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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 15, 2022 1:09:07 GMT
I know you are being deliberately obtuse, but one last go: Are you certain that this is the only error in the book? I never said it was an error. Said it was a mistranslation from the original languages. A mistranslation is an error, as any editor or proofreader knows. And there have been some very bad errors, back in the day, when followers were told to 'go and sin on more' rather than 'go and sin no more'. Just a switch in two letters can change the entire meaning. It cannot be taken as the literal word of God because it was put to paper by humans, lots of different ones, some we know the names and others more obscure. Then it was translated out of its original language (Hebrew) into another language (Aramaic), and then yet again into Latin. Then Constantine, a Roman emperor, called the Council of Nicaea, a group of men who VOTED on what to keep in and what to leave out. At this point the Catholic Church came into being, and the Orthodox Church split off. In comparison, the Qur'an was written by one man, Mohammad, as the spirit of God dictated it to him. One author, original language, translations aren't official. Followers still interpret verses differently, but the exact... same... words are in every Qur'an in Arabic. But, as you are probably aware, I am an agnostic atheist, after reading the Bible as a child and youth, and noticing the contradictions. I would ask questions about these, and mostly I was simply told to not question. And once I started down the path to facts, other events in history, other major world religions, I came to the same conclusion that Christopher Hitchens came to: since it was impossible for them to all be right, it was more likely that they were all wrong. I follow the science: is it observable, is it testable, is it repeatable... the apple always falls to the ground, hence gravity. I could go on but won't. It is not possible to KNOW if there is a god, and if there is, the nature of that god. Believe, don't believe... there is no PROOF. OpiateOfTheMasses
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Post by clusium on Jul 15, 2022 3:15:51 GMT
Proofreading is one thing. Translating from language to another entirely another thing. Often times there are words and/or phrases that can get lost in translation because there are no equivalents from one language to another. Catholicism & Orthodoxy split sometime in the 10'Th Century AD. This was some 600 years after the Council of Nicaea. Then the Protestant Reformation took place in the 15'Th Century, & Martin Luther further edited the Holy Bible. Mohammad copied from all of the Books in the Holy Bible (all of which were written by several different people - albeit under the Influence Of the Holy Spirit - that were written over a period of over more than 1,000 + years) & rewrote the stories to fit his own agenda. In the Quran, he made Miriam, the sister of Moses & Aaron, & the Blessed Virgin Mary, one & the same person, even though they were 2 entirely different people, separated by about a 1,000 years. Miriam & Mary in the Quran
Yes, that was also how Goz & a few others identified too. Christopher Hitchens was bitter towards all things religious, because his mother committed suicide with her lover, an ex-priest. Christopher Hitchens' Mother's Suicide
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind. ~ Albert Einstein. God Exists outside of time & space.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jul 15, 2022 5:49:48 GMT
I know you are being deliberately obtuse, but one last go: Are you certain that this is the only error in the book? I never said it was an error. Said it was a mistranslation from the original languages. A mistranslation is an error. |
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Hnefahogg
Sophomore
@hnefahogg
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Post by Hnefahogg on Jul 15, 2022 8:11:09 GMT
What's your favorite Bible quote? “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains. - John 9:41 (ESV)
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Post by Rodney Farber on Jul 15, 2022 12:45:39 GMT
After a bit of research: King James version: "little children" Catholic: "little boys" New International: "boys" New World Translation "young boys" American Standard Version: "young lads"
How did all these people get it wrong while you didn't? And let me paraphrase something RachelCarson1953 said: WTF difference does it make whether they were 8 or 18? Yahweh gave them the death penalty for mocking a bald man.
On the other hand, Acts 5:01-10 God kills Ananias and his wife Sapphira because they embezzled some of the funds from a sale of property. God wanted to put the fear of God into those who remained.
All well and good. How do you know that your source of translation is the correct one given that most others disagree with you. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you surely are outnumbered. On the other hand, WTF difference does it make. Jehovah still killed a bunch of people for something trivial.
OTOH, that's peanuts when one considers that Yahweh has killed over six million people, including little babies, with his corona virus. If He were truly a nice guy, he would have told us how to cure smallpox, Covid, and the black death instead of telling us what the curtains in his temple should look like (Exodus 26).
