|
|
Post by gadreel on Sept 20, 2022 20:25:53 GMT
Again Catholicism, Catholics are painfully Patricarchical There is nothing painful about addressing the Holy Spirit in the Masculine. Personally, as a woman myself, I prefer that we do refer the Holy Spirit in the Masculine, as opposed to the Feminine. Why? You may ask...? 1)Because the Trinity Is One Eternal God. Not 3 separate deities. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Are One and the Same Almighty God. That means we address the Trinity as ' He,' not 'They.' Were it to be that the Holy Spirit to be viewed as a Feminine Entity, we would be addressing the Triune God as 'He,' at the expense of Of this Female Being that Is within the Trinity. (On a side note, if I addressed the Holy Spirit in the Feminine Tense, as opposed to the Masculine, I would be sorely tempted to address the Holy Spirit as ' Goddess,' rather than as 'God,' & I am pretty certain that if I were to do that, most other Christians -whether or not Catholic - would considered to be heretical, if not outright blasphemous. One final note: If the Holy Spirit Is to be considered a Feminine Entity, & the Mother in the Triune God, then how come the Trinity Is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, particularly since the Both the Father and the Pre-Incarnate Son, are Spirit also? Would the Trinity not be addressed as the "Father, the Mother, and the Son, instead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?" wow. God is both sexes.
|
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Sept 20, 2022 22:16:26 GMT
There is nothing painful about addressing the Holy Spirit in the Masculine. Personally, as a woman myself, I prefer that we do refer the Holy Spirit in the Masculine, as opposed to the Feminine. Why? You may ask...? 1)Because the Trinity Is One Eternal God. Not 3 separate deities. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Are One and the Same Almighty God. That means we address the Trinity as ' He,' not 'They.' Were it to be that the Holy Spirit to be viewed as a Feminine Entity, we would be addressing the Triune God as 'He,' at the expense of Of this Female Being that Is within the Trinity. (On a side note, if I addressed the Holy Spirit in the Feminine Tense, as opposed to the Masculine, I would be sorely tempted to address the Holy Spirit as ' Goddess,' rather than as 'God,' & I am pretty certain that if I were to do that, most other Christians -whether or not Catholic - would considered to be heretical, if not outright blasphemous. One final note: If the Holy Spirit Is to be considered a Feminine Entity, & the Mother in the Triune God, then how come the Trinity Is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, particularly since the Both the Father and the Pre-Incarnate Son, are Spirit also? Would the Trinity not be addressed as the "Father, the Mother, and the Son, instead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?" wow. God is both sexes. You said it. Not me.
|
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on Sept 21, 2022 9:01:07 GMT
I think it's because earliest man had some sense of the supernatural due to dreams and hallucinations and the penchant to see 'agency' in the world around them.
I am convinced animals dream. And I can but imagine as humans were separating from other similar species and developing a complex ability to communicate, they tried to figure out, among other things, what dreams were/meant. Consider what happens in dreams. We 'live' experiences... some familiar and some unfamiliar, we encounter people...some familiar, some unfamiliar. We encounter dead people in our dreams...long dead relatives/friends/sometime famous people, etc. So it may have appeared to early man that in sleep you experience a different world where dead people still exist. Couple that with hallucinations due to hallucinogenic plants (smoked or ingested) where everyday life (and I'm guessing here) seems altered. Maybe someone who's actually been high on hard drugs can describe it, but don't people 'see' things and imagine weird stuff? Anyways, the two probably caused early man to conjure and tried to describe another existence...a 'super' natural existence where dead people keep on living. And since, when people died, they were like being asleep, they thought being dead meant you were in that 'other' world. So as peoples separated across the planet they each took with them this underlying belief in some sort of supernatural existence/world. That is why almost all civilizations have some sort of supernatural belief...they all brought it with them. Many ancient and primitive cultures do a lot of ancestor worship. Where would they get the idea their 'ancestors' were still alive in this other world unless they thought they visited this world and encountered them in their sleep. The Bible suggests people believed what happened in dreams had real meaning...people believe Mary encountered the spirit of God in a dream and are convinced she got pregnant from that encounter. They also believe the a similar 'being' appeared to Joseph and convinced him is pregnant betrothed wife hadn't really slept with a Roman guard. The Bible is rife with examples of where real things happened to people in dreams. Even today, people try to make sense of dreams. Nobody believes that the Annunciation occurred to Our Lady, during a dream. Mary was fully awake when St. Gabriel appeared to her & told her that she Would Conceive the Son Of God via the Holy Spirit. I always thought it was. But I grew up a protestant...maybe I was misled. So we can strike that...but there are plenty of examples where folks supposedly learned things and were told things in dreams.
|
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Sept 21, 2022 14:14:52 GMT
Nobody believes that the Annunciation occurred to Our Lady, during a dream. Mary was fully awake when St. Gabriel appeared to her & told her that she Would Conceive the Son Of God via the Holy Spirit. I always thought it was. But I grew up a protestant...maybe I was misled. So we can strike that...but there are plenty of examples where folks supposedly learned things and were told things in dreams. Yes, it was St. Joseph who heard from the angel in a dream.
|
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Sept 22, 2022 14:05:01 GMT
Yes, we are creating the God as it is in religion. I am theorizing on why almost ever culture has had a belief in a God throughout history. I think it's because earliest man had some sense of the supernatural due to dreams and hallucinations and the penchant to see 'agency' in the world around them.
