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Post by Admin on Sept 11, 2021 4:27:58 GMT
Just off the top of my head, I am damn sick and tired of politely ignoring believers efforts to convince me that their religion is the right religion, and that includes the offering of prayers for a known non-believer. In fact, I think it is mean. I have one friend who no longer is polite; she tells them what she thinks, whether they want to hear it or not. She tells them why she is not a believer and she doesn't mince words. Why do we atheists have to be polite to someone telling us what to believe? Her aunt offered the explanation, at my friend's brother's funeral, that this was all part of God's plan. My friend had politely passed it off at each of her parents' funerals, but this time she blew. "So God has some plan that involves taking a father away from his children? Your god doesn't sound very nice to me, in fact kind of cruel." It caused quite the rift in the family; the aunt wrote that side of the family out of her will and told them that she had. Atheists don't pester people going door to door to convert people. Atheists rarely even mention their belief system, or lack thereof, to anyone, except on a forum like this. We know that if we did talk about it, no one would politely ignore it, there would be a fist fight. And it is all over a belief for which there is no evidence. It is all about believing a mythology, of which there are many. It's like fighting over whether "Star Wars" or "Star Trek" has the better mythology. So, believe whatever you want to believe, and let me not believe, without being badgered. Someone prayed for someone to get better. That's all. There's no badgering here. Whether or not you believe in God is irrelevant. And nobody is trying to convert you. The hostility is unnecessary. Thanks for the chat.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 11, 2021 4:45:11 GMT
No, to simply wish them well is to say, "you are in my thoughts, is there anything I can do to help and I hope things get better." Better yet, "Call me if I can help in any way." Praying is inherently religious. How would you feel if you were sick, and someone said that their Satanic cult would sacrifice an infant for you? Did you really just equate a prayer for someone to get better with infanticide? Aztecs sacrificed infants all the time, to ensure a good harvest. Certain variations of native religions sacrifice goats and other animals. History is awash in the blood of people who were martyred for their beliefs, just plain killed for their beliefs and it's all over a belief that has no evidence to support it. I've been a student of comparative religion for decades, trying to figure out why humans need to believe in a god. Hindu wives were expected to throw themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres, a practice called suttee. Religions have sanctioned all kinds of cruelty over the ages, we aren't just looking at bland old American Christianity, here. My comparison may seem extreme to you, but essentially it is about "my soul, my life, my choice." If people can refuse a clearly beneficial vaccination by saying "my body, my choice", why can't a woman have an abortion? Is it not her body, her choice? Religion, belief, is a choice. You get to choose what you believe, that is why freedom of religion is written into the Constitution. That is why there is this huge fight over abortion rights, some people believe that abortion is infanticide, their religion tells them so. And they want to make other people follow the same rules. That is why this was intended to be a secular society, not a theocracy.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 11, 2021 5:43:08 GMT
Just off the top of my head, I am damn sick and tired of politely ignoring believers efforts to convince me that their religion is the right religion, and that includes the offering of prayers for a known non-believer. In fact, I think it is mean. I have one friend who no longer is polite; she tells them what she thinks, whether they want to hear it or not. She tells them why she is not a believer and she doesn't mince words. Why do we atheists have to be polite to someone telling us what to believe? Her aunt offered the explanation, at my friend's brother's funeral, that this was all part of God's plan. My friend had politely passed it off at each of her parents' funerals, but this time she blew. "So God has some plan that involves taking a father away from his children? Your god doesn't sound very nice to me, in fact kind of cruel." It caused quite the rift in the family; the aunt wrote that side of the family out of her will and told them that she had. Atheists don't pester people going door to door to convert people. Atheists rarely even mention their belief system, or lack thereof, to anyone, except on a forum like this. We know that if we did talk about it, no one would politely ignore it, there would be a fist fight. And it is all over a belief for which there is no evidence. It is all about believing a mythology, of which there are many. It's like fighting over whether "Star Wars" or "Star Trek" has the better mythology. So, believe whatever you want to believe, and let me not believe, without being badgered. Someone prayed for someone to get better. That's all. There's no badgering here. Whether or not you believe in God is irrelevant. And nobody is trying to convert you. The hostility is unnecessary. Thanks for the chat. Someone prayed for someone to get better, even though that person had requested that no prayers were wanted. His request was not honored. How disrespectful of the person who prayed.
