djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 12, 2023 17:16:21 GMT
Could you be a bit more specific? Read kings... Plenty of "I'll let you live, but torture, plague, and kill all your descendants" And don't get me started on Samuel... I'm a horror movie fan, but Samuel in the Old Testament is too much. The Old Testament is about as anti-Christian as you can get. I think you might be conflating guilt with consequences.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 17:20:13 GMT
Read kings... Plenty of "I'll let you live, but torture, plague, and kill all your descendants" And don't get me started on Samuel... I'm a horror movie fan, but Samuel in the Old Testament is too much. The Old Testament is about as anti-Christian as you can get. I think you’re conflating guilt with consequences. No. It's very clear. The Old Testament god does it a lot... Let's a transgressor live their life out, then visits the sins of the father on not only their son/s, but all their descendants.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 12, 2023 17:25:15 GMT
Read kings... Plenty of "I'll let you live, but torture, plague, and kill all your descendants" And don't get me started on Samuel... I'm a horror movie fan, but Samuel in the Old Testament is too much. The Old Testament is about as anti-Christian as you can get. I think you’re conflating guilt with consequences. And yet, you refuse to read Kings. I like the Book of Job were God kills Job’s family, ruins his crops, and runs off his livestock over a bet with Satan. Now, Job’s is righteous man and three of his friend come by and explain and explain to him how all these misfortunes are God’s punishment for Job’s sinful behavior, when knows Job knows he never slighted the Lord and refuses to blame Him. In the end God comes by to cease his so-called friends needling and when Job, says why me, Lord? God says, don’t question me.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 12, 2023 17:27:14 GMT
I think you’re conflating guilt with consequences. No. It's very clear. The Old Testament god does it a lot... Let’s a transgressor live their life out, then visits the sins of the father on not only their son/s, but all their descendants. No it’s talking about consequences, bro. The parents sins will have consequences on the lives of their children. It isn’t about the guilt of sin.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 17:31:18 GMT
No. It's very clear. The Old Testament god does it a lot... Let’s a transgressor live their life out, then visits the sins of the father on not only their son/s, but all their descendants. No it’s talking about consequences, bro. The parents sins will have consequences on the lives of their children. It isn’t about the guilt of sin. So you are fine with your children suffering the consequences of your sins... God help them (the Christian God that is, not your vicious violent vengeful Jewish gods).
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jan 12, 2023 17:46:40 GMT
No it’s talking about consequences, bro. The parents sins will have consequences on the lives of their children. It isn’t about the guilt of sin. So you are fine with your children suffering the consequences of your sins... God help them (the Christian God that is, not your vicious violent vengeful Jewish gods). This is slightly OT, but... The parents' sins will have consequences on the lives of their children. Out of religious context, just think of what the offspring of Donald Trump will experience in their lives because they are related to that asshat. If I was Barron, I would go into seclusion for years, have cosmetic surgery, change my name and move across the world and start a new life. And not have children. Let that genetic bloodline die out.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 12, 2023 17:58:29 GMT
The most unloving (and unjust) thing that I can think of for anyone in a position of power to do is to decree the execution of children for the fault of their parent. It's hard to think of something more heinous, more unjust, more unloving than that. And the God of the Bible does just that on various occasions. Actions speak louder than words. I find it hard to accept Biblical claims that "God is love" when the same Bible shows actions by God that are as unloving as one can imagine. Maybe it's just me. Again by what standard are you using in judging those actions to be wrong other than your own arbitrary personal biased opinion? ANY standard that doesn't judge the execution of children for the fault of their parent as monstrous is an utter failure to be rejected by any human being who cares about having a standard.As I said, there are the CLAIMS made by you and Ezekiel for God that are belied by the ACTIONS shown by that God. What actions? Let's see: 1) The global flood, of course. God could have just turned the wicked to dust, but He decides that children and babies will drown along with the wicked. 2) Decreeing the first-born sons of Egypt shall die because of the stubbornness of Pharaoh (Ex 11:4-5) 3) Read Numbers 16:27,32 4) Check out 1Samuel 15:3-4 5) AND Ezekiel 9:6 They're all accounts of God ordering innocent children to be killed because of some wickedness of their parents. This is hardly a complete list, but more than enough to make the point. Any claim that God Is Love or that God Is Just cannot be reconciled with His actions recorded in Bible.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 12, 2023 18:15:34 GMT
So you are fine with your children suffering the consequences of your sins... God help them (the Christian God that is, not your vicious violent vengeful Jewish gods). This is slightly OT, but... The parents' sins will have consequences on the lives of their children. Out of religious context, just think of what the offspring of Donald Trump will experience in their lives because they are related to that asshat. If I was Barron, I would go into seclusion for years, have cosmetic surgery, change my name and move across the world and start a new life. And not have children. Let that genetic bloodline die out. Most certainly. But imagine Trump is sentenced for a crime, and the judge likewise sentences Barron to that punishment as well. We could only think the judge is a monster or insane or both. That's the kind of thing we see the God of the Bible do.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jan 12, 2023 18:30:08 GMT
