Steve travel to an alternate reality at the end to be with Peggy, or simply go back in time? What's the difference? It's unclear and the directors and writers of Endgame had conflicting answers to those questions-- and Loki only made it more confusing. So it's up to us to figure it out on our own, I guess.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 30, 2021 13:20:16 GMT
Great points, and thank you. Are the Infinity Stones really incapacitated when traveling to another universe? We know they don't work when housed at the TVA - which is technically outside of known reality. If the stones didn't work in other non-native universes, that would have negated Endgame's plot entirely. They couldn't have stolen stones from different universes, used them, and then returned them. A big part of the problem is that we're all using universe, reality, and time as near interchangeable concepts…Exactly, and this was always the issue with Endgame. Are the stones in a different reality or timeline? Does Steve travel to an alternate reality at the end to be with Peggy, or simply go back in time? What's the difference? It's unclear and the directors and writers of Endgame had conflicting answers to those questions-- and Loki only made it more confusing. So it's up to us to figure it out on our own, I guess. After months of trying to reconcile it all, I decided that it didn’t really matter to me. It seems like a fool‘s errand to spend all of your time trying line up fake science anyway. I do wish it was more consistent, however, I was reasonably entertained by what I saw and that’s the most important thing to me at the end of the day. I think the safest way for Marvel to explain all of this is to get out of the time travel business entirely. It’s catnip for those that like to nitpick and it inevitably compromises good storytelling.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 1, 2021 17:02:47 GMT
Skaathar Lord Death Man You guys pretty much covered the episode from all angles, and I agree with most of what you both have to say. I think skaathar is right about the writers taking a shortcut to give the stones to Ultron, but I also agree with LDM that it isn't that big of a deal because they only have so much time to work with. Ditto for the destruction of Asgard, or even the defeat of the Avengers for that matter. If that happened in a film, I'd think it was garbage. But in an animated alternate reality, roughly half hour chapter format, I'm willing to roll with it. I'm excited to see interconnectivity between episodes, and this is the first time I can honestly say I'm looking forward to the next one. One bit of irony that hasn't been mentioned. Ultron did what he was designed to do. Tony built him to stop Thanos, and he did. Unfortunately he replaced him as the alpha threat, but hey. One thing that does continue to bother me (and I know this is What If, but still) is the lack of cohesion from property to property in the MCU. Endgame describes time travel one way while Loki seems to take a different stance. Loki also informs us that Infinity Stones don't work outside of their own reality (which is true to the comics, and makes sense), yet Ultron was using them to coast from reality to reality in this episode. Again, I understand it's a show about infinite possibilities, but if we're following this massive interconnected universe of films and shows, they need to decide on the ground rules before the narrative completely falls apart. In my defense, I did mention it was a minor nitpick. Or at least it was for this specific episode. When taken as a whole though, the amount of inconsistencies in these What If shows are quite staggering. I know it's not easy maintaining an interconnected universe and I do expect plot holes to appear here and there, even criticized quite a number of them, but for the most part the MCU has been pretty good about maintaining cohesion between their shows. But the stuff they pull out in the What If shows... it completely breaks a lot of the existing premises the MCU has laid down. We're not just talking a few inconsistencies but massive plot holes. So yeah, it just felt like sloppy and lazy writing to me. Like writers who were concerned only on making their one episode good without caring for the rest of the MCU. Guess I was expecting better from the MCU, though I probably should have known better after Loki. But I can look past it for this episode because I quite liked this episode.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 1, 2021 17:10:45 GMT
Skaathar Lord Death Man You guys pretty much covered the episode from all angles, and I agree with most of what you both have to say. I think skaathar is right about the writers taking a shortcut to give the stones to Ultron, but I also agree with LDM that it isn't that big of a deal because they only have so much time to work with. Ditto for the destruction of Asgard, or even the defeat of the Avengers for that matter. If that happened in a film, I'd think it was garbage. But in an animated alternate reality, roughly half hour chapter format, I'm willing to roll with it. I'm excited to see interconnectivity between episodes, and this is the first time I can honestly say I'm looking forward to the next one. One bit of irony that hasn't been mentioned. Ultron did what he was designed to do. Tony built him to stop Thanos, and he did. Unfortunately he replaced him as the alpha threat, but hey. One thing that does continue to bother me (and I know this is What If, but still) is the lack of cohesion from property to property in the MCU. Endgame describes time travel one way while Loki seems to take a different stance. Loki also informs us