I am convinced animals dream. And I can but imagine as humans were separating from other similar species and developing a complex ability to communicate, they tried to figure out, among other things, what dreams were/meant. Consider what happens in dreams. We 'live' experiences... some familiar and some unfamiliar, we encounter people...some familiar, some unfamiliar. We encounter dead people in our dreams...long dead relatives/friends/sometime famous people, etc. So it may have appeared to early man that in sleep you experience a different world where dead people still exist. Couple that with hallucinations due to hallucinogenic plants (smoked or ingested) where everyday life (and I'm guessing here) seems altered. Maybe someone who's actually been high on hard drugs can describe it, but don't people 'see' things and imagine weird stuff? Anyways, the two probably caused early man to conjure and tried to describe another existence...a 'super' natural existence where dead people keep on living. And since, when people died, they were like being asleep, they thought being dead meant you were in that 'other' world. So as peoples separated across the planet they each took with them this underlying belief in some sort of supernatural existence/world. That is why almost all civilizations have some sort of supernatural belief...they all brought it with them. Many ancient and primitive cultures do a lot of ancestor worship. Where would they get the idea their 'ancestors' were still alive in this other world unless they thought they visited this world and encountered them in their sleep. The Bible suggests people believed what happened in dreams had real meaning...people believe Mary encountered the spirit of God in a dream and are convinced she got pregnant from that encounter. They also believe the a similar 'being' appeared to Joseph and convinced him is pregnant betrothed wife hadn't really slept with a Roman guard. The Bible is rife with examples of where real things happened to people in dreams. Even today, people try to make sense of dreams. I agree with all of what you said there and have read that part of us seeing agency in everything may have evolved as a defense mechanism. That when we hear a noise, if we assume agency and run then why are more likely to survive than the person who goes and investigates what the noise is. Like a noise in a dark alley or something for example. I have definitely thought about the dream stuff too and that before we understood more about the brain, that people probably had no idea what that experience was 4,000 years ago.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sarge on Sept 22, 2022 19:31:05 GMT
I've had dreams so real they took hours to dissipate after waking, as if the dreams had temporarily overwritten my memory.
Humans are animals so everything we do is rooted in the animal kingdom, dreaming, emotions, and probably the base emotions in animals of awe, surprise, fear of unknown; evolved into belief in the supernatural as our intelligence grew.
|
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on Sept 23, 2022 10:49:39 GMT
Ok that is not my experience. I don't know about other languages, but in Portuguese we use the term "Espírito Santo" to refer to the Holy Spirit. "Santo" is masculine. But interestingly don't languages like Portuguese and Spanish consider almost every thing to be a gender...houses, cars, wind...isn't everything either masculine or feminine? Is that different than considering 'Santo' to be masculine?
|
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on Sept 23, 2022 10:58:20 GMT
I've had dreams so real they took hours to dissipate after waking, as if the dreams had temporarily overwritten my memory. Humans are animals so everything we do is rooted in the animal kingdom, dreaming, emotions, and probably the base emotions in animals of awe, surprise, fear of unknown; evolved into belief in the supernatural as our intelligence grew. Same here with dreams. Some dreams I had when I was a kid decades ago are still vivid in my mind as if they really happened. I know them to be dreams, but I think that comes from being informed that dreams aren't real. EG I never really got shot in the head. I never really road a stage coach off a cliff and it took flight and glided. I really didn't see 4 jets flying in formation angle over and crash straight into the ground. But all those occurrences seem as real as any of my early memories.
|
|
|
|
Post by Winter_King on Sept 23, 2022 11:08:05 GMT
I don't know about other languages, but in Portuguese we use the term "Espírito Santo" to refer to the Holy Spirit. "Santo" is masculine. But interestingly don't languages like Portuguese and Spanish consider almost every thing to be a gender...houses, cars, wind...isn't everything either masculine or feminine? Is that different than considering 'Santo' to be masculine? Yes. But we also have "Sant a" which is feminine and used for female "saints".
|
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Sept 23, 2022 14:43:07 GMT
I've had dreams so real they took hours to dissipate after waking, as if the dreams had temporarily overwritten my memory. Humans are animals so everything we do is rooted in the animal kingdom, dreaming, emotions, and probably the base emotions in animals of awe, surprise, fear of unknown; evolved into belief in the supernatural as our intelligence grew. Same here with dreams. Some dreams I had when I was a kid decades ago are still vivid in my mind as if they really happened. I know them to be dreams, but I think that comes from being informed that dreams aren't real. EG I never really got shot in the head. I never really road a stage coach off a cliff and it took flight and glided. I really didn't see 4 jets flying in formation angle over and crash straight into the ground. But all those occurrences seem as real as any of my early memories.