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 15, 2022 15:51:36 GMT
Proofreading is one thing. Translating from language to another entirely another thing. Often times there are words and/or phrases that can get lost in translation because there are no equivalents from one language to another. Catholicism & Orthodoxy split sometime in the 10'Th Century AD. This was some 600 years after the Council of Nicaea. Then the Protestant Reformation took place in the 15'Th Century, & Martin Luther further edited the Holy Bible. Mohammad copied from all of the Books in the Holy Bible (all of which were written by several different people - albeit under the Influence Of the Holy Spirit - that were written over a period of over more than 1,000 + years) & rewrote the stories to fit his own agenda. In the Quran, he made Miriam, the sister of Moses & Aaron, & the Blessed Virgin Mary, one & the same person, even though they were 2 entirely different people, separated by about a 1,000 years. Miriam & Mary in the Quran
Yes, that was also how Goz & a few others identified too. Christopher Hitchens was bitter towards all things religious, because his mother committed suicide with her lover, an ex-priest. Christopher Hitchens' Mother's Suicide
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind. ~ Albert Einstein. God Exists outside of time & space.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 15, 2022 16:21:22 GMT
All well and good. How do you know that your source of translation is the correct one given that most others disagree with you. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you surely are outnumbered. On the other hand, WTF difference does it make. Jehovah still killed a bunch of people for something trivial.
OTOH, that's peanuts when one considers that Yahweh has killed over six million people, including little babies, with his corona virus. If He were truly a nice guy, he would have told us how to cure smallpox, Covid, and the black death instead of telling us what the curtains in his temple should look like (Exodus 26).
On that note, a variation of an old hymn... OpiateOfTheMasses
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Post by clusium on Jul 15, 2022 17:36:36 GMT
Proofreading is one thing. Translating from language to another entirely another thing. Often times there are words and/or phrases that can get lost in translation because there are no equivalents from one language to another. Catholicism & Orthodoxy split sometime in the 10'Th Century AD. This was some 600 years after the Council of Nicaea. Then the Protestant Reformation took place in the 15'Th Century, & Martin Luther further edited the Holy Bible. Mohammad copied from all of the Books in the Holy Bible (all of which were written by several different people - albeit under the Influence Of the Holy Spirit - that were written over a period of over more than 1,000 + years) & rewrote the stories to fit his own agenda. In the Quran, he made Miriam, the sister of Moses & Aaron, & the Blessed Virgin Mary, one & the same person, even though they were 2 entirely different people, separated by about a 1,000 years. Miriam & Mary in the Quran
Yes, that was also how Goz & a few others identified too. Christopher Hitchens was bitter towards all things religious, because his mother committed suicide with her lover, an ex-priest. Christopher Hitchens' Mother's Suicide
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind. ~ Albert Einstein. God Exists outside of time & space. Copy & paste from an answer I saw on Quora.com, 2 years ago: "Atheism vs. some sort of supernatural power. For me, this is the trickiest step to argue, because it involves a lot of very abstract philosophical arguments which don’t have many real-world parallels. However I think that it’s possible to construct a strong rational case for the supernatural for a couple reasons. The existence of consciousness. Thanks to science, we know that the human brain works by taking in electrical signals, running them through circuits, and outputting more electrical signals. This means that the brain is nothing more than a machine, albeit a very complex one. However no machine can ever be conscious of its decisions, or experience what we call the “theater of the mind”. This means that humans must have an immaterial part of our existence, which we call the soul. The design of the universe. When we play a computer game, we observe how the world in the game operates according to consistent rules, according to the dictates of a programming language. In the same way, our universe has consistent rules, which are in the language of Mathematics. Humans never “invented” math, math is written in the very fabric of the universe. And just like a programming language could never exist without an intelligent programmer, how could the laws of the universe come about without an intelligent entity? The fine-tuning argument. Building on to my last point, not only are the laws of the universe beautifully written in math, but they are very specifically-tuned to allow for life. Stanford University physicist and cosmologist, Leonard Susskind, says, “ If the value of this ratio [electrons to protons] deviated more than 1 in 10^37, the universe, as we know it, would not exist today. If the ratio between the electromagnetic force and gravity was altered more than 1 in 10^40, the universe would have suffered a similar fate. Furthermore he states that “If the expansion rate of the universe deviated by more than 1 in 10^37, or the mass density of universe varied more than 1 in 10^59, there wouldn’t be a single habitable galaxy or planet in the universe.[1] For a great article about this, see Science Increasingly Making The Case For God. Also, the chance of life on Earth developing by accident is also infinitesimally small. Even the most “simple” multicellular organisms are immensely complex, with over 100,000 DNA base pairs and very complex interlocking mechanisms. Even the random creation of a few working proteins is statistically impossible. To watch scientist Stephen Meyer do some mathematical calculations, look at this video:" (Video no longer exists.) Poster concludes by saying "In my opinion, believing that all of these things happened by chance takes a lot more faith than believing in God." Quora poster that I sourced: Gabriel Dionisi.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 15, 2022 18:41:56 GMT
