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Post by Admin on Oct 29, 2021 4:25:34 GMT
Two attempts at life, then? Do we get to try until we get it right? I'm just saying that if you get more than one chance, why not splurge a little bit? Is there some other reason you might not want to open fire in a crowded movie theater? Reading comprehension is not your strong point huh? So I'm a bit slow. Don't be mean. I thought you were talking about universal salvation, to which my response is generally something along the lines of: "Cool! Get my gun." Does everyone eventually make it to this paradise you believe in? Or does it not have a good God™? And please, don't use big words. Thanks.
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Post by gadreel on Oct 29, 2021 17:12:01 GMT
Reading comprehension is not your strong point huh? So I'm a bit slow. Don't be mean. I thought you were talking about universal salvation, to which my response is generally something along the lines of: "Cool! Get my gun." Does everyone eventually make it to this paradise you believe in? Or does it not have a good God™? And please, don't use big words. Thanks. I dont think you are slow. I am talking about universal salvation, sure get your gun it will avail you nothing all you do is inhibit your progress toward actualisation. Eventually yes, all things work their way back up the process to unity, which is paradise.
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Post by gadreel on Oct 29, 2021 17:13:18 GMT
Two attempts at life, then? Do we get to try until we get it right? I'm just saying that if you get more than one chance, why not splurge a little bit? Is there some other reason you might not want to open fire in a crowded movie theater? What’s wrong with that? It does seem much more fair. A person just born to the wrong family can easily lead to eternal damnation in the Christian salvation system. Eastern religions teach reincarnation and their evidence for it is as solid as any Christian’s or Muslim’s for Heaven and Hell. Judaism does have some space in their theology for reincarnation, though there is no set dogma on Heaven or Hell. These are mostly Christian inventions. And plenty of Jesus believing Christians commit mass murder. I know for a fact you are more educated on this matter than I, but my understanding is that Christianity has had (and in some circles still has ) a doctrine of rebirth.
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Post by Admin on Oct 29, 2021 17:50:57 GMT
So I'm a bit slow. Don't be mean. I thought you were talking about universal salvation, to which my response is generally something along the lines of: "Cool! Get my gun." Does everyone eventually make it to this paradise you believe in? Or does it not have a good God™? And please, don't use big words. Thanks. I dont think you are slow. I am talking about universal salvation, sure get your gun it will avail you nothing all you do is inhibit your progress toward actualisation. Eventually yes, all things work their way back up the process to unity, which is paradise. If universal salvation, then ultimately speaking, it doesn’t really matter what you do. You might get your wrist slapped a few times along the way, but so what?
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Post by gadreel on Oct 29, 2021 18:20:27 GMT
I know for a fact you are more educated on this matter than I, but my understanding is that Christianity has had (and in some circles still has ) a doctrine of rebirth. Not reincarnation. In Christianity, the human soul is created at conception along with the body. And anyone who commits one cardinal sin after birth in their entire life must go to Hell when they die as no sin may come before the Father in Heaven. And in some parts of the religion even being born is a sin, the Original Sin, so…. So reincarnation goes against the very point of Jesus coming into the world to save mankind from the impossible task of not going Hell. So “rebirth” is being reborn into a new life with Jesus Christ where sins are forgiven and/or covered by the blood offering sacrifice of Jesus and salvation from Hell is possible. Hmm that is interesting, i think that is the mainstream Christian view certainly, although apparently many modern Christians reject that ( www.americamagazine.org/faith/2015/10/21/25-percent-us-christians-believe-reincarnation-whats-wrong-picture), although having said that this particular author regards that teaching as not Christian. So I see that in fact a number of sects if Christianity do believe in reincarnation, cathars and gnostics for example. I dont know that I am what most people would call a Christian (and in fact a number of people here have told me I am not), but I do get most of my belief from writings derived from Christianity. My problem here with one life is as I have said before, it makes zero sense for a good god™ to punish people eternally for a 70 year attempt at getting it right, which of course ignores all the people who die early, and all the people who never encountered the 'right' religion (because clearly you also have to get the right Christian sect too). I just cant see a good god™ condemning people like that. I have been reading a lot of, well I guess christian inspired teachings and I see a similarity in your being reborn into a new life, that the story of Jesus death is not the salvation of humanity by the shedding of the blood of christ, but instead an analogy of our rebirth into a more awakened state of living by transcending our sins.. I accept that this is not Mainstream Christianity, but I also think that mainstream Christianity has well and truly lost it's way. Perhaps I am not really a Christian, certainly I may have been burnt at the stake in earlier centuries.
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Post by gadreel on Oct 29, 2021 18:23:16 GMT
I dont think you are slow. I am talking about universal salvation, sure get your gun it will avail you nothing all you do is inhibit your progress toward actualisation. Eventually yes, all things work their way back up the process to unity, which is paradise. If universal salvation, then ultimately speaking, it doesn’t really matter what you do. You might get your wrist slapped a few times along the way, but so what? Just to be clear, because you can heal from wounds, you are happy to stab yourself with a knife a few times along the way because 'so what'??