“Once upon a time, I dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was myself. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.” ― Zhuangzi, The Butterfly as Companion: Meditations on the First Three Chapters of the Chuang-Tzu
|
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 23, 2022 18:39:43 GMT
Nobody believes that the Annunciation occurred to Our Lady, during a dream. Mary was fully awake when St. Gabriel appeared to her & told her that she Would Conceive the Son Of God via the Holy Spirit. I always thought it was. But I grew up a protestant...maybe I was misled. So we can strike that...but there are plenty of examples where folks supposedly learned things and were told things in dreams. And we know Mary was fully awake because it was written in a 2,000-year-old book that has been edited and translated multiple times. Proving the Bible with the Bible.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sarge on Sept 24, 2022 6:08:44 GMT
I've had dreams so real they took hours to dissipate after waking, as if the dreams had temporarily overwritten my memory. Humans are animals so everything we do is rooted in the animal kingdom, dreaming, emotions, and probably the base emotions in animals of awe, surprise, fear of unknown; evolved into belief in the supernatural as our intelligence grew. Same here with dreams. Some dreams I had when I was a kid decades ago are still vivid in my mind as if they really happened. I know them to be dreams, but I think that comes from being informed that dreams aren't real. EG I never really got shot in the head. I never really road a stage coach off a cliff and it took flight and glided. I really didn't see 4 jets flying in formation angle over and crash straight into the ground. But all those occurrences seem as real as any of my early memories.
My dreams tend to be more insidious. Like I dreamed that it was modern day and everything was the same except my parents were still alive and got to meet their grandkids. I spent half a day believing it was true then suddenly it hit me at work, after lunch, that they were long dead. For a few moments I was confused and then I was very sad. It was like losing them all over again. My bad dreams tend to be happy dreams that turn into nightmares when I awake. That is one example but there are others nearly as unpleasant.
|
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Sept 24, 2022 14:01:57 GMT
Same here with dreams. Some dreams I had when I was a kid decades ago are still vivid in my mind as if they really happened. I know them to be dreams, but I think that comes from being informed that dreams aren't real. EG I never really got shot in the head. I never really road a stage coach off a cliff and it took flight and glided. I really didn't see 4 jets flying in formation angle over and crash straight into the ground. But all those occurrences seem as real as any of my early memories.
My dreams tend to be more insidious. Like I dreamed that it was modern day and everything was the same except my parents were still alive and got to meet their grandkids. I spent half a day believing it was true then suddenly it hit me at work, after lunch, that they were long dead. For a few moments I was confused and then I was very sad. It was like losing them all over again. My bad dreams tend to be happy dreams that turn into nightmares when I awake. That is one example but there are others nearly as unpleasant. I'm very sorry. I can actually relate to you regarding your parents not meeting their grandkids, as my own father had died before my brother got married & had kids himself. My nephew & niece would have adored my father (their grandfather). My brother is a great husband & father because of our own father was a great husband & father.
|
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on Sept 24, 2022 16:12:29 GMT
Same here with dreams. Some dreams I had when I was a kid decades ago are still vivid in my mind as if they really happened. I know them to be dreams, but I think that comes from being informed that dreams aren't real. EG I never really got shot in the head. I never really road a stage coach off a cliff and it took flight and glided. I really didn't see 4 jets flying in formation angle over and crash straight into the ground. But all those occurrences seem as real as any of my early memories.
My dreams tend to be more insidious. Like I dreamed that it was modern day and everything was the same except my parents were still alive and got to meet their grandkids. I spent half a day believing it was true then suddenly it hit me at work, after lunch, that they were long dead. For a few moments I was confused and then I was very sad. It was like losing them all over again. My bad dreams tend to be happy dreams that turn into nightmares when I awake. That is one example but there are others nearly as unpleasant. That must be difficult. I've had one or two where I saw my mother who had been dead these ~20 years. I've not had the kind of vivid experience you described.
|
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Sept 24, 2022 18:11:03 GMT
My dreams tend to be more insidious. Like I dreamed that it was modern day and everything was the same except my parents were still alive and got to meet their grandkids. I spent half a day believing it was true then suddenly it hit me at work, after lunch, that they were long dead. For a few moments I was confused and then I was very sad. It was like losing them all over again. My bad dreams tend to be happy dreams that turn into nightmares when I awake. That is one example but there are others nearly as unpleasant. That must be difficult. I've had one or two where I saw my mother who had been dead these ~20 years. I've not had the kind of vivid experience you described. I lost my father 20 years ago too.
|
|