Copy & paste from an answer I saw on Quora.com, 2 years ago: "Atheism vs. some sort of supernatural power. For me, this is the trickiest step to argue, because it involves a lot of very abstract philosophical arguments which don’t have many real-world parallels. However I think that it’s possible to construct a strong rational case for the supernatural for a couple reasons. The existence of consciousness. Thanks to science, we know that the human brain works by taking in electrical signals, running them through circuits, and outputting more electrical signals. This means that the brain is nothing more than a machine, albeit a very complex one. However no machine can ever be conscious of its decisions, or experience what we call the “theater of the mind”. This means that humans must have an immaterial part of our existence, which we call the soul. The design of the universe. When we play a computer game, we observe how the world in the game operates according to consistent rules, according to the dictates of a programming language. In the same way, our universe has consistent rules, which are in the language of Mathematics. Humans never “invented” math, math is written in the very fabric of the universe. And just like a programming language could never exist without an intelligent programmer, how could the laws of the universe come about without an intelligent entity? The fine-tuning argument. Building on to my last point, not only are the laws of the universe beautifully written in math, but they are very specifically-tuned to allow for life. Stanford University physicist and cosmologist, Leonard Susskind, says, “ If the value of this ratio [electrons to protons] deviated more than 1 in 10^37, the universe, as we know it, would not exist today. If the ratio between the electromagnetic force and gravity was altered more than 1 in 10^40, the universe would have suffered a similar fate. Furthermore he states that “If the expansion rate of the universe deviated by more than 1 in 10^37, or the mass density of universe varied more than 1 in 10^59, there wouldn’t be a single habitable galaxy or planet in the universe.[1] For a great article about this, see Science Increasingly Making The Case For God. Also, the chance of life on Earth developing by accident is also infinitesimally small. Even the most “simple” multicellular organisms are immensely complex, with over 100,000 DNA base pairs and very complex interlocking mechanisms. Even the random creation of a few working proteins is statistically impossible. To watch scientist Stephen Meyer do some mathematical calculations, look at this video:" (Video no longer exists.) Poster concludes by saying "In my opinion, believing that all of these things happened by chance takes a lot more faith than believing in God."Quora poster that I sourced: Gabriel Dionisi. Someone's opinion. NOT PROOF.OpiateOfTheMasses
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 15, 2022 19:12:45 GMT
to quote an old bumper sticker:
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Post by clusium on Jul 15, 2022 19:52:50 GMT
Copy & paste from an answer I saw on Quora.com, 2 years ago: "Atheism vs. some sort of supernatural power. For me, this is the trickiest step to argue, because it involves a lot of very abstract philosophical arguments which don’t have many real-world parallels. However I think that it’s possible to construct a strong rational case for the supernatural for a couple reasons. The existence of consciousness. Thanks to science, we know that the human brain works by taking in electrical signals, running them through circuits, and outputting more electrical signals. This means that the brain is nothing more than a machine, albeit a very complex one. However no machine can ever be conscious of its decisions, or experience what we call the “theater of the mind”. This means that humans must have an immaterial part of our existence, which we call the soul. The design of the universe. When we play a computer game, we observe how the world in the game operates according to consistent rules, according to the dictates of a programming language. In the same way, our universe has consistent rules, which are in the language of Mathematics. Humans never “invented” math, math is written in the very fabric of the universe. And just like a programming language could never exist without an intelligent programmer, how could the laws of the universe come about without an intelligent entity? The fine-tuning argument. Building on to my last point, not only are the laws of the universe beautifully written in math, but they are very specifically-tuned to allow for life. Stanford University physicist and cosmologist, Leonard Susskind, says, “ If the value of this ratio [electrons to protons] deviated more than 1 in 10^37, the universe, as we know it, would not exist today. If the ratio between the electromagnetic force and gravity was altered more than 1 in 10^40, the universe would have suffered a similar fate. Furthermore he states that “If the expansion rate of the universe deviated by more than 1 in 10^37, or the mass density of universe varied more than 1 in 10^59, there wouldn’t be a single habitable galaxy or planet in the universe.[1] For a great article about this, see Science Increasingly Making The Case For God. Also, the chance of life on Earth developing by accident is also infinitesimally small. Even the most “simple” multicellular organisms are immensely complex, with over 100,000 DNA base pairs and very complex interlocking mechanisms. Even the random creation of a few working proteins is statistically impossible. To watch scientist Stephen Meyer do some mathematical calculations, look at this video:" (Video no longer exists.) Poster concludes by saying "In my opinion, believing that all of these things happened by chance takes a lot more faith than believing in God."Quora poster that I sourced: Gabriel Dionisi. Someone's opinion. NOT PROOF.OpiateOfTheMasses Gabriel Dionisi wrote an excellent defence for something that was just his "opinion."
