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Post by gadreel on Mar 5, 2022 2:53:06 GMT
I never made any kind of truth claim, and you are missing the point, there is exactly 0 science that contradicts my belief. I don't know that's true since you haven't revealed to me what you believe, and I don't know how it would be relevant. Maybe you believe nothing. I'm not attacking your beliefs; I'm making statements about irrational belief vs science. As for missing the point, you want me to be wrong, so you say I'm wrong, without addressing my specific statements. You want science and irrational belief to be harmonious, so you say they are, without giving a reasoned argument for why that should be true. What is there to misunderstand? Do you think I disagree because I don't understand? That if I could only understand your point of view then I must agree with you? But how can I understand your point of view if you can't articulate it? You have suddenly started talking about irrational belief as being the belief you are talking about. Obviously I don't think irrational belief is in harmony with science. The simple fact is that many very intelligent people have a "religious" (I have to use that word, you know for a fact I don't mean organised religion, I simply mean belief in a god) belief system, and a number of them are successful scientists, clearly they don't have a problem with the idea that belief in a god has no contradiction with science, not entirely sure what makes you a better judge than them. The argument that belief and science are compatible has already been provided, I already told you, they don't deal in the same thing.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 5, 2022 7:07:32 GMT
I don't know that's true since you haven't revealed to me what you believe, and I don't know how it would be relevant. Maybe you believe nothing. I'm not attacking your beliefs; I'm making statements about irrational belief vs science. As for missing the point, you want me to be wrong, so you say I'm wrong, without addressing my specific statements. You want science and irrational belief to be harmonious, so you say they are, without giving a reasoned argument for why that should be true. What is there to misunderstand? Do you think I disagree because I don't understand? That if I could only understand your point of view then I must agree with you? But how can I understand your point of view if you can't articulate it? You have suddenly started talking about irrational belief as being the belief you are talking about. Obviously I don't think irrational belief is in harmony with science. The simple fact is that many very intelligent people have a "religious" (I have to use that word, you know for a fact I don't mean organised religion, I simply mean belief in a god) belief system, and a number of them are successful scientists, clearly they don't have a problem with the idea that belief in a god has no contradiction with science, not entirely sure what makes you a better judge than them. The argument that belief and science are compatible has already been provided, I already told you, they don't deal in the same thing. You are just restating that you believe it, so it must be true. All of your statements are logical fallacies. Religion and belief are different things but both can be irrational. You would benefit from familiarizing yourself with rhetoric/logic/debate. One of the great things about formal debate is that you are often tasked with arguing for something you disbelieve, or against something you believe, it teaches you how to think critically and structure an argument. I'm not playing devil's advocate about religion/gods, I'm arguing what I believe to be true, but I believe it because I have argued both sides. I challenge my opinions constantly. I anticipate what you will say because I have said it myself. If your beliefs can't stand up to your own scrutiny, you shouldn't accept them.
