djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 11, 2023 19:02:50 GMT
I dunno, if you lived under a powerful dictator, would you really have a choice but to submit to his laws? God on the other hand gives you free will. He doesn’t force you. You either want to follow him, live by his rules, which by the way is literally the only way to obtain true peace and joy. Or you decide to be spiritually separate from Him and do your own thing and ultimately still end up unhappy or unfulfilled. Sorry, I had deleted my answer. Here's my shorter, simpler answer: There are plenty of Bible verses talking about what's in store for those who reject God's rule. It sounds pretty terrible. So, as I just said, I'd live by His rules, even if I disapprove of Him. Yeah I get that. But the bible says you don’t submit to his rules in this life because you’re spiritually dead and when you’re spiritually dead it’s impossible to live in the flesh and submit to his rules. You will come back and say no it’s simply because you lack belief that a God exists, but we’ve seen already throughout this thread the hostility towards Christianity and rejection of God is less evidence based and more dislike/hatred towards God and his rules and teachings.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 11, 2023 20:46:12 GMT
Sorry, I had deleted my answer. Here's my shorter, simpler answer: There are plenty of Bible verses talking about what's in store for those who reject God's rule. It sounds pretty terrible. So, as I just said, I'd live by His rules, even if I disapprove of Him. Yeah I get that. But the bible says you don’t submit to his rules in this life because you’re spiritually dead and when you’re spiritually dead it’s impossible to live in the flesh and submit to his rules. You will come back and say no it’s simply because you lack belief that a God exists, but we’ve seen already throughout this thread the hostility towards Christianity and rejection of God is less evidence based and more dislike/hatred towards God and his rules and teachings. If, as you say, you "get that", then you know (despite the Bible) that a person can agree to submit to rules without fondness for the rule maker. That lack of fondness seems, in your view, to disqualify that person as a Christian. OK, let's say it does. That would be the fault of a God who decides that simple obedience isn't enough to qualify. And this is second time you've told me in advance (incorrectly) what I will say. Break the habit.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 11, 2023 20:59:14 GMT
So mormons, westboro baptists, catholics and anglicans believe the same thing do they? How about branch Davidians, Jehovahs witnesses?? Hell there are enough diffrences just in Anglican churches that anglicanism is not really a monolith either. Well the thing is we have an objective standard to define what is and is not Christianity. Mormons, JWs and Davidians etc reject and/or contradict historical traditional church orthodoxy. That makes them heretical cults. Whereas Baptists, Catholics and Anglicans all agree on core church doctrine and creeds. And all Scotsmen drink Whiskey
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Post by Sarge on Jan 11, 2023 21:16:21 GMT
So mormons, westboro baptists, catholics and anglicans believe the same thing do they? How about branch Davidians, Jehovahs witnesses?? Hell there are enough diffrences just in Anglican churches that anglicanism is not really a monolith either. Well the thing is we have an objective standard to define what is and is not Christianity. What you have is a fable of conformity, but Christian sects have profound differences, and it isn't you that gets to decide what is or isn't Christian. Christianity has no gatekeeper.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 12, 2023 4:05:09 GMT
"Brother, I’m getting the impression you simply want to argue for the sake of arguing." Translation: "Please don't address my awful arguments, they're very easy to tear apart". Yes, this is a forum for discussing and debating religion, so yeah what else would this place be if not for the "sake of arguing"? Do you just want a safespace where you aren't getting challenged on anything? Then maybe you shouldn't post on here. "Are you a little butthurt I called you out the other day on your blatant hostility towards the potential truth of Christianity?" I already addressed this, I also don't look the idea of man-eating ogres existing but luckily there's no actual evidence for them, notice how you never addressed that argument. "Regarding the NTS, all I can say is. Believing in the trinity is arguably the most fundamental and important tenet of Christianity." The word "trinity" is never actually mentioned in the Bible, so I dunno how you came to that conclusion. It's your own arbitrary standard you completely concocted in your head to write of the sects of Christianity you don't like. "Mormons and JWs do not believe in the trinity. Therefore, Mormons and JWs are not Christians." Yeah so No True Scottsman, again the word "trinity" is never actually mentioned in the Bible. "Catholicism does not contradict the core historical traditional tenets of Christianity though" I wasn't talking about Catholicism, I was talking about Protestants, by your own standard they wouldn't be "true Christians" because they rejected the "historical traditional church orthodoxy" of the catholic church that had already been around for hundreds of years at the time. So are you gonna walk back that statement now? "Those examples you cited are not core beliefs though." Well by your own completely arbitrary standards they're not "core beliefs", I could hypothetically just as easily say the "trinity" isn't a core belief either according to my own standards, you can try and make an argument how it's completely different from those others (you're probably not going to) Bro, the underlying problem here is that you simply don’t fully understand Christianity. You have this perception, most likely shaped by secular liberal propaganda, that’s given you the impression that Christianity is irrelevant, bigoted, outdated, promotes discrimination, is oppressive etc. And you cling to this viewpoint, in my opinion, largely because of sin. I’m going to use Christian terminology here but you are willingly spiritually separated from God. Which means you have a completely carnal worldview of life and refuse to submit to God. The bible says… For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,”Romans 8:6-7 I understand Christianity better than you and I’m atheist. Actually, that’s why I’m an atheist. And you are judging using what you think God thinks of folks around here and that is a profound sin. You don’t know the mind of God, little man.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 6:32:01 GMT