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 15, 2022 20:03:03 GMT
Gabriel Dionisi wrote an excellent defence defense for something that was just his "opinion." Good for him. NOT PROOF.Oh, and by the way, I am a retired professional proofreader.
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Post by clusium on Jul 15, 2022 20:23:37 GMT
Gabriel Dionisi wrote an excellent defence defense for something that was just his "opinion." Good for him. NOT PROOF.Oh, and by the way, I am a retired professional proofreader. Good for you.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 15, 2022 20:47:55 GMT
Good for him. NOT PROOF.Oh, and by the way, I am a retired professional proofreader. Good for you. You are entitled to your opinion. You are NOT entitled to tell me what mine should be. End of discussion.
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Post by Sarge on Jul 15, 2022 21:19:01 GMT
After a bit of research: King James version: "little children" Catholic: "little boys" New International: "boys" New World Translation "young boys" American Standard Version: "young lads"
How did all these people get it wrong while you didn't? And let me paraphrase something RachelCarson1953 said: WTF difference does it make whether they were 8 or 18? Yahweh gave them the death penalty for mocking a bald man.
On the other hand, Acts 5:01-10 God kills Ananias and his wife Sapphira because they embezzled some of the funds from a sale of property. God wanted to put the fear of God into those who remained.
Yesterday I quoted the wrong post so I am reposting and quoting the correct post. I did note that clusium had no answer and therefore should admit she was wrong. So that claims they were young men lads and it's okay they were ripped apart by bears because SATAN! I was unable to verify this claim. Every English translation of Kings (about a dozen) I checked said they were boys, kids, or youths. I checked 2 Greek translations, one said youths, the other was small children. (also that article doesn't claim there is a mistranslation or provide any evidence of a mistranslation, unless I missed it) This is classic Yahweh, he was an asshole that killed or tortured people for petty reasons. Jews killed people for building fires on the Sabbath, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't kill children for mocking a bald man.
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Post by clusium on Jul 15, 2022 22:53:27 GMT
You are entitled to your opinion. You are NOT entitled to tell me what mine should be. End of discussion. I never told you what your opinion should be.
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Post by clusium on Jul 15, 2022 22:55:48 GMT
Yesterday I quoted the wrong post so I am reposting and quoting the correct post. I did note that clusium had no answer and therefore should admit she was wrong. So that claims they were young men lads and it's okay they were ripped apart by bears because SATAN! I was unable to verify this claim. Every English translation of Kings (about a dozen) I checked said they were boys, kids, or youths. I checked 2 Greek translations, one said youths, the other was small children. (also that article doesn't claim there is a mistranslation or provide any evidence of a mistranslation, unless I missed it) This is classic Yahweh, he was an asshole that killed or tortured people for petty reasons. Jews killed people for building fires on the Sabbath, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't kill children for mocking a bald man. I did respond to your post. No I am not admitting to any such thing. You yourself admit to YOUTHS. That in & of itself implies young men, as opposed to small children.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 16, 2022 0:20:40 GMT
You are entitled to your opinion. You are NOT entitled to tell me what mine should be. End of discussion. I never told you what your opinion should be. Yes, you do, every time you try to convince me that God exists and the Bible is his infallible word. It is called proselytizing, and I am sick of it. You think freedom of speech and religion allows you to constantly shove your worldview down everyone else's throat. I am telling you why I don't believe what you do. Since I, too, have freedom of speech and religion, I am going to start actively trying to get you to accept atheism. Freedom of speech and religion is a two-way street. You should be an atheist. Praying to God doesn't heal the sick, advances in medical science does. I am living proof. My female relatives on my father's side were, almost 90%, diagnosed with breast cancer. My father's mother died of it, before I was ever born. My father's sister died of it, when I was 12 years old. Countless aunts, second and third cousins died of it. When I was 35, I was diagnosed with it. Stage 2 Adenocarcinoma with involved lymph nodes. I was sure I would die of it. But my husband wouldn't let me give up. He dragged me, kicking and screaming, through surgeries, chemotherapy and anti-hormone therapy for over a year. I was declared in remission, and I have stayed on the anti-hormone meds for over 30 years. I am still in remission to this day. Advances in medical science have extended my life far longer than I ever could have hoped for. For 32 years, I have followed the science. You should give up praying to God. It didn't work for any of my female relatives. Science worked for me. Proof.