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Post by Admin on Sept 11, 2021 5:45:38 GMT
Someone prayed for someone to get better. That's all. There's no badgering here. Whether or not you believe in God is irrelevant. And nobody is trying to convert you. The hostility is unnecessary. Thanks for the chat. Someone prayed for someone to get better, even though that person had requested that no prayers were wanted. His request was not honored. How disrespectful of the person who prayed. If it's about disrespect, the prayer itself is irrelevant.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 11, 2021 5:47:49 GMT
Someone prayed for someone to get better, even though that person had requested that no prayers were wanted. His request was not honored. How disrespectful of the person who prayed. If it's about disrespect, the prayer itself is irrelevant. If the person who prayed kept that fact to himself. But he clearly let the sick person know that he was praying for him. THAT is the disrespect.
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Post by Admin on Sept 11, 2021 5:50:31 GMT
If it's about disrespect, the prayer itself is irrelevant. If the person who prayed kept that fact to himself. But he clearly let the sick person know that he was praying for him. THAT is the disrespect. Ok, so what? Why does that necessitate therapy?
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Post by Admin on Sept 11, 2021 6:12:44 GMT
If prayers are nothing but empty words (and I'm not saying they aren't), how can they hurt? If someone needs therapy because someone prayed for them in times of trouble, I suspect deeper issues are at play. Would you welcome a Muslim Imam in full robes and turban praying over you? Especially if your Christian friends are watching? I can't think of any reason why not, but I was under the impression that the prayer in question was not done by a clergy in full garb while standing over him at his deathbed.
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Post by rizdek on Sept 11, 2021 9:10:59 GMT
Would you appreciate if someone told you they were going to pray to....Satan for you health when you asked them not to? I mean...you might not care and assume it's just them trying to be nice in the only way they know how. To pray for someone just means to wish them well, and whether or not it's an "actual" prayer doesn't change that. If someone wants to "pray to Satan" for me (ie, 'being nice in the only way they know how'), then I'll just say thank you and be on my way. There's no victim here. And that is how I react when someone says they'll pray for me...because I realize they are just trying to be nice. But I DO imagine some who would take offense at being offered prayer is the name of Satan or Demons and believe Satan worshipers should probably keep it to themselves.
So if someone is offended by those who offer them prayer, the Christian thing to do is 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you." IOW don't do something to them they prefer you not do if you would prefer others not do for you things you don't want done.
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Post by Admin on Sept 11, 2021 9:21:28 GMT
To pray for someone just means to wish them well, and whether or not it's an "actual" prayer doesn't change that. If someone wants to "pray to Satan" for me (ie, 'being nice in the only way they know how'), then I'll just say thank you and be on my way. There's no victim here. And that is how I react when someone says they'll pray for me...because I realize they are just trying to be nice. But I DO imagine some who would take offense at being offered prayer is the name of Satan or Demons and believe Satan worshipers should probably keep it to themselves.
So if someone is offended by those who offer them prayer, the Christian thing to do is 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you." IOW don't do something to them they prefer you not do if you would prefer others not do for you things you don't want done. It's also how the guy in the OP could have reacted. Taking offense doesn't necessarily mean offense was given.
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Post by rizdek on Sept 11, 2021 9:42:02 GMT
And that is how I react when someone says they'll pray for me...because I realize they are just trying to be nice. But I DO imagine some who would take offense at being offered prayer is the name of Satan or Demons and believe Satan worshipers should probably keep it to themselves.
So if someone is offended by those who offer them prayer, the Christian thing to do is 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you." IOW don't do something to them they prefer you not do if you would prefer others not do for you things you don't want done. It's also how the guy in the OP could have reacted . Taking offense doesn't necessarily mean offense was given. If a request was made not to do it...and the praying person says they're going to do it anyways after being told it was offensive, then offense is given and intentionally so. Why does the praying person even need to TELL anyone they are praying for them? There is an answer to that, see if you get it right?
