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Post by Rey Kahuka on Nov 22, 2022 19:41:15 GMT
How did Thanos acquire all of his armies? Surely they served a different master before him, or did he create them? We don't know, and they don't tell us, because it isn't important to the story. You can put as much thought as you want into offscreen backstory, the fact that it doesn't appear on screen because it doesn't serve the story at all does not make it a plot hole. It isn't valid criticism. Valid criticism would be saying the movie runs too long and is slow in the middle. Valid criticism would be asking why the hell the Wakandans, setting a trap or not, would ever think taking on the undersea supermen in the middle of the ocean was a good idea. You could even make the argument that a movie titled 'Wakanda Forever' could've specifically been about the political upheaval that happened during and after the blip; I actually think it would be an interesting story. But it isn't required reading for the MCU narrative. Thinking it would be intriguing, perhaps more intriguing than what we got-- that's up to the viewer-- is wholly separate from pretending it's a plot hole because it isn't explained. The only MCU property that I can think of that delved into geopolitics of the blip was F&TWS, I don't know why Wakanda Forever is supposed to fill in the blanks when no other movie did. (And again, the simple answer is that it's background detail that isn't particularly engaging for general audiences.) I also don't know how US elections functioned during or after the blip, or which politicians disappeared, etc. I can head canon it all I want to, but I'm not expecting a streaming series or even five minutes in an upcoming film devoted to explaining it all because someone on the internet decided it's a plot hole. It isn't. It's backstory that isn't important to the narrative going forward. Thanos is established to have been a powerful warlord who's been on a warpath for quite some time. So it's logical to assume he has an army. No leaps in logic there.In comparison, Romanda was never established to be a powerful warrior nor was it established how she ended up becoming queen. So questioning how she ended up becoming queen when it was established that you become ruler of Wakanda via trial of combat... that's a legitimate question to ask. Yes, the movie might not have had enough time to explain it. Yes, I understand Coogler was jerry-rigging stuff after Boseman died. That doesn't mean the criticism is invalid. Did it stop me from enjoying the movie? Hell no. But am I going to be honest enough to admit it's an inconsistency? Definitely.If you disagree with me then I won't force you, but this will just need to be one of those things we'll need to agree to disagree on. Where is the inconsistency? Hers was the ruling family at the time of the battle that consumed their nation and ended with half the world's population disappearing. From what we see in Black Panther, M'Baku was the only challenger to T'Challa for the throne and the title of Black Panther. The other tribes didn't bother to challenge. No subplots about their motivation or lack thereof were necessary. For whatever reason, they were satisfied to keep with the status quo. The entire kingdom, and only one man challenged them. How is it a leap in logic to assume that the kingdom wouldn't bother challenging for the throne when they just experienced an apocalyptic event? When the last time only one man did? The people didn't want to risk further political/social upheaval, they wanted to rebuild and mourn their dead. It takes much less effort to make that assumption than to imagine some Wakandan civil war or Ramonda fighting in a trial by combat. Those are ridiculous conclusions to draw, in comparison. The obvious scenario that I've put forth is no less logical a conclusion than Thanos having an army because he's a warlord. They never showed him acquire those armies, we can intuit that he defeated other armies while building his own forces over time. The audience should be able to intuit these things; no leaps of logic are necessary, given what's already been established on screen.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Nov 22, 2022 21:19:28 GMT
I thought it was kinda dull. Part of that could be marvel fatigue, especially with the shows, which this could pass for stripped down to movie length.
Obviously the Chadwick conundrum was an unenviable position for everyone (except I guess Letitia Wright), but I didn't much care for their solution. I don't know what happens in the comics and don't really care, but forcing Shuri out of her charming role as the Q and into the role of Bond I think was a mistake. You want a vengeful asskicker, Lupita Nyong'o is *right there* and with nothing to do but plop out a bastard for a post credit stinger.
On that note, thanks for forcing Agent Vanilla into this just because he was in the last one. I never thought Martin Freeman could be an unwelcome presence, but he has no reason to be in these movies except to reassure white folks the filmmakers don't hate ALL of us. Thanks but no thanks. Agent Elaine was also out of place. So much of this is like a self serious grief drama, then you have a blue haired tv guest star slide on in making shitty quips. Thanks again.