I will say it one more time, after that it is clear you are being willfully ignorant. THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR WRONG ACTION. I just do not believe that a good god™ would make those consequences eternal. (why are you finding that explicit statement I have made more than once so hard to ingest?)
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Oct 29, 2021 18:28:59 GMT
I know for a fact you are more educated on this matter than I, but my understanding is that Christianity has had (and in some circles still has ) a doctrine of rebirth. Not reincarnation. In Christianity, the human soul is created at conception along with the body. And anyone who commits one cardinal sin after birth in their entire life must go to Hell when they die as no sin may come before the Father in Heaven. And in some parts of the religion even being born is a sin, the Original Sin, so…. So reincarnation goes against the very point of Jesus coming into the world to save mankind from the impossible task of not going Hell. So “rebirth” is being reborn into a new life with Jesus Christ where sins are forgiven and/or covered by the blood offering sacrifice of Jesus and salvation from Hell is possible. So basically, you get one shot at it with Christianity, and Hinduism gives you more lifetimes to get it figured out? Never made complete sense to me, even as a kid. All a lot of speculation to deny the one observable fact we know - we all die.
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Post by gadreel on Oct 29, 2021 18:38:38 GMT
Just to be clear, because you can heal from wounds, you are happy to stab yourself with a knife a few times along the way because 'so what'??
I will say it one more time, after that it is clear you are being willfully ignorant. THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR WRONG ACTION. I just do not believe that a good god™ would make those consequences eternal. (why are you finding that explicit statement I have made more than once so hard to ingest?)
Thing is the believers in God are far more likely to do evil than the non-believers. That’s “write” there in the history books, can’t get out of that fact. So, obviously the fear of eternal Hell is no deterrent from being evil, especially if they’re religious, it seems. Actually the most religious seem to be evil as hell. Yeah Christianity as an organised religion has a lot to answer for, the doctrine of absolute forgiveness for a one time acceptance of Jesus allows Hitler to charge on up to heaven on his death bed (well death ditch), and that is fucking problematic, which is why (maybe not in the light of mainstream christianity), reincarnation makes sense, we set ourselves up in what ever manner and slowly slowly we work out or kinks and evil until we gain enlightenement, but I dont want to two threads going on about that, i get easily confused Certainly modern Christianity seems to be the evil that Lavey railed against (just to be clear Lavey is a hack, but he got one thing right) where he would see men getting hookers then in church the next day with their family getting forgiven their sins. that Doctrine is the doctrine of a free ride, it seems much more reasonable and in line with what I understand Jesus to be attributed as saying that infact we need to work at our salvation and put effort into our forgiveness. Christianity is of course also used as a cult tool, I dont think it is a surprise that most of the 'evil' cults in the world are christian based, Gary Oldman in Eli says it well when he talks about the words of the bible being able to control men.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Oct 29, 2021 19:16:16 GMT
So basically, you get one shot at it with Christianity, and Hinduism gives you more lifetimes to get it figured out? Never made complete sense to me, even as a kid. All a lot of speculation to deny the one observable fact we know - we all die. Catholicism is a bit kinder in that they invented confession and Purgatory to deal with God being such an asshole. If a person at least tried to do good, they could burn the sins still on their souls at death for a time in purgatory, before going perfect and blemish-less before the Almighty. Then the antibaptists later evangelicals came up with the belief in Jesus and his salvation as the blood Jesus (God) shed on Calvary literally covers up their sins up so they can be perfect and blemish-less before the Father (also God). See, even that 'don't make no sense'. Jesus on the cross died for our sins, the blood shed was a sacrifice. He didn't die! He is supposed to still be alive! How is that a sacrifice? They could have just bled him a bit, like they used to do with fractious horses. He died on the cross but didn't really die? I have never understood that conundrum, and every time I asked, the subject was deflected.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Oct 29, 2021 19:27:33 GMT
See, even that 'don't make no sense'. Jesus on the cross died for our sins, the blood shed was a sacrifice. He didn't die! He is supposed to still be alive! How is that a sacrifice? They could have just bled him a bit, like they used to do with fractious horses. He died on the cross but didn't really die? I have never understood that conundrum, and every time I asked, the subject was deflected. And God did it to himself, so he must have felt pretty bad for all the millions of souls burning in Hell because of Adam and Eve fuck up before he decided to make up for it all. I mean killing the planet with the Great Flood, then sending them all to Hell…that’s cold treatment towards bunch of poor, ignorant Neolithic hunters-gathers. We were set up to fail. Our 'god' must have been a teenager at the time, not thought things thru, then just abandoned his science project.
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Post by Admin on Oct 29, 2021 21:32:08 GMT
If universal salvation, then ultimately speaking, it doesn’t really matter what you do. You might get your wrist slapped a few times along the way, but so what? Just to be clear, because you can heal from wounds, you are happy to stab yourself with a knife a few times along the way because 'so what'?? I will say it one more time, after that it is clear you are being willfully ignorant. THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR WRONG ACTION. I just do not believe that a good god™ would make those consequences eternal. (why are you finding that explicit statement I have made more than once so hard to ingest?)