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Post by mystery on Mar 5, 2022 19:05:54 GMT
I personally don't see any conflict between science and spirituality. One is concerned with the physical, the other with the metaphysical. I don't find it implausible that there are things beyond what our mortal senses can detect, and things that science doesn't have the tools to investigate. I tend to approach my spirituality more like a science than a faith, because I do test myself and try different techniques, and then I look at the results. I really don't have any faith, because everything I believe in is based on personal experience, and confirmed repeatedly. I have no qualms with science, either. I just don't think it necessarily has all the answers.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 5, 2022 21:39:35 GMT
You have suddenly started talking about irrational belief as being the belief you are talking about. Obviously I don't think irrational belief is in harmony with science. The simple fact is that many very intelligent people have a "religious" (I have to use that word, you know for a fact I don't mean organised religion, I simply mean belief in a god) belief system, and a number of them are successful scientists, clearly they don't have a problem with the idea that belief in a god has no contradiction with science, not entirely sure what makes you a better judge than them. The argument that belief and science are compatible has already been provided, I already told you, they don't deal in the same thing. You are just restating that you believe it, so it must be true. All of your statements are logical fallacies. Religion and belief are different things but both can be irrational. You would benefit from familiarizing yourself with rhetoric/logic/debate. One of the great things about formal debate is that you are often tasked with arguing for something you disbelieve, or against something you believe, it teaches you how to think critically and structure an argument. I'm not playing devil's advocate about religion/gods, I'm arguing what I believe to be true, but I believe it because I have argued both sides. I challenge my opinions constantly. I anticipate what you will say because I have said it myself. If your beliefs can't stand up to your own scrutiny, you shouldn't accept them. I do love the way you are implying that my beliefs have somehow not held up to my own scrutiny, you yourself have admitted you know nothing about my beliefs, except of course that you presume I believe. I would love you to explain how every statement I have made is a logical fallacy, I have simply said that science and belief deal with two separate things and so are not incompatible, and pointed out that many very intelligent scientists have belief. I don't think we are ever going to see eye to eye as you seem to want me to walk you through my belief so you can tear it apart, I can tell you imany intelligent people have tried, I doubt you would have better success. At the end of that day, believers such as me and many others who are intelligent and well educated are not having trouble reconciling our belief with the findings of science, I see that you dont accept that so there is nothing more to say. I wish you well.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 5, 2022 21:40:29 GMT
I personally don't see any conflict between science and spirituality. One is concerned with the physical, the other with the metaphysical. I don't find it implausible that there are things beyond what our mortal senses can detect, and things that science doesn't have the tools to investigate. I tend to approach my spirituality more like a science than a faith, because I do test myself and try different techniques, and then I look at the results. I really don't have any faith, because everything I believe in is based on personal experience, and confirmed repeatedly. I have no qualms with science, either. I just don't think it necessarily has all the answers. This is what I am trying to point out, perhaps you have worded it better than I have.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 6, 2022 1:00:54 GMT
You are just restating that you believe it, so it must be true. All of your statements are logical fallacies. Religion and belief are different things but both can be irrational. You would benefit from familiarizing yourself with rhetoric/logic/debate. One of the great things about formal debate is that you are often tasked with arguing for something you disbelieve, or against something you believe, it teaches you how to think critically and structure an argument. I'm not playing devil's advocate about religion/gods, I'm arguing what I believe to be true, but I believe it because I have argued both sides. I challenge my opinions constantly. I anticipate what you will say because I have said it myself. If your beliefs can't stand up to your own scrutiny, you shouldn't accept them. I do love the way you are implying that my beliefs have somehow not held up to my own scrutiny, you yourself have admitted you know nothing about my beliefs, except of course that you presume I believe. I would love you to explain how every statement I have made is a logical fallacy, I have simply said that science and belief deal with two separate things and so are not incompatible, and pointed out that many very intelligent scientists have belief. I don't think we are ever going to see eye to eye as you seem to want me to walk you through my belief so you can tear it apart, I can tell you imany intelligent people have tried, I doubt you would have better success. At the end of that day, believers such as me and many others who are intelligent and well educated are not having trouble reconciling our belief with the findings of science, I see that you dont accept that so there is nothing more to say. I wish you well. A few times I used the impersonal you in my replies and it was interpreted as referring to you, gadreel. I will avoid doing that in the future but if I slip up and say "you" please don't assume I mean you. I will use your forum name instead. When it seemed like I was talking about gadreel's religion or beliefs, it wasn't meant to be you personally. I'm not interested in debunking gadreel's personal beliefs because there is no benefit to me. You don't know what I want, don't mistake me for the enraged tribalists who want to share their misery by pissing off others. My last sentence was suggesting it's beneficial for everyone to scrutinize their own beliefs, to be their own devil's advocate. I made a statement that if a god interacts with the universe in any way, it is fair game for science because science is the study of how the universe works. If a god doesn't interact with the universe in any way, then it's irrational to believe the being exists because there would be no way for gadreel or anyone else to know it exists. A scientist commits to understanding the universe in a rational way, accepting the irrational as rational is a corrupting influence. Cheers.