Oh yeah, and Namor was in this. If you liked Kilmonger but thought he had too much personality and motivation, here you go.
The two things I really liked were Basset (especially in that scene where she demotes Michonne), and the 45 seconds we got of the real Kilmonger.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Nov 22, 2022 22:00:59 GMT
From browsing through the Internet, it’s starting to look like Shuri and Namor might be the new Reylo, which would certainly be a choice, if it were to be made official…
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2022 1:20:47 GMT
Did anyone else find the effects in Wakanda to be kind of off? The skyline was always washed out and low contrast.
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Post by merh on Nov 23, 2022 1:59:58 GMT
How did Thanos acquire all of his armies? Surely they served a different master before him, or did he create them? We don't know, and they don't tell us, because it isn't important to the story. You can put as much thought as you want into offscreen backstory, the fact that it doesn't appear on screen because it doesn't serve the story at all does not make it a plot hole. It isn't valid criticism. Valid criticism would be saying the movie runs too long and is slow in the middle. Valid criticism would be asking why the hell the Wakandans, setting a trap or not, would ever think taking on the undersea supermen in the middle of the ocean was a good idea. You could even make the argument that a movie titled 'Wakanda Forever' could've specifically been about the political upheaval that happened during and after the blip; I actually think it would be an interesting story. But it isn't required reading for the MCU narrative. Thinking it would be intriguing, perhaps more intriguing than what we got-- that's up to the viewer-- is wholly separate from pretending it's a plot hole because it isn't explained. The only MCU property that I can think of that delved into geopolitics of the blip was F&TWS, I don't know why Wakanda Forever is supposed to fill in the blanks when no other movie did. (And again, the simple answer is that it's background detail that isn't particularly engaging for general audiences.) I also don't know how US elections functioned during or after the blip, or which politicians disappeared, etc. I can head canon it all I want to, but I'm not expecting a streaming series or even five minutes in an upcoming film devoted to explaining it all because someone on the internet decided it's a plot hole. It isn't. It's backstory that isn't important to the narrative going forward. Thanos is established to have been a powerful warlord who's been on a warpath for quite some time. So it's logical to assume he has an army. No leaps in logic there. In comparison, Romanda was never established to be a powerful warrior nor was it established how she ended up becoming queen. So questioning how she ended up becoming queen when it was established that you become ruler of Wakanda via trial of combat... that's a legitimate question to ask. Yes, the movie might not have had enough time to explain it. Yes, I understand Coogler was jerry-rigging stuff after Boseman died. That doesn't mean the criticism is invalid. Did it stop me from enjoying the movie? Hell no. But am I going to be honest enough to admit it's an inconsistency? Definitely. If you disagree with me then I won't force you, but this will just need to be one of those things we'll need to agree to disagree on. There was no king to challenge. So if she stood up & no one challenged her, she would be queen. In light of T'Challa & Shuri blipping, not to mention half the population, are you really pushing the idea someone wanted to fight a sad, grieving old woman for the crown?