that Infinity Stones don't work outside of their own reality (which is true to the comics, and makes sense), yet Ultron was using them to coast from reality to reality in this episode. Again, I understand it's a show about infinite possibilities, but if we're following this massive interconnected universe of films and shows, they need to decide on the ground rules before the narrative completely falls apart. In my defense, I did mention it was a minor nitpick. Or at least it was for this specific episode. When taken as a whole though, the amount of inconsistencies in these What If shows are quite staggering. I know it's not easy maintaining an interconnected universe and I do expect plot holes to appear here and there, even criticized quite a number of them, but for the most part the MCU has been pretty good about maintaining cohesion between their shows. But the stuff they pull out in the What If shows... it completely breaks a lot of the existing premises the MCU has laid down. We're not just talking a few inconsistencies but massive plot holes. So yeah, it just felt like sloppy and lazy writing to me. Like writers who were concerned only on making their one episode good without caring for the rest of the MCU. Guess I was expecting better from the MCU, though I probably should have known better after Loki. Not to beat a dead horse (or rip off a scab more like), but you should've known better after Endgame. I think we all agree it's a great movie, but deeply flawed. Stormbreaker overpowered the goddamn gauntlet in IW, but Thor is somehow thrown around like a ragdoll by stoneless Thanos in Endgame. Power levels in action movies, let alone CBMs are always going to fluctuate according to whatever makes a scene more compelling/exciting.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 1, 2021 17:16:19 GMT
In my defense, I did mention it was a minor nitpick. Or at least it was for this specific episode. When taken as a whole though, the amount of inconsistencies in these What If shows are quite staggering. I know it's not easy maintaining an interconnected universe and I do expect plot holes to appear here and there, even criticized quite a number of them, but for the most part the MCU has been pretty good about maintaining cohesion between their shows. But the stuff they pull out in the What If shows... it completely breaks a lot of the existing premises the MCU has laid down. We're not just talking a few inconsistencies but massive plot holes. So yeah, it just felt like sloppy and lazy writing to me. Like writers who were concerned only on making their one episode good without caring for the rest of the MCU. Guess I was expecting better from the MCU, though I probably should have known better after Loki. Not to beat a dead horse (or rip off a scab more like), but you should've known better after Endgame. I think we all agree it's a great movie, but deeply flawed. Stormbreaker overpowered the goddamn gauntlet in IW, but Thor is somehow thrown around like a ragdoll by stoneless Thanos in Endgame. Power levels in action movies, let alone CBMs are always going to fluctuate according to whatever makes a scene more compelling/exciting. You're right, Endgame was the turning point. There were already a few inconsistencies sprinkled around other movies, Infinity War in particular, but it wasn't until Endgame where it became blatantly obvious. I'm fine with power fluctuations but it needs to be within reason and the MCU for the most part had been reasonable. Up until Endgame anyway, and apparently moving forward as well.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 1, 2021 17:21:55 GMT
In my defense, I did mention it was a minor nitpick. Or at least it was for this specific episode. When taken as a whole though, the amount of inconsistencies in these What If shows are quite staggering. I know it's not easy maintaining an interconnected universe and I do expect plot holes to appear here and there, even criticized quite a number of them, but for the most part the MCU has been pretty good about maintaining cohesion between their shows. But the stuff they pull out in the What If shows... it completely breaks a lot of the existing premises the MCU has laid down. We're not just talking a few inconsistencies but massive plot holes. So yeah, it just felt like sloppy and lazy writing to me. Like writers who were concerned only on making their one episode good without caring for the rest of the MCU. Guess I was expecting better from the MCU, though I probably should have known better after Loki. Not to beat a dead horse (or rip off a scab more like), but you should've known better after Endgame. I think we all agree it's a great movie, but deeply flawed. Stormbreaker overpowered the goddamn gauntlet in IW, but Thor is somehow thrown around like a ragdoll by stoneless Thanos in Endgame. Power levels in action movies, let alone CBMs are always going to fluctuate according to whatever makes a scene more compelling/exciting. Agreed, Endgame was a turning point for the overall continuity and consistency of the franchise. It really created an all new continuity for me. In my mind the franchises is divided into before and after Endgame. I’m of the opinion that it would’ve been hard to surprise fans the way they did if they didn’t break from the confines of existing continuity to some degree. Honestly, the same thing happens a lot in comic books. That said, I have a feeling that if you are truly a stickler for continuity and consistency, the next episode of What If is likely going to seriously anger some fans. The set up with Dark Doctor Strange in the end seems destined to create more paradoxes and inconsistencies regarding power-levels. I’m just grateful that outside of the vocal minority, most of the fans have been able to have fun with the series and accept it for what it is.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 1, 2021 17:45:06 GMT