Ingested, digested, and shat out. But there’s a problem with the corn. Do you know what “ultimately” means?
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Post by Admin on Oct 29, 2021 21:46:08 GMT
I know for a fact you are more educated on this matter than I, but my understanding is that Christianity has had (and in some circles still has ) a doctrine of rebirth. Not reincarnation. In Christianity, the human soul is created at conception along with the body. And anyone who commits one cardinal sin after birth in their entire life must go to Hell when they die as no sin may come before the Father in Heaven. And in some parts of the religion even being born is a sin, the Original Sin, so…. So reincarnation goes against the very point of Jesus coming into the world to save mankind from the impossible task of not going Hell. So “rebirth” is being reborn into a new life with Jesus Christ where sins are forgiven and/or covered by the blood offering sacrifice of Jesus and salvation from Hell is possible. Universal damnation, then?
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Post by Admin on Oct 29, 2021 22:03:14 GMT
Universal damnation, then? That’s what Original Sin means. If you say so. Sucks to be a dead baby, I reckon.
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Post by Admin on Oct 29, 2021 22:08:15 GMT
If you say so. Sucks to be a dead baby, I reckon. It knows no more dead than it did before it was alive. Does that mean it isn't damned?
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Post by Admin on Oct 29, 2021 22:49:55 GMT
Does that mean it isn't damned? I have no idea, I’m simply humorously telling you how Christians have handled the subject. Generally, when the faithful start questioning the church’s dogma, the churchmen usually clamp down on free thought by telling them if you even question us, you’re going to Hell. And my beliefs in the afterworld are as solid as yours or anyone else’s. No, you were talking about Christianity and how we're all sinners from the very moment we're born and that it's impossible to avoid eternal damnation.
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Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2021 5:20:33 GMT
No, you were talking about Christianity and how we're all sinners from the very moment we're born and that it's impossible to avoid eternal damnation. That’s what Original Sin means. The Sacrament of Baptism washes this sin away, hence infant baptism. The doctrine itself was dumped by Evangelicals when they developed the believer’s baptism. So there exists two distinct versions of salvation within Christianity. And universal salvation is something the church doctors have long grappled with. imdb2.freeforums.net/post/5050493/thread
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Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2021 5:36:21 GMT
These are church doctors and theologians not bishops. Only the bishops can set doctrine and rule on it. The Church is not a democracy. So no gotcha. imdb2.freeforums.net/post/5051432/threadNo gotchas. Just deja vu. Paul, do you think Catholicism is Christianity?
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Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2021 6:11:24 GMT
Sure. The RCC and most Protestant churches agree on the fundamentals. Below is the Apostle Creeds. If you can say yes to all this, you are a Christian. Now, do other churches think Catholicism is Christianity? No, some of them don’t. The Protestant Reformation is based in part on the RCC being a false church. I believe in God the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty, from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen. Both Protestants and Catholics agree on the need for salvation, but they have distinct avenues of getting there. Do you suppose they just slipped that in there when nobody was looking?
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Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2021 21:03:07 GMT
Do you suppose they just slipped that in there when nobody was looking? In this case "Catholic" just means universal. Then why doesn't it just say that? No, it isn't. For example: - Refusal to hold to any formal creeds or informal "doctrinal statements" or "statements of faith", stating instead a reliance on the Bible alone for doctrine and practiceen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ#OverviewFurthermore, Christianity is not a religion, let alone a Catholic one. Far too many people think that when they leave the RCC, they are leaving Christianity. That's like saying that if you stop going to Sizzler, you stopped eating meat.
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Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2021 21:17:14 GMT
Then why doesn't it just say that?No, it isn't. For example: - Refusal to hold to any formal creeds or informal "doctrinal statements" or "statements of faith", stating instead a reliance on the Bible alone for doctrine and practiceen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ#OverviewFurthermore, Christianity is not a religion, let alone a Catholic one. Far too many people think that when they leave the RCC, they are leaving Christianity. That's like saying that if you stop going to Sizzler, you stopped eating meat. Gee, you should go argue with a Bishop over that one. Then you can go argue with a stop sign. But I daresay because it’s a translation from the Latin and some Protestant churches do use “universal” instead of Catholic. I think the Methodists do, but I’m not sure. Don’t you wish you knew some things too? Your second paragraph looks like something personal you’re struggling with, either your faith or going vegan, and I’m not qualified to help with that, but more power to you, Chief. I knew it was only a matter of time before you lost your composure. You just can't help yourself, can you? Is this really the first time you've heard anyone say Christianity is not a religion? www.google.com/search?q=christianity+is+not+a+religionI don't call it a "relationship," either, by the way, but the point here is that Catholicism and Christianity are not interchangeable synonyms.
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