It's for one of two reasons...one, they may genuinely want to know if the person wants prayer. In which case they get their answer and that's that.
Or two, it's because the praying person hopes the patient being told they are being prayed for will make them feel better, and often that is true. So that means insisting they're going to pray over objections is counter to the purpose. It won't make the person feel better.
But in any case....it's NOT because telling them they are being prayed for is in any way necessary for prayer to work...right? So it's the telling them and insisting they're going to do it over objections that is offensive. And if the praying person does it anyways, then they obviously aren't doing it to make the person feel better and they believe it is more important to have their way and get to tell what they're doing than it is to follow someone else's wishes. And that is being selfish.
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Post by Admin on Sept 11, 2021 10:04:36 GMT
It's also how the guy in the OP could have reacted . Taking offense doesn't necessarily mean offense was given.If a request was made not to do it...and the praying person says they're going to do it anyways after being told it was offensive, then offense is given and intentionally so. Why does the praying person even need to TELL anyone they are praying for them? There is an answer to that, see if you get it right? It's for one of two reasons...one, they may genuinely want to know if the person wants prayer. In which case they get their answer and that's that.
Or two, it's because the praying person hopes the patient being told they are being prayed for will make them feel better, and often that is true. So that means insisting they're going to pray over objections is counter to the purpose. It won't make the person feel better.
But in any case....it's NOT because telling them they are being prayed for is in any way necessary for prayer to work...right? So it's the telling them and insisting they're going to do it over objections that is offensive. And if the praying person does it anyways, then they obviously aren't doing it to make the person feel better and they believe it is more important to have their way and get to tell what they're doing than it is to follow someone else's wishes. And that is being selfish.
If it's about being offended, the fact that it was a prayer should be inconsequential. But somehow I don't think we'd even know about this if it was an unwanted get well card.
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Post by rizdek on Sept 11, 2021 10:07:58 GMT
If a request was made not to do it...and the praying person says they're going to do it anyways after being told it was offensive, then offense is given and intentionally so. Why does the praying person even need to TELL anyone they are praying for them? There is an answer to that, see if you get it right? It's for one of two reasons...one, they may genuinely want to know if the person wants prayer. In which case they get their answer and that's that.
Or two, it's because the praying person hopes the patient being told they are being prayed for will make them feel better, and often that is true. So that means insisting they're going to pray over objections is counter to the purpose. It won't make the person feel better.
But in any case....it's NOT because telling them they are being prayed for is in any way necessary for prayer to work...right? So it's the telling them and insisting they're going to do it over objections that is offensive. And if the praying person does it anyways, then they obviously aren't doing it to make the person feel better and they believe it is more important to have their way and get to tell what they're doing than it is to follow someone else's wishes. And that is being selfish.
If it's about being offended, the fact that it was a prayer should be inconsequential. But somehow I don't think we'd even know about this if it was an unwanted get well card. I think it would. But how many 'ask' if it's ok to send a card? IF someone asked for 'no cards' and someone sent a card anyways knowing it was unwanted it would be offensive.
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Post by Admin on Sept 11, 2021 10:27:21 GMT
If it's about being offended, the fact that it was a prayer should be inconsequential. But somehow I don't think we'd even know about this if it was an unwanted get well card. I think it would. But how many 'ask' if it's ok to send a card? IF someone asked for 'no cards' and someone sent a card anyways knowing it was unwanted it would be offensive. I agree, but you're missing the point of the analogy. If the issue is being offended, it shouldn't matter if it came in the form of a prayer, a get well card, or flowers sent to a funeral with an "in lieu of flowers..." request.
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Post by Stammerhead on Sept 11, 2021 10:52:02 GMT
He could have just said thanks. WTF is wrong with people, indeed. Sometimes people get crabby when they’re not feeling well. 