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Post by merh on Nov 23, 2022 2:04:12 GMT
I thought it was kinda dull. Part of that could be marvel fatigue, especially with the shows, which this could pass for stripped down to movie length. Obviously the Chadwick conundrum was an unenviable position for everyone (except I guess Letitia Wright), but I didn't much care for their solution. I don't know what happens in the comics and don't really care, but forcing Shuri out of her charming role as the Q and into the role of Bond I think was a mistake. You want a vengeful asskicker, Lupita Nyong'o is *right there* and with nothing to do but plop out a bastard for a post credit stinger. On that note, thanks for forcing Agent Vanilla into this just because he was in the last one. I never thought Martin Freeman could be an unwelcome presence, but he has no reason to be in these movies except to reassure white folks the filmmakers don't hate ALL of us. Thanks but no thanks. Agent Elaine was also out of place. So much of this is like a self serious grief drama, then you have a blue haired tv guest star slide on in making shitty quips. Thanks again. Oh yeah, and Namor was in this. If you liked Kilmonger but thought he had too much personality and motivation, here you go. The two things I really liked were Basset (especially in that scene where she demotes Michonne), and the 45 seconds we got of the real Kilmonger. Namor would hand Killmonger his head. Namor is looking out for his people. Do you think he wanted Riri? Or was he manipulating the Wakandans? He ended up with what he went for, an alliance with Wakanda.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Nov 23, 2022 2:52:39 GMT
I thought it was kinda dull. Part of that could be marvel fatigue, especially with the shows, which this could pass for stripped down to movie length. Obviously the Chadwick conundrum was an unenviable position for everyone (except I guess Letitia Wright), but I didn't much care for their solution. I don't know what happens in the comics and don't really care, but forcing Shuri out of her charming role as the Q and into the role of Bond I think was a mistake. You want a vengeful asskicker, Lupita Nyong'o is *right there* and with nothing to do but plop out a bastard for a post credit stinger. On that note, thanks for forcing Agent Vanilla into this just because he was in the last one. I never thought Martin Freeman could be an unwelcome presence, but he has no reason to be in these movies except to reassure white folks the filmmakers don't hate ALL of us. Thanks but no thanks. Agent Elaine was also out of place. So much of this is like a self serious grief drama, then you have a blue haired tv guest star slide on in making shitty quips. Thanks again. Oh yeah, and Namor was in this. If you liked Kilmonger but thought he had too much personality and motivation, here you go. The two things I really liked were Basset (especially in that scene where she demotes Michonne), and the 45 seconds we got of the real Kilmonger. Namor would hand Killmonger his head. Namor is looking out for his people. Do you think he wanted Riri? Or was he manipulating the Wakandans? He ended up with what he went for, an alliance with Wakanda. Are you implying he murdered the queen sending her daughter on a vengeful warpath where she nearly butchered him, all the while somehow knowing she'd spare him at the last second? Seemed to me me he fell ass backwards into that alliance, because good is dumb.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 23, 2022 4:14:20 GMT
Thanos is established to have been a powerful warlord who's been on a warpath for quite some time. So it's logical to assume he has an army. No leaps in logic there. In comparison, Romanda was never established to be a powerful warrior nor was it established how she ended up becoming queen. So questioning how she ended up becoming queen when it was established that you become ruler of Wakanda via trial of combat... that's a legitimate question to ask. Yes, the movie might not have had enough time to explain it. Yes, I understand Coogler was jerry-rigging stuff after Boseman died. That doesn't mean the criticism is invalid. Did it stop me from enjoying the movie? Hell no. But am I going to be honest enough to admit it's an inconsistency? Definitely. If you disagree with me then I won't force you, but this will just need to be one of those things we'll need to agree to disagree on. There was no king to challenge. So if she stood up & no one challenged her, she would be queen. In light of T'Challa & Shuri blipping, not to mention half the population, are you really pushing the idea someone wanted to fight a sad, grieving old woman for the crown? Within the first year? No. But in 5 years without a single challenge despite her not having any credentials for rulership? That's a lot of assumptions. You're also assuming she was the queen in those 5 years and that she herself didn't blip.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2022 4:37:02 GMT
The original script supposedly dealt very heavily with TChalla returning from the snap and making up for his absence. The things you all are discussing were probably addressed. However given that this movie had to deal with TChalla’s actual death they scrapped all of that.
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Post by Power Ranger on Nov 23, 2022 5:12:21 GMT
I got it from this guy. He’s not bad. Ugh...Its got to be in the youtube agreement that people who criticize films have to sound so pretentious. It's every single one. The level of snarky passive agressiveness is astounding. Yeah he does sound a little pretentious. But he makes good points.
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Post by Power Ranger on Nov 23, 2022 5:13:41 GMT
Not yet. Was thinking about either going Thursday or Friday to the theaters. Not going to lie though, I kinda wish it was on Disney+. Would have made things easier for me. Honestly i may just end up waiting for the Disney+ release. Flu season is kicking my ass and the upcoming holidays will make it harder to find time to go the theaters. Besides i already read all the spoilers, so i know what goes down anyway. Racist.