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Post by mystery on Mar 6, 2022 2:22:47 GMT
I do love the way you are implying that my beliefs have somehow not held up to my own scrutiny, you yourself have admitted you know nothing about my beliefs, except of course that you presume I believe. I would love you to explain how every statement I have made is a logical fallacy, I have simply said that science and belief deal with two separate things and so are not incompatible, and pointed out that many very intelligent scientists have belief. I don't think we are ever going to see eye to eye as you seem to want me to walk you through my belief so you can tear it apart, I can tell you imany intelligent people have tried, I doubt you would have better success. At the end of that day, believers such as me and many others who are intelligent and well educated are not having trouble reconciling our belief with the findings of science, I see that you dont accept that so there is nothing more to say. I wish you well. I made a statement that if a god interacts with the universe in any way, it is fair game for science because science is the study of how the universe works. If a god doesn't interact with the universe in any way, then it's irrational to believe the being exists because there would be no way for gadreel or anyone else to know it exists. A scientist commits to understanding the universe in a rational way, accepting the irrational as rational is a corrupting influence. Cheers. Just curious, but how do you explain things like premonitions? That's something I've experienced ever since childhood, and it continued throughout my Evangelical youth, my atheistic college years, and my spiritual meanderings ever since. It's actually the main reason why I'm not an atheist right now, because I have no rational explanation for them, except just to dismiss them all as coincidence, which seems pretty unlikely given the sheer number of premonitions I've had. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, from a rational atheist viewpoint. |
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Post by Sarge on Mar 6, 2022 4:08:05 GMT
I made a statement that if a god interacts with the universe in any way, it is fair game for science because science is the study of how the universe works. If a god doesn't interact with the universe in any way, then it's irrational to believe the being exists because there would be no way for gadreel or anyone else to know it exists. A scientist commits to understanding the universe in a rational way, accepting the irrational as rational is a corrupting influence. Cheers. Just curious, but how do you explain things like premonitions? That's something I've experienced ever since childhood, and it continued throughout my Evangelical youth, my atheistic college years, and my spiritual meanderings ever since. It's actually the main reason why I'm not an atheist right now, because I have no rational explanation for them, except just to dismiss them all as coincidence, which seems pretty unlikely given the sheer number of premonitions I've had. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, from a rational atheist viewpoint. Do you write them down and keep track of those that come to fruition vs those that don't? Some folks get a bad feeling, predicting something bad will happen -- well something bad always happens so it comes true. My grandma would say her nose itching means company is coming. Grandma had 9 children and a bajillion grandchildren, someone came to her house every day. It was like predicting the weather will change. But if she kept track of all the times her nose didn't itch and someone visited, then it might look like her nose wasn't reliable after all. So the rational in me would say that if your premonitions can do verifiable work, they are real. Millions of people have made similar claims and been tested but to my knowledge, none of them were reliable. But even if they were, it doesn't automatically mean something supernatural is happening. The universe is very different than we "see" it. Somewhat related is the problem of sensory perception and memory, that neither are very reliable. We don't see the world as it really is, but the way our brains interpret it. There is plenty of science to prove it. Same with memory -- eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Sometimes we trick ourselves into remembering things before they happened, our brain gets the memories out of order and we remember seeing it happen before it happened. It happened to me all the time as a kid, deja-vu, but I never remembered the dream until after it happened in real time. I once dreamed my parents were still alive, that it was modern day and they were at home with my family. They had been dead 30 years but I went halfway through the day thinking they were alive. Suddenly it dawned on me they were dead and the grief of losing 2 parents hit me full tilt, as fresh as if it just happened, and I started bawling at work. Our brains don't have to perfectly interpret the world, as long as we aren't walking off cliffs or trying to pet wild tigers, slop in the gears is fine. The best we can do is test ourselves, test each other, and test what we think is real, that's what science does.