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 11, 2021 15:24:52 GMT
It's also how the guy in the OP could have reacted . Taking offense doesn't necessarily mean offense was given.If a request was made not to do it...and the praying person says they're going to do it anyways after being told it was offensive, then offense is given and intentionally so. Why does the praying person even need to TELL anyone they are praying for them? There is an answer to that, see if you get it right?
It's for one of two reasons...one, they may genuinely want to know if the person wants prayer. In which case they get their answer and that's that.
Or two, it's because the praying person hopes the patient being told they are being prayed for will make them feel better, and often that is true. So that means insisting they're going to pray over objections is counter to the purpose. It won't make the person feel better.
But in any case....it's NOT because telling them they are being prayed for is in any way necessary for prayer to work...right? So it's the telling them and insisting they're going to do it over objections that is offensive. And if the praying person does it anyways, then they obviously aren't doing it to make the person feel better and they believe it is more important to have their way and get to tell what they're doing, than it is to follow someone else's wishes. And that is being selfish.
^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^
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Post by Admin on Sept 12, 2021 0:28:09 GMT
I can't think of any reason why not, but I was under the impression that the prayer in question was not done by a clergy in full garb while standing over him at his deathbed. You’re very ecumenical, but I doubt many Christians would be that tolerant. I find many forms of prayer particularly offensive and would be very insulted if some types of “Christians” attempted against my wishes to pray to their God, whom I consider to be Mammon, for my recovery. Ecumenical? Me? lmao. Paul, I'm not interested in unifying religions; I'd prefer they be eliminated. But that doesn't mean I'm going to choose to be offended because a Muslim prayed for me...yes, even if I specifically asked him not to. So all of this is happening because some dude was insulted and offended? Holy smokes. /exit
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Post by Admin on Sept 12, 2021 3:25:11 GMT
Ecumenical? Me? lmao. Paul, I'm not interested in unifying religions; I'd prefer they be eliminated. But that doesn't mean I'm going to choose to be offended because a Muslim prayed for me...yes, even if I specifically asked him not to. So all of this is happening because some dude was insulted and offended? Holy smokes. /exit You will fight over the most stupid shit to avoid talking about the topic. And you are offended that some dude is offended. Well, if we're going to talk about each other now, I will say you're a moron if that's what you really think. I'll also add a bit of advice: Talk only about what you know, and if you don't know, ask. KK thx bye.
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Post by Admin on Sept 12, 2021 4:09:22 GMT
Well, if we're going to talk about each other now, I will say you're a moron if that's what you really think. I'll also add a bit of advice: Talk only about what you know, and if you don't know, ask. KK thx bye. Both of us are arguing over an opinion about something that will never happen to either of us. So how stupid is that? Things like this happen to us all the time, Paul. If I could stop the world every time someone did something I asked them not to, we'd all be about 20 years younger. The prayer guy offended the cancer guy, the cancer guy didn't like it, and again I ask... So what? The only reason we're even hearing about it is because it was a prayer, which is apparently irrelevant. Are people being granted the right to never be offended?
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Post by Admin on Sept 12, 2021 4:35:39 GMT
Things like this happen to us all the time, Paul. If I could stop the world every time someone did something I asked them not to, we'd all be about 20 years younger. The prayer guy offended the cancer guy, the cancer guy didn't like it, and again I ask... So what? The only reason we're even hearing about it is because it was a prayer, which is apparently irrelevant. Are people being granted the right to never be offended? People being offended is the reason for many battles and wars. Like I said, being offended what we like to do best nowadays. Ok, but that doesn't entitle us to anything.
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Post by Admin on Sept 12, 2021 4:46:42 GMT
Ok, but that doesn't entitle us to anything. Tell that to the Trump voters who think the election was stolen and are destroying the nation out of pure spite. I'll tell it to the cancer guy. And you next time you try to have me removed as admin of this forum because of the offense you took over your belief that I was trying to make you go to church. See what I mean? It happens to us all the time. People get offended for whatever reason and feel entitled to some form of retribution. And that's why we're hearing the cancer guy's story.
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