You don’t know the mind of God, little man. I thought that was just for me. I don't feel special anymore.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jan 12, 2023 10:42:10 GMT
You are aware that the Christ part of Christianity refers to JESUS, yeah? Christianity pretty much is a monolith. There’s just a lot of imposters who make up or add a bunch of stuff and call themselves Christian churches. Christianity has never been a monolith. Indeed, no religion has ever been less unified than Christianity. From schisms here, to burning of heretics there, to massive wars over which Christianity is right, Christianity is the least monolithic religion in recorded history. There's hardly anything Christians can agree on. The vast majority of them follow more or less the same Bible, but they can't agree on what it says. Why, they can't even agree on what the 10 commandments are, let alone God's will or God's nature.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 12, 2023 11:47:39 GMT
Bro, the underlying problem here is that you simply don’t fully understand Christianity. You have this perception, most likely shaped by secular liberal propaganda, that’s given you the impression that Christianity is irrelevant, bigoted, outdated, promotes discrimination, is oppressive etc. And you cling to this viewpoint, in my opinion, largely because of sin. I’m going to use Christian terminology here but you are willingly spiritually separated from God. Which means you have a completely carnal worldview of life and refuse to submit to God. The bible says… For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,”Romans 8:6-7 I understand Christianity better than you and I’m atheist. Actually, that’s why I’m an atheist. And you are judging using what you think God thinks of folks around here and that is a profound sin. You don’t know the mind of God, little man. I firmly believe the majority of people who leave Christianity do so because of some kind of sin in their life, that they’re unwilling to repent of. A while back I made this same claim to a prominent atheist on twitter who was a former Christian, who regularly engages in public debates and polemics against the reliability of the bible. He got really irate and started telling me that I’m talking “bs” and even insisted I debate him on Christianity. Many of his followers piled in on the comment section to back him up. A few months later it came to light that he’d just been arrested for abusing his girlfriend’s son and had a history of that sort of thing and some of other felonies. He deleted his twitter and hasn’t been seen publicly since.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 12, 2023 12:01:45 GMT
I understand Christianity better than you and I’m atheist. Actually, that’s why I’m an atheist. And you are judging using what you think God thinks of folks around here and that is a profound sin. You don’t know the mind of God, little man. I firmly believe the majority of people who leave Christianity do so because of some kind of sin in their life, that they’re unwilling to repent of. A while back I made this same claim to a prominent atheist on twitter who was a former Christian, who regularly engages in public debates and polemics against the reliability of the bible. He got really irate and started telling me that I’m talking “bs” and even insisted I debate him on Christianity. Many of his followers piled in on the comment section to back him up. A few months later it came to light that he’d just been arrested for abusing his girlfriend’s son and had a history of that sort of thing and some of other felonies. He deleted his twitter and hasn’t been seen publicly since. That’s a personal anecdote and got nothing to do with all the other atheists in the world and you might not be telling the truth. Over the 20 centuries, too many churches and followers have been extremely dishonest in the name of God, that I do not trust you guys to tell the truth. You might be honest, but there’s no way to test your honesty. However, if the Gospels are true to Jesus’ preaching, he doesn’t look kindly upon humans doing God’s judging for him. You have no clue who is in Hell and who is not. Only your God knows that.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 12, 2023 12:10:07 GMT
I firmly believe the majority of people who leave Christianity do so because of some kind of sin in their life, that they’re unwilling to repent of. A while back I made this same claim to a prominent atheist on twitter who was a former Christian, who regularly engages in public debates and polemics against the reliability of the bible. He got really irate and started telling me that I’m talking “bs” and even insisted I debate him on Christianity. Many of his followers piled in on the comment section to back him up. A few months later it came to light that he’d just been arrested for abusing his girlfriend’s son and had a history of that sort of thing and some of other felonies. He deleted his twitter and hasn’t been seen publicly since. That’s a personal anecdote and got nothing to do with all the other atheists in the world and you might not be telling the truth. Over the 20 centuries, too many churches and followers have been extremely dishonest in the name of God, that I do not trust you guys to tell the truth. You might be honest, but there’s no way to test your honesty. However, if the Gospels are true to Jesus’ preaching, he doesn’t look kindly upon humans doing God’s judging for him. You have no clue who is in Hell and who is not. Only your God knows that. This is the best archive I could find on twitter: heres one of his debates:
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 12, 2023 12:16:04 GMT
That’s a personal anecdote and got nothing to do with all the other atheists in the world and you might not be telling the truth. Over the 20 centuries, too many churches and followers have been extremely dishonest in the name of God, that I do not trust you guys to tell the truth. You might be honest, but there’s no way to test your honesty. However, if the Gospels are true to Jesus’ preaching, he doesn’t look kindly upon humans doing God’s judging for him. You have no clue who is in Hell and who is not. Only your God knows that. This is the best archive I could find on twitter: heres one of his debates: So the atheist in the story is Gomer Pyle? You’re down the rabbit hole.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 12, 2023 12:20:19 GMT
This is the best archive I could find on twitter: heres one of his debates: So the atheist in the story is Gomer Pyle? You’re down the rabbit hole. Jim “the moustache” Majors was his twitter handle. I think that’s his real name, minus “the moustache” part.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 12, 2023 14:32:43 GMT
Loving God, though expected is not required. That point seems to stick in the OP's craw. He, somehow, can't imagine someone not loving this God of the Bible. If Christianity is true, then God is all-loving. I can’t get my head around wilfully disliking a being who is all-loving. Maybe it’s just me.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 12, 2023 16:00:16 GMT
That point seems to stick in the OP's craw. He, somehow, can't imagine someone not loving this God of the Bible. If Christianity is true, then God is all-loving. I can’t get my head around wilfully disliking a being who is all-loving. Maybe it’s just me. The most unloving (and unjust) thing that I can think of for anyone in a position of power to do is to decree the execution of children for the fault of their parent. It's hard to think of something more heinous, more unjust, more unloving and just plain more monstrous than that. And the God of the Bible does just that on various occasions. Actions speak louder than words. I find it hard to accept Biblical claims that "God is love" when the same Bible shows actions by God that are as unloving as one can imagine. Maybe it's just me.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 12, 2023 16:19:06 GMT
If Christianity is true, then God is all-loving. I can’t get my head around wilfully disliking a being who is all-loving. Maybe it’s just me. The most unloving (and unjust) thing that I can think of for anyone in a position of power to do is to decree the execution of children for the fault of their parent. It's hard to think of something more heinous, more unjust, more unloving than that. And the God of the Bible does just that on various occasions. Actions speak louder than words. I find it hard to accept Biblical claims that "God is love" when the same Bible shows actions by God that are as unloving as one can imagine. Maybe it's just me. Again by what standard are you using in judging those actions to be wrong other than your own arbitrary personal biased opinion? Also as I’ve pointed out already no one will be punished for their father’s crime. We will all be judged according to our sins. “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.” Ezekiel 18:20
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 16:23:44 GMT
The most unloving (and unjust) thing that I can think of for anyone in a position of power to do is to decree the execution of children for the fault of their parent. It's hard to think of something more heinous, more unjust, more unloving than that. And the God of the Bible does just that on various occasions. Actions speak louder than words. I find it hard to accept Biblical claims that "God is love" when the same Bible shows actions by God that are as unloving as one can imagine. Maybe it's just me. Also as I’ve pointed out already no one will be punished for their father’s crime. That's not true... The Old Testament God forgives people their own transgressions, and takes out that person's sins on their generations to come. In numerous instances. The Old Testament God is a nasty vicious bastard.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 12, 2023 16:33:16 GMT
Also as I’ve pointed out already no one will be punished for their father’s crime. That's not true... The Old Testament God forgives people their own transgressions, and takes out that person's sins on their generations to come. In numerous instances. The Old Testament God is a nasty vicious bastard. Interesting. Can you cite the books, chapters & verses you’re referring to, Jack?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 16:34:29 GMT
That's not true... The Old Testament God forgives people their own transgressions, and takes out that person's sins on their generations to come. In numerous instances. The Old Testament God is a nasty vicious bastard. Interesting. Can you cite the books, chapters & verses you’re referring to, Jake? Just read anywhere in Kings. It's a total slaughterhouse of the innocents.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 12, 2023 16:35:05 GMT
Interesting. Can you cite the books, chapters & verses you’re referring to, Jake? Just read anywhere in Kings. Could you be a bit more specific?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 16:36:44 GMT
Just read anywhere in Kings. Could you be a bit more specific? Read kings... Plenty of "I'll let you live, but torture, plague, and kill all your descendants" And don't get me started on Samuel... I'm a horror movie fan, but Samuel in the Old Testament is too much. The Old Testament is about as anti-Christian as you can get.
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