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Post by Oh My Aching Ackbar-Raddus! on Nov 23, 2022 5:35:13 GMT
How did Thanos acquire all of his armies? Surely they served a different master before him, or did he create them? We don't know, and they don't tell us, because it isn't important to the story. You can put as much thought as you want into offscreen backstory, the fact that it doesn't appear on screen because it doesn't serve the story at all does not make it a plot hole. It isn't valid criticism. Valid criticism would be saying the movie runs too long and is slow in the middle. Valid criticism would be asking why the hell the Wakandans, setting a trap or not, would ever think taking on the undersea supermen in the middle of the ocean was a good idea. You could even make the argument that a movie titled 'Wakanda Forever' could've specifically been about the political upheaval that happened during and after the blip; I actually think it would be an interesting story. But it isn't required reading for the MCU narrative. Thinking it would be intriguing, perhaps more intriguing than what we got-- that's up to the viewer-- is wholly separate from pretending it's a plot hole because it isn't explained. The only MCU property that I can think of that delved into geopolitics of the blip was F&TWS, I don't know why Wakanda Forever is supposed to fill in the blanks when no other movie did. (And again, the simple answer is that it's background detail that isn't particularly engaging for general audiences.) I also don't know how US elections functioned during or after the blip, or which politicians disappeared, etc. I can head canon it all I want to, but I'm not expecting a streaming series or even five minutes in an upcoming film devoted to explaining it all because someone on the internet decided it's a plot hole. It isn't. It's backstory that isn't important to the narrative going forward. Thanos is established to have been a powerful warlord who's been on a warpath for quite some time. So it's logical to assume he has an army. No leaps in logic there. In comparison, Romanda was never established to be a powerful warrior nor was it established how she ended up becoming queen. So questioning how she ended up becoming queen when it was established that you become ruler of Wakanda via trial of combat... that's a legitimate question to ask. Yes, the movie might not have had enough time to explain it. Yes, I understand Coogler was jerry-rigging stuff after Boseman died. That doesn't mean the criticism is invalid. Did it stop me from enjoying the movie? Hell no. But am I going to be honest enough to admit it's an inconsistency? Definitely. If you disagree with me then I won't force you, but this will just need to be one of those things we'll need to agree to disagree on. It’s possible - even likely - that she was never challenged. If you go back and watch the ritual combat scene in the first Black Panther between T’challa and M’baku the people are surprised he is there. That’s because the ritual combat had become a formality. M’baku’s tribe had a habit of not even showing up. No one had objected to a ruler ascending the throne in hundreds of years.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Nov 29, 2022 18:29:25 GMT
Thanos is established to have been a powerful warlord who's been on a warpath for quite some time. So it's logical to assume he has an army. No leaps in logic there. In comparison, Romanda was never established to be a powerful warrior nor was it established how she ended up becoming queen. So questioning how she ended up becoming queen when it was established that you become ruler of Wakanda via trial of combat... that's a legitimate question to ask. Yes, the movie might not have had enough time to explain it. Yes, I understand Coogler was jerry-rigging stuff after Boseman died. That doesn't mean the criticism is invalid. Did it stop me from enjoying the movie? Hell no. But am I going to be honest enough to admit it's an inconsistency? Definitely. If you disagree with me then I won't force you, but this will just need to be one of those things we'll need to agree to disagree on. It’s possible - even likely - that she was never challenged. If you go back and watch the ritual combat scene in the first Black Panther between T’challa and M’baku the people are surprised he is there. That’s because the ritual combat had become a formality. M’baku’s tribe had a habit of not even showing up. No one had objected to a ruler ascending the throne in hundreds of years. Exactly! They made it very clear that challenges to the passing of the throne from parent to child were extremely rare. There was never a requirement to win the throne through combat.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Nov 29, 2022 23:16:29 GMT
It’s possible - even likely - that she was never challenged. If you go back and watch the ritual combat scene in the first Black Panther between T’challa and M’baku the people are surprised he is there. That’s because the ritual combat had become a formality. M’baku’s tribe had a habit of not even showing up. No one had objected to a ruler ascending the throne in hundreds of years. Exactly! They made it very clear that challenges to the passing of the throne from parent to child were extremely rare. There was never a requirement to win the throne through combat. I brought this up and I was told I was making 'wild leaps in logic.' Some people just need to watch the first movie again.
