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Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2021 21:40:32 GMT
I knew it was only a matter of time before you lost your composure. You just can't help yourself, can you? Is this really the first time you've heard anyone say Christianity is not a religion? www.google.com/search?q=christianity+is+not+a+religionI don't call it a "relationship," either, by the way, but the point here is that Catholicism and Christianity are not interchangeable synonyms. Admin, I’m joking around, okay.  This conversation ended 24 hours ago. But if you need this: Golly, I feel about this big right now. Going forward, you’ve have won all our friendly arguments. Ended? This conversation has barely even begun. But as usual, it's time for you to bail and repeat the same nonsense later in another thread. See you then, friend.
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Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2021 22:37:13 GMT
Ended? This conversation has barely even begun. But as usual, it's time for you to bail and repeat the same nonsense later in another thread. See you then, friend. On scale of 1 to 10, how important is this conversation compared to all of our personal lives in ruins or headed there? If you want talk to me please understand I do heavy sarcasm and am always political incorrect and irreverent. I’ve not presented myself otherwise on this board you so kindly opened up after we got kicked off IMDb in 2017. Thank you for that. I do hope you find your spiritual path, rather than just throw rocks at others on their paths. I suppose it’s about as important as any other topic on this board, which is not all. (Does it need to be?) And I don’t give two shits about your sarcasm, but when that’s all there is, it’s clear that you’ve abandoned the topic, usually in favor of infantile personal bullshit of which you’re almost always completely wrong about. Like now, for example. Later dude. |
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Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2021 23:31:20 GMT
I suppose it’s about as important as any other topic on this board, which is not all. (Does it need to be?) And I don’t give two shits about your sarcasm, but when that’s all there is, it’s clear that you’ve abandoned the topic, usually in favor of infantile personal bullshit of which you’re almost always completely wrong about. Like now, for example. Later dude. If you say so. Wrong again. It's not what I say, Paul: imdb2.freeforums.net/post/5115436/threadThat's where the conversation ended.
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Post by gadreel on Oct 31, 2021 0:09:20 GMT
Just to be clear, because you can heal from wounds, you are happy to stab yourself with a knife a few times along the way because 'so what'?? I will say it one more time, after that it is clear you are being willfully ignorant. THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR WRONG ACTION. I just do not believe that a good god™ would make those consequences eternal. (why are you finding that explicit statement I have made more than once so hard to ingest?)
Ingested, digested, and shat out. But there’s a problem with the corn. Do you know what “ultimately” means? Oh my god, you ARE willfully ignorant. Have fun buddy.
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Post by Admin on Oct 31, 2021 2:23:44 GMT
Ingested, digested, and shat out. But there’s a problem with the corn. Do you know what “ultimately” means? Oh my god, you ARE willfully ignorant. Have fun buddy. You make it hard to not believe that the only reason you wouldn’t go on killing spree is to avoid punishment. |
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Post by Admin on Oct 31, 2021 3:39:27 GMT
You make it hard to not believe that the only reason you wouldn’t go on killing spree is to avoid punishment.  Something on your mind? |
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Post by Admin on Oct 31, 2021 4:28:02 GMT
If it is, then that makes one of us. So you're tossing out random insults, then? If we all ultimately end up in paradise, then those who want to sin (eg, go on a killing spree) can do so for a relative slap on the wrist. It's not a great bargain, but it's on the table. And what of those who don't want to be in this paradise? How long can they delay the inevitable? So many good paths to take with this subject, but both of you just had to be little pricks. What a shame.
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Post by Admin on Oct 31, 2021 5:01:43 GMT
So you're tossing out random insults, then? If we all ultimately end up in paradise, then those who want to sin (eg, go on a killing spree) can do so for a relative slap on the wrist. It's not a great bargain, but it's on the table. And what of those who don't want to be in this paradise? How long can they delay the inevitable? So many good paths to take with this subject, but both of you just had to be little pricks. What a shame. Yes it was going very well until you said this. Furthermore, Christianity is not a religion, let alone a Catholic one. Far too many people think that when they leave the RCC, they are leaving Christianity. That's like saying that if you stop going to Sizzler, you stopped eating meat.
It is anti-Catholic, so I thought you were making a joke and I made one too. You're a day late and a dollar short, Paul. Maybe next time.