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Post by mystery on Mar 6, 2022 12:57:04 GMT
Just curious, but how do you explain things like premonitions? That's something I've experienced ever since childhood, and it continued throughout my Evangelical youth, my atheistic college years, and my spiritual meanderings ever since. It's actually the main reason why I'm not an atheist right now, because I have no rational explanation for them, except just to dismiss them all as coincidence, which seems pretty unlikely given the sheer number of premonitions I've had. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, from a rational atheist viewpoint. Do you write them down and keep track of those that come to fruition vs those that don't? Some folks get a bad feeling, predicting something bad will happen -- well something bad always happens so it comes true. My grandma would say her nose itching means company is coming. Grandma had 9 children and a bajillion grandchildren, someone came to her house every day. It was like predicting the weather will change. But if she kept track of all the times her nose didn't itch and someone visited, then it might look like her nose wasn't reliable after all. So the rational in me would say that if your premonitions can do verifiable work, they are real. Millions of people have made similar claims and been tested but to my knowledge, none of them were reliable. But even if they were, it doesn't automatically mean something supernatural is happening. The universe is very different than we "see" it. Somewhat related is the problem of sensory perception and memory, that neither are very reliable. We don't see the world as it really is, but the way our brains interpret it. There is plenty of science to prove it. Same with memory -- eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Sometimes we trick ourselves into remembering things before they happened, our brain gets the memories out of order and we remember seeing it happen before it happened. It happened to me all the time as a kid, deja-vu, but I never remembered the dream until after it happened in real time. I once dreamed my parents were still alive, that it was modern day and they were at home with my family. They had been dead 30 years but I went halfway through the day thinking they were alive. Suddenly it dawned on me they were dead and the grief of losing 2 parents hit me full tilt, as fresh as if it just happened, and I started bawling at work. Our brains don't have to perfectly interpret the world, as long as we aren't walking off cliffs or trying to pet wild tigers, slop in the gears is fine. The best we can do is test ourselves, test each other, and test what we think is real, that's what science does. For some reason, I don't get precognitive dreams. In fact, I rarely even remember my dreams at all. The premonitions happen when I'm wide awake, and they're certainly not a daily occurrence, so when they do happen it's quite notable. And it's definitely more than an itchy nose. Generally speaking, they tend to be more like intrusive thoughts or feelings that have nothing to do with what I'm currently focused on, and it keeps nagging until I start paying attention. It comes in different ways, like visions or a feeling of foreboding, or sudden sense of knowing, but the main hallmark that it's a genuine premonition is that by all measures, it seems completely irrational and not based on any observable evidence. If it *does* seem rational, then it's most likely just my brain making a judgment call based on the evidence available, and I'm wrong on that far, far more than my premonitions are wrong. I usually don't write them down, because my range tends to be very short. Most often, it comes to pass within a few minutes to a few days, although occasionally it can be a week or two, but I rarely get anything further out than that. I understand what you mean about faulty memory, but there have been so many times that I dramatically altered my behavior in response to a premonition, so I can't really chalk that up to flawed recall. I do agree that theoretically, premonitions don't have to be supernatural in origin, however it's very common for my vision-type premonitions to be presented to me by a dead guy. He shows me symbols to get his message across, and sometimes they're highly symbolic and abstract, while other times, they're mercifully concrete and don't require much interpretation. Just to give you one small example, one day I had a vision of him showing me an animal skull, and he looked somber, and I knew he was telling me that my pet was going to die. Unfortunately, he was right, and just a few days later, she was gone. I've learned the hard way that I should always take him seriously, because he has never been wrong. For some reason, it's just easier for me to blow off this type of premonition and ignore it. I guess it lacks the emotional punch that the others have, and I can be incredibly dense sometimes. Thank you for your thoughts. It's always interesting to hear how other people view things like this. I've talked about this on this forum before and provided more examples, but I just decided not to post a bunch of stories here. I'm sorry about your parents. That really sucks. Time may heal all wounds, but some of those scars never fade. Pain can be a good teacher, though. People who have been through hell have a lot more depth and character than those who have never been challenged. Although, that wisdom sure comes at a steep price. |
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