Not to beat a dead horse (or rip off a scab more like), but you should've known better after Endgame. I think we all agree it's a great movie, but deeply flawed. Stormbreaker overpowered the goddamn gauntlet in IW, but Thor is somehow thrown around like a ragdoll by stoneless Thanos in Endgame. Power levels in action movies, let alone CBMs are always going to fluctuate according to whatever makes a scene more compelling/exciting. Agreed, Endgame was a turning point for the overall continuity and consistency of the franchise. It really created an all new continuity for me. In my mind the franchises is divided into before and after Endgame. I’m of the opinion that it would’ve been hard to surprise fans the way they did if they didn’t break from the confines of existing continuity to some degree. Honestly, the same thing happens a lot in comic books. That said, I have a feeling that if you are truly a stickler for continuity and consistency, the next episode of What If is likely going to seriously anger some fans. The set up with Dark Doctor Strange in the end seems destined to create more paradoxes and inconsistencies regarding power-levels. I’m just grateful that outside of the vocal minority, most of the fans have been able to have fun with the series and accept it for what it is. To be honest, I wish they had just confirmed that the What If episodes were completely not connected to the main MCU. Like they eventually did with Agents of SHIELD. Once they distanced themselves from AOS it was able to fully bloom as its own show. That they tried to tie-in these What If shows to the main continuity is what makes them kinda messy.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 1, 2021 18:06:17 GMT
Agreed, Endgame was a turning point for the overall continuity and consistency of the franchise. It really created an all new continuity for me. In my mind the franchises is divided into before and after Endgame. I’m of the opinion that it would’ve been hard to surprise fans the way they did if they didn’t break from the confines of existing continuity to some degree. Honestly, the same thing happens a lot in comic books. That said, I have a feeling that if you are truly a stickler for continuity and consistency, the next episode of What If is likely going to seriously anger some fans. The set up with Dark Doctor Strange in the end seems destined to create more paradoxes and inconsistencies regarding power-levels. I’m just grateful that outside of the vocal minority, most of the fans have been able to have fun with the series and accept it for what it is. To be honest, I wish they had just confirmed that the What If episodes were completely not connected to the main MCU. Like they eventually did with Agents of SHIELD. Once they distanced themselves from AOS it was able to fully bloom as its own show. That they tried to tie-in these What If shows to the main continuity is what makes them kinda messy. Admittedly, I didn’t pay attention to all of the marketing associated with the pre-launch of the show. Before seeing any advertising, I initially thought that this show was going to be tightly coupled with the MCU because they were exploring the multiverse in Loki and in Spider-Man: No Way Home. I thought it would be an obvious and logical connection. I was a bit surprised to find that all three series and feature films had nothing to do with each other. Spider-Man No Way home features the multiverse but it’s based on magic. Loki features the multiverse and it’s based on science (and some magic). What If episodes feature the multiverse, but it’s tied together by an omnipresent being who can see different outcomes. Even though all three series and films have the same basic premise, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I’m guessing people thought that this series would be more closely related to the MCU because we’re all trained to think that way at this point. This series is really Marvel Studios first attempt at creating MCU related content to leverage the brand without all the baggage of deep interconnectivity. We are likely going to get more content like this starting with content made explicitly for kids.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 6, 2021 14:32:29 GMT
The finale was cool. It seemed a bit more thought-out. The last two episodes are easily better than a lot of recent DC animated features I've seen. Not too big on continuity and consistency as previously established, but it was entertaining. Now that it’s over, I think it's plain to see this series was never intended to crossover or connect with the live-action MCU. This is pure Elseworlds storytelling.
I'll probably enjoy this more than some "Sinister Six" randos "crossing over" to fight five Spider-Men in No Way Home. At least this team was consciously assembled.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 7, 2021 18:25:28 GMT
Ok so I actually liked that episode. Almost good enough to make the other episodes forgivable. Their consistency is still sh*t and there's still massive plotholes, but at least the story telling was a lot more satisfying (at least for its runtime).
Action was some of the best I've seen for animation. And I might have been too harsh on Captain Marvel in the previous episode, as it seems they gave her time to shine there since she was mostly absent here. Thor was almost too annoying. Almost. Strange was awesome and I surprisingly warmed up to Captain Carter.