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Post by politicidal on Nov 30, 2022 20:00:42 GMT
Deleted scene with Shuri and Riri:
"...There was a subplot in it where Shuri and Riri work together to help Namor do something in Talokan, and it was the vessel for Shuri and Riri to bond and to feel their smart scientists' connection that they have, which we were able to implement later in the movie with reshoots. When we took that section out that solved one problem, but then came several other issues because then we felt like Riri wasn't as involved in the story in the movie. [She] basically became a MacGuffin as opposed to a real character which we don't like, people should be fleshed out, real people. And so we had to find ways to have them connect. Once that gets taken out then there was less of a relationship, but there was also less plot stuff that [was] keeping us informed."
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Post by Skaathar on Dec 6, 2022 6:19:03 GMT
Thanos is established to have been a powerful warlord who's been on a warpath for quite some time. So it's logical to assume he has an army. No leaps in logic there. In comparison, Romanda was never established to be a powerful warrior nor was it established how she ended up becoming queen. So questioning how she ended up becoming queen when it was established that you become ruler of Wakanda via trial of combat... that's a legitimate question to ask. Yes, the movie might not have had enough time to explain it. Yes, I understand Coogler was jerry-rigging stuff after Boseman died. That doesn't mean the criticism is invalid. Did it stop me from enjoying the movie? Hell no. But am I going to be honest enough to admit it's an inconsistency? Definitely. If you disagree with me then I won't force you, but this will just need to be one of those things we'll need to agree to disagree on. It’s possible - even likely - that she was never challenged. If you go back and watch the ritual combat scene in the first Black Panther between T’challa and M’baku the people are surprised he is there. That’s because the ritual combat had become a formality. M’baku’s tribe had a habit of not even showing up. No one had objected to a ruler ascending the throne in hundreds of years. Romanda is not T'Challa. Remember that prior to being king, T'Challa had already been Black Panther for an indeterminate amount of time. Which means he had already proven himself in combat multiple times. So it makes sense that not a lot of people would wish to challenge what basically amounts to the reigning champion. That's a very different situation from Romanda's. As I told Reykahuka, to apply the same situation to Romanda would require making quite a lot of assumptions. Also, what made you say that nobody had objected to a ruler for hundreds of years? Was this mentioned anywhere in the movies?
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Post by politicidal on Dec 7, 2022 16:45:35 GMT
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Post by thisguy4000 on Dec 7, 2022 16:59:10 GMT
It’s possible - even likely - that she was never challenged. If you go back and watch the ritual combat scene in the first Black Panther between T’challa and M’baku the people are surprised he is there. That’s because the ritual combat had become a formality. M’baku’s tribe had a habit of not even showing up. No one had objected to a ruler ascending the throne in hundreds of years. Romanda is not T'Challa. Remember that prior to being king, T'Challa had already been Black Panther for an indeterminate amount of time. Which means he had already proven himself in combat multiple times. So it makes sense that not a lot of people would wish to challenge what basically amounts to the reigning champion. That's a very different situation from Romanda's. As I told Reykahuka, to apply the same situation to Romanda would require making quite a lot of assumptions. Also, what made you say that nobody had objected to a ruler for hundreds of years? Was this mentioned anywhere in the movies? No one wanted to fight a grieving old woman for the throne. It’s as simple for that.
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Post by politicidal on Dec 7, 2022 17:11:44 GMT
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Post by merh on Dec 7, 2022 23:31:16 GMT
Namor would hand Killmonger his head. Namor is looking out for his people. Do you think he wanted Riri? Or was he manipulating the Wakandans? He ended up with what he went for, an alliance with Wakanda. Are you implying he murdered the queen sending her daughter on a vengeful warpath where she nearly butchered him, all the while somehow knowing she'd spare him at the last second? Seemed to me me he fell ass backwards into that alliance, because good is dumb. He told the Queen he would kill her if she betrayed him. She betrayed him. He obviously didn't think Shuri would find any way to defeat him. He was shocked at the drying, yet the AI said Namor was very effectively damaging the ship so he also had power on his side. Not to mention the amount of charm he was laying on Shuri.
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