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Post by Sarge on Jul 16, 2022 1:11:18 GMT
Yesterday I quoted the wrong post so I am reposting and quoting the correct post. I did note that clusium had no answer and therefore should admit she was wrong. So that claims they were young men lads and it's okay they were ripped apart by bears because SATAN! I was unable to verify this claim. Every English translation of Kings (about a dozen) I checked said they were boys, kids, or youths. I checked 2 Greek translations, one said youths, the other was small children. (also that article doesn't claim there is a mistranslation or provide any evidence of a mistranslation, unless I missed it) This is classic Yahweh, he was an asshole that killed or tortured people for petty reasons. Jews killed people for building fires on the Sabbath, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't kill children for mocking a bald man. I did respond to your post. No I am not admitting to any such thing. You yourself admit to YOUTHS. That in & of itself implies young men, as opposed to small children. I don't see a reply. You haven't produced any translations to the contrary, but the consensus is you're wrong.
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Post by clusium on Jul 16, 2022 3:03:05 GMT
I never told you what your opinion should be. Yes, you do, every time you try to convince me that God exists and the Bible is his infallible word. It is called proselytizing, and I am sick of it. You think freedom of speech and religion allows you to constantly shove your worldview down everyone else's throat. I am telling you why I don't believe what you do. Since I, too, have freedom of speech and religion, I am going to start actively trying to get you to accept atheism. Freedom of speech and religion is a two-way street. You should be an atheist. Praying to God doesn't heal the sick, advances in medical science does. I am living proof. My female relatives on my father's side were, almost 90%, diagnosed with breast cancer. My father's mother died of it, before I was ever born. My father's sister died of it, when I was 12 years old. Countless aunts, second and third cousins died of it. When I was 35, I was diagnosed with it. Stage 2 Adenocarcinoma with involved lymph nodes. I was sure I would die of it. But my husband wouldn't let me give up. He dragged me, kicking and screaming, through surgeries, chemotherapy and anti-hormone therapy for over a year. I was declared in remission, and I have stayed on the anti-hormone meds for over 30 years. I am still in remission to this day. Advances in medical science have extended my life far longer than I ever could have hoped for. For 32 years, I have followed the science. You should give up praying to God. It didn't work for any of my female relatives. Science worked for me. Proof. This is a public religion message forum. I believe that God Exists, & express my views here. You posted to me first. When people post a topic, I respond to it. Truth is, I don't even care if you are an atheist. But, I am not, & moreover, I actually find the subject of religions in general to be quite interesting, which is why I even come to religion message forums. Why do you come? No, that is what bigots such as the anti-theists on this message forum think. They have no respect for other people's deeply-held religious beliefs. Fat chance. Praying to God Gives the knowledge of medical science to those who learn it. And I am really happy to hear that you survived it. I'm very pleased to hear it. Right up until the pandemic broke out 2 years ago, I volunteered for many years with a not-for-profit organization for women undergoing chemotherapy called Look Good, Feel Better. Did you take part in it? It is in pretty much most hospitals which treat cancer & other medical centres which treat cancer too. Some of these places actually are spiritually-based. Such as Wellspring. Nobody is stopping you from doing so. " Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."~Albert Einstein. Sorry Honey. Ain't gonna happen.
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