I do wish we had gotten to see more of Loki from Earth, since that seemed like the only episode without a representative in the finale.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 7, 2021 18:38:40 GMT
The finale was cool. It seemed a bit more thought-out. The last two episodes are easily better than a lot of recent DC animated features I've seen. Not too big on continuity and consistency as previously established, but it was entertaining. Now that it’s over, I think it's plain to see this series was never intended to crossover or connect with the live-action MCU. This is pure Elseworlds storytelling. I'll probably enjoy this more than some "Sinister Six" randos "crossing over" to fight five Spider-Men in No Way Home. At least this team was consciously assembled. Agreed. If anything it exists to make the audience more comfortable with the idea of the multiverse. I don't think any of the actual content will bleed over into the MCU proper. In the end the show is what I thought it would be. It's fine throwaway entertainment, easily digested. I don't enjoy it nearly as much as the live action MCU, but I'm not supposed to. Just take it for what it is and have some fun with it.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 8, 2021 15:38:51 GMT
The finale was cool. It seemed a bit more thought-out. The last two episodes are easily better than a lot of recent DC animated features I've seen. Not too big on continuity and consistency as previously established, but it was entertaining. Now that it’s over, I think it's plain to see this series was never intended to crossover or connect with the live-action MCU. This is pure Elseworlds storytelling. I'll probably enjoy this more than some "Sinister Six" randos "crossing over" to fight five Spider-Men in No Way Home. At least this team was consciously assembled. Agreed. If anything it exists to make the audience more comfortable with the idea of the multiverse. I don't think any of the actual content will bleed over into the MCU proper. In the end the show is what I thought it would be. It's fine throwaway entertainment, easily digested. I don't enjoy it nearly as much as the live action MCU, but I'm not supposed to. Just take it for what it is and have some fun with it. I really don’t want to come off as an apologist for the show. There were many minor and major inconsistencies that irked me throughout several of the episodes. That said, some of the more critical fans are starting to sound like they think the show was a complete failure. It truly begs the question, why did you continue to watch it if it was so egregious? It occurred to me that if you critique the show from the vantage point of being a “cartoon,” it’s actually quite exceptional for what it is. I don’t think I’ve seen an animated feature that was even half as tightly coupled to its source material as What If. If you treat it more like some sort of continuation of the live action films, it’s true, this series falls short of the overall quality of the live-action MCU. I still contend that the nature of What If allows for some latitude with regard to continuity and consistency. The comic book version was created so that writers and artists could temporarily escape the confines of mainline continuity and explore radical new ideas.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 8, 2021 15:59:31 GMT
Agreed. If anything it exists to make the audience more comfortable with the idea of the multiverse. I don't think any of the actual content will bleed over into the MCU proper. In the end the show is what I thought it would be. It's fine throwaway entertainment, easily digested. I don't enjoy it nearly as much as the live action MCU, but I'm not supposed to. Just take it for what it is and have some fun with it. I really don’t want to come off as an apologist for the show. There were many minor and major inconsistencies that irked me throughout several of the episodes. That said, some of the more critical fans are starting to sound like they think the show was a complete failure. It truly begs the question, why did you continue to watch it if it was so egregious? It occurred to me that if you critique the show from the vantage point of being a “cartoon,” it’s actually quite exceptional for what it is. I don’t think I’ve seen an animated feature that was even half as tightly coupled to its source material as What If. If you treat it more like some sort of continuation of the live action films, it’s true, this series falls short of the overall quality of the live-action MCU. I still contend that the nature of What If allows for some latitude with regard to continuity and consistency. The comic book version was created so that writers and artists could temporarily escape the confines of mainline continuity and explore radical new ideas. This is a case of the MCU being a victim of their own success. Because even the worst MCU movie is generally a step or two above your average summer blockbuster. They adhere to a (seemingly) above-average quality control with a certain amount of attention to detail to keep them interconnected. The Disney+ shows were marketed as part of the MCU continuity, with the same executive team making decisions about it. The What If series is still supposed to be part of the MCU, further supported by the fact that majority of the voice acting is done by the actual character's actors. Personally, I wouldn't mind the inconsistencies as much if they seemed intentional. If they were clearly changed because of the alternate universe concept. But a number of the inconsistencies seemed more like a simple lack of attention to detail, and that's not something we're used to seeing with the MCU. MCU products are normally more polished, whereas a number of the writing here felt sloppy and lazy. Like you said, compared to your average cartoons this show is actually way above average. And I can definitely appreciate them from that front. But as an MCU product, I guess I was just expecting better. Though for what it's worth, the Loki series felt even sloppier IMO.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 8, 2021 19:08:14 GMT
So now that season 1 is done, how would you rank the episodes? My ranking has changed a bit after thinking about the episodes some more, currently they look like this:
1. Episode 9 (Finale) 2. Episode 3 (Loki beats up Yellow Jacket) 3. Episode 8 (Infinity-stone Ultron) 4. Episode 4 (Evil Dr. Strange) 5. Episode 6 (Killmonger kills Stark) 6. Episode 5 (Zombies) 7. Episode 1 (Captain Carter) 8. Episode 2 (T'challa Starlord) 9. Episode 7 (Party Thor)
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 8, 2021 19:38:10 GMT
1. What If... the Watcher Broke His Oath? 2. What If... Ultron Won? 3. What If... Killmonger Rescued Tony Stark? 4. What If... Zombies?! 5. What If... Doctor Strange Lost His Heart Instead of His Hands? 6. What If... the World Lost Its Mightiest Heroes? 7. What If... Captain Carter Were the First Avenger? 8. What If... T'Challa Became a Star-Lord? 9. What If... Thor Were an Only Child?
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