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Post by gadreel on Oct 31, 2021 5:18:32 GMT
Oh my god, you ARE willfully ignorant. Have fun buddy. You make it hard to not believe that the only reason you wouldn’t go on killing spree is to avoid punishment. Oh my god, now you know what motivates me towards good action??? Jesus Christ man, is your hubris the result of years of study?
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Post by Admin on Oct 31, 2021 5:55:55 GMT
You make it hard to not believe that the only reason you wouldn’t go on killing spree is to avoid punishment. Oh my god, now you know what motivates me towards good action??? Jesus Christ man, is your hubris the result of years of study? Well, no. That's why I asked. Some other reason, then?
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Post by gadreel on Nov 1, 2021 0:08:28 GMT
Oh my god, now you know what motivates me towards good action??? Jesus Christ man, is your hubris the result of years of study? Well, no. That's why I asked. Some other reason, then? That was the least question formatted question I think I have ever seen. Your soul is damaged from committing acts such as you describe. There are many reasons not to commit 'wrong' acts, the fact that I do not believe in a Hell would be (one assumes) ample evidence that the threat of punishment does not inform my actions.
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Post by Admin on Nov 1, 2021 4:35:07 GMT
Well, no. That's why I asked. Some other reason, then? That was the least question formatted question I think I have ever seen. Would this be better? "Two attempts at life, then? Do we get to try until we get it right? I'm just saying that if you get more than one chance, why not splurge a little bit? Is there some other reason you might not want to open fire in a crowded movie theater?"Yes, you've made that clear several times. There's some other reason. I get it. Thanks.
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Post by gadreel on Nov 1, 2021 17:17:04 GMT
That was the least question formatted question I think I have ever seen. Would this be better? "Two attempts at life, then? Do we get to try until we get it right? I'm just saying that if you get more than one chance, why not splurge a little bit? Is there some other reason you might not want to open fire in a crowded movie theater?"Yes, you've made that clear several times. There's some other reason. I get it. Thanks. Oh sorry, its just you keep on pretending that I think there are no consequences for wrong action despite the fact I have clearly said there is and refer to me as " had to be little pricks", YOU are the willfully ignorant one here and you are just as paul says throwing rocks without any clear thought pattern.
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Post by gadreel on Nov 1, 2021 17:25:33 GMT
That was the least question formatted question I think I have ever seen. Your soul is damaged from committing acts such as you describe. There are many reasons not to commit 'wrong' acts, the fact that I do not believe in a Hell would be (one assumes) ample evidence that the threat of punishment does not inform my actions. How I see it, if the only reason a person avoids doing wrong is out of fear of the most horrific punishment imaginable, then is that morality or virtue? The desires to do wrong is still there trying to manifest itself in other ways just as egregiously wrong, but gets covered up by a lot of righteous looking right. The idea that only believers can behave morally because they fear eternal punishment is so empty, because it is so obviously untrue. Sorry it's early morning and I am still on my first cup of coffee, I guess you are agreeing with me, but I see that my claim that ones soul is damaged could be construed as a form of punishment. I have an issue with the idea that morality is simply chosen because it is the right action, I mean most of us would agree that wanton murder is wrong, but clearly there are some people who differ in their moral outlook, and condone or even commit murder. Im thinking as I am typing but I guess their punishment is actually a consequence rather than a deterrent. Yeah if someone is only motivated by the threat of punishment as a deterrent (as the admin seems to be) then clearly they lack morals, I guess that means their soul (or insert whatever here) is already under some sort of censure for them to be that way anyhow. I reread your last sentence and see the only believers can behave morally . . . yeah this is another huge issue with a number of religiously dogmatic moralists when they insist morality comes from God™ as of course it means that then only their morality is correct. oops maybe a bit ranty/drivelly, will drink coffee.
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Post by gadreel on Nov 1, 2021 17:49:08 GMT
Sorry it's early morning and I am still on my first cup of coffee, I guess you are agreeing with me, but I see that my claim that ones soul is damaged could be construed as a form of punishment. I have an issue with the idea that morality is simply chosen because it is the right action, I mean most of us would agree that wanton murder is wrong, but clearly there are some people who differ in their moral outlook, and condone or even commit murder. Im thinking as I am typing but I guess their punishment is actually a consequence rather than a deterrent. Yeah if someone is only motivated by the threat of punishment as a deterrent (as the admin seems to be) then clearly they lack morals, I guess that means their soul (or insert whatever here) is already under some sort of censure for them to be that way anyhow. I reread your last sentence and see the only believers can behave morally . . . yeah this is another huge issue with a number of religiously dogmatic moralists when they insist morality comes from God™ as of course it means that then only their morality is correct. oops maybe a bit ranty/drivelly, will drink coffee. Not fearing eternal damnation may cause some to behave badly, but most who do not fear one do behave themselves. And our laws are not meant to punish the immoral but criminal as defined by our criminal-justice system. I guess the crux here is "most . . behave themselves" for whatever reason you are right most folk behave, I suppose it's not a great moral high ground if your only reason is that you fear punishment, but at least it keeps them inline. Morality is a strange one, as it canbe so individual, and of course you also get social morality, criminals are deemed immoral by society (mostly, there are some laws that are more contested) so in that way our justice system does punish the immoral as they have broken laws our society uses as a moral code.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Nov 1, 2021 18:22:55 GMT
I guess the crux here is "most . . behave themselves" for whatever reason you are right most folk behave, I suppose it's not a great moral high ground if your only reason is that you fear punishment, but at least it keeps them inline. Morality is a strange one, as it canbe so individual, and of course you also get social morality, criminals are deemed immoral by society (mostly, there are some laws that are more contested) so in that way our justice system does punish the immoral as they have broken laws our society uses as a moral code. And it probably wouldn’t hurt Christians to adopt the Jewish form of atonement for sins…since the 10 Commandment morality code is in the old part of the Bible. Between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, the righteous Jew must go to those he or she sinned against and ask for forgiveness. No rabbi, priest, or the congregation needs to know if they did or not. It’s between the two parties and God. One thing too, Jews do not have a set dogma on the afterlife like Christians. If there is a punishment, it’s death itself, that is extinguishment or immobilization of the soul in Sheol. Wikipedia Sheol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl, /-əl/; Hebrew: שְׁאוֹל Šəʾōl), in the Hebrew Bible, is the place to which the dead go. In Greek translations of the Old Testament and in the Greek New Testament, the equivalent Greek word used is Hades.[1]
The Hebrew Bible describes Sheol as the place of the dead. Every person, whether righteous or unrighteous, goes to Sheol at death.[2] The term for the section of Sheol which was the place of the souls of the righteous until the resurrection was "Paradise".[3] Regardless, all of the dead in Sheol know nothing and none of their personality, consciousness, or connection to the world continue after their death until their bodily resurrection.[2]
Doctrines of immediately departing to heaven or Hell at death are foreign to both the Old and New Testaments of the Biblical text and appear to have come from Hellenistic thought.[2] In the text, Sheol is the destination of all at death, with final rewards and punishments to be given out at the final resurrection[4] as described in passages such as Daniel 12.[5] Interesting, I did not know that.
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Post by gadreel on Nov 1, 2021 20:59:05 GMT
I guess the crux here is "most . . behave themselves" for whatever reason you are right most folk behave, I suppose it's not a great moral high ground if your only reason is that you fear punishment, but at least it keeps them inline. Morality is a strange one, as it canbe so individual, and of course you also get social morality, criminals are deemed immoral by society (mostly, there are some laws that are more contested) so in that way our justice system does punish the immoral as they have broken laws our society uses as a moral code. But this fear factor can work against itself by manifesting as resentment in the moralists. If they must suffer for their righteousness, then the reasons can be why should the unrighteous go unpunished. That’s even grapple with in Job and doesn’t end well for the good him…until God miraculously restores Job’s riches and gets him a new family for his trouble. Anyway, this resentment has taken form in the Crusades, Inquisitions, witch hunts, pogroms, the Holocaust, etc. Just following a set of rules isn’t in itself morality. And as Jesus points out, desire to do a sin is also a sin. So, imagining that someone we hate at work getting hit by a bus we’re driving is the same sin as actually doing it. Yeah as I say it's not a great moral high ground and as you rightly point out it can have bad flow on effects. I am not convinced that imagining a bad act is the same as committing it, yes I accept that it is biblical, but there are a number of things I reject from the bible, as I accept that it is a work written by many different men, a number of whom did not agree. I guess when we are talking of the (hopefully) few who simply follow because of punishment then as good as we can get is as good as we can do. I see your argument re the crusades etc as having resentment being part of it, I would contend that resentment gave them an enemy and that manipulators used that enemy to goad a result. I think that the resentment did play a large part, but I think it was not the only thing that prompted these events.
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Post by gadreel on Nov 1, 2021 21:04:36 GMT
I guess the crux here is "most . . behave themselves" for whatever reason you are right most folk behave, I suppose it's not a great moral high ground if your only reason is that you fear punishment, but at least it keeps them inline. Morality is a strange one, as it canbe so individual, and of course you also get social morality, criminals are deemed immoral by society (mostly, there are some laws that are more contested) so in that way our justice system does punish the immoral as they have broken laws our society uses as a moral code. And it probably wouldn’t hurt Christians to adopt the Jewish form of atonement for sins…since the 10 Commandment morality code is in the old part of the Bible. Between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, the righteous Jew must go to those he or she sinned against and ask for forgiveness. No rabbi, priest, or the congregation needs to know if they did or not. It’s between the two parties and God. One thing too, Jews do not have a set dogma on the afterlife like Christians. If there is a punishment, it’s death itself, that is extinguishment or immobilization of the soul in Sheol. Wikipedia Sheol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl, /-əl/; Hebrew: שְׁאוֹל Šəʾōl), in the Hebrew Bible, is the place to which the dead go. In Greek translations of the Old Testament and in the Greek New Testament, the equivalent Greek word used is Hades.[1]
The Hebrew Bible describes Sheol as the place of the dead. Every person, whether righteous or unrighteous, goes to Sheol at death.[2] The term for the section of Sheol which was the place of the souls of the righteous until the resurrection was "Paradise".[3] Regardless, all of the dead in Sheol know nothing and none of their personality, consciousness, or connection to the world continue after their death until their bodily resurrection.[2]
Doctrines of immediately departing to heaven or Hell at death are foreign to both the Old and New Testaments of the Biblical text and appear to have come from Hellenistic thought.[2] In the text, Sheol is the destination of all at death, with final rewards and punishments to be given out at the final resurrection[4] as described in passages such as Daniel 12.[5] It's funny you mention that, there are a number of Christians I know who champion this under the phrase restorative justice, I DO like the idea, I think that like many things of this ilk there is not a one size fits all, restorative justice wold work for someone who was capable of feeling remorse or having empathy, but not so much for the committed criminals who can morally justify the acts to themselves (like admin who clearly thinks murder is a great afternoon past time). I guess this is the issue with large scale societal justice in general, for example innocent until proven guilty works most times, but sometimes lets the guilty go free as the evidence was not sufficient. This is the payoff we have for a justice system that (hopefully) does not punish wrongly. There are always going to be those that slip through the cracks, but as I type this I find myself agreeing that a lot of Christians (especially the problematic ones like destiny church we have in this country) could do really well by sitting and listening to the people they have hurt.
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Post by gadreel on Nov 1, 2021 21:29:39 GMT
It's funny you mention that, there are a number of Christians I know who champion this under the phrase restorative justice, I DO like the idea, I think that like many things of this ilk there is not a one size fits all, restorative justice wold work for someone who was capable of feeling remorse or having empathy, but not so much for the committed criminals who can morally justify the acts to themselves (like admin who clearly thinks murder is a great afternoon past time). I guess this is the issue with large scale societal justice in general, for example innocent until proven guilty works most times, but sometimes lets the guilty go free as the evidence was not sufficient. This is the payoff we have for a justice system that (hopefully) does not punish wrongly. There are always going to be those that slip through the cracks, but as I type this I find myself agreeing that a lot of Christians (especially the problematic ones like destiny church we have in this country) could do really well by sitting and listening to the people they have hurt.The sin of pride prevents them. True. Christianity seems to be really good at invoking pride, often without reason.
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Post by Admin on Nov 2, 2021 1:13:22 GMT
Would this be better? "Two attempts at life, then? Do we get to try until we get it right? I'm just saying that if you get more than one chance, why not splurge a little bit? Is there some other reason you might not want to open fire in a crowded movie theater?"Yes, you've made that clear several times. There's some other reason. I get it. Thanks. Oh sorry, its just you keep on pretending that I think there are no consequences for wrong action despite the fact I have clearly said there is and refer to me as " had to be little pricks", YOU are the willfully ignorant one here and you are just as paul says throwing rocks without any clear thought pattern. I'm not pretending anything. I was merely asking what informs your actions, but you keep telling me what doesn't. The childish insults you throw into every response is what makes you a little prick.
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This conversation ended 24 hours ago. 