This is slightly OT, but... The parents' sins will have consequences on the lives of their children. Out of religious context, just think of what the offspring of Donald Trump will experience in their lives because they are related to that asshat. If I was Barron, I would go into seclusion for years, have cosmetic surgery, change my name and move across the world and start a new life. And not have children. Let that genetic bloodline die out. Most certainly. But imagine Trump is sentenced for a crime, and the judge likewise sentences Barron to that punishment as well. We could only think the judge is a monster or insane or both. That's the kind of thing we see the God of the Bible do. In religious context, true. I'm no fan of the God of the Bible. But just in a secular sense, if Trump is sentenced in the Jan. 6 incident, Barron will always be seen as the son of a traitor. I don't see that as a reason to not convict Trump of treason, but I do feel sorry for the kid.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 12, 2023 18:48:08 GMT
So you are fine with your children suffering the consequences of your sins... God help them (the Christian God that is, not your vicious violent vengeful Jewish gods). This is slightly OT, but... The parents' sins will have consequences on the lives of their children. Out of religious context, just think of what the offspring of Donald Trump will experience in their lives because they are related to that asshat. If I was Barron, I would go into seclusion for years, have cosmetic surgery, change my name and move across the world and start a new life. And not have children. Let that genetic bloodline die out. I’m not Trump supporter but good grief!. And these people call Christians brainwashed, judgemental, intolerant and hateful. 🤦🏻♂️
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jan 12, 2023 19:15:42 GMT
This is slightly OT, but... The parents' sins will have consequences on the lives of their children. Out of religious context, just think of what the offspring of Donald Trump will experience in their lives because they are related to that asshat. If I was Barron, I would go into seclusion for years, have cosmetic surgery, change my name and move across the world and start a new life. And not have children. Let that genetic bloodline die out. I’m not Trump supporter but good grief!. And these people call Christians brainwashed, judgemental, intolerant and hateful. 🤦🏻♂️ Some Christians are, some are not. There is not one religion or cult or group that doesn't have multiple interpretations by people with a personal agenda. That is why I only deal with facts, not faith. I've been conned way too many times by wolves in sheep's clothing.
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 12, 2023 21:21:42 GMT
First of all justification is not a core doctrine or creed of Christianity. Believing one is saved by faith alone or faith and works is not what makes you a Christian. Second of all, it’s simply not true that Catholics believe salvation is earned by “faith AND works”. Neither is it true that the bible contradicts itself on the topic. The bible is explicitly clear that we are saved by faith alone through grace. It’s just that true saving faith will manifest in our works/actions. But it plays no part in helping attain our salvation. First of all, salvation by faith alone IS a core Christian doctrine according to most Evangelical Churches. I didn’t say it’s “what makes you a Christian”. Secondly, no the Bible is NOT clear about salvation and yes it does contradict itself on salvation. See - I can contradict you with no argument too. But, that is my answer for how it is “disproved”. I see evidence of the Bible being false. But you guys have already decided what is “true”, which means you’re never looking for it. As a believer, you have a dog in the fight for there not to be any contradictions, so of course you’re going to ignore them and pretend they’re not there. It’s called cognitive dissonance! But really, if all you have is to just contradict me and say “you’re wrong, and I’m right”, then there’s no point to the conversation. You don’t have to agree with me, and frankly I’d expect a devout religious person not to. At the end of the day, it’s not about what can be demonstrated to be true to you people - it’s only about what reaffirms your faith.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 23:35:34 GMT
Any claim that God Is Love or that God Is Just cannot be reconciled with His actions recorded in Bible. Love isn't always flowers and balloons. js
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Post by Isapop on Jan 12, 2023 23:53:03 GMT
Any claim that God Is Love or that God Is Just cannot be reconciled with His actions recorded in Bible. Love isn't always flowers and balloons. js I suppose that you would place the examples I gave of God decreeing the execution of children for the fault of their parent in the category of "tough love".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2023 0:13:54 GMT
Love isn't always flowers and balloons. js I suppose that you would place the examples I gave of God decreeing the execution of children for the fault of their parent in the category of "tough love". I didn't, but I suppose I could. Seems valid. But I was thinking more along the lines of damning love when it hurts. For example, those who refuse to love again in order to avoid the pain of loss. We praise love when it brings us flowers and balloons, but we curse it when it doesn't.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 13, 2023 1:01:59 GMT
Again by what standard are you using in judging those actions to be wrong other than your own arbitrary personal biased opinion? ANY standard that doesn't judge the execution of children for the fault of their parent as monstrous is an utter failure to be rejected by any human being who cares about having a standard.As I said, there are the CLAIMS made by you and Ezekiel for God that are belied by the ACTIONS shown by that God. What actions? Let's see: 1) The global flood, of course. God could have just turned the wicked to dust, but He decides that children and babies will drown along with the wicked. 2) Decreeing the first-born sons of Egypt shall die because of the stubbornness of Pharaoh (Ex 11:4-5) 3) Read Numbers 16:27,32 4) Check out 1Samuel 15:3-4 5) AND Ezekiel 9:6 They're all accounts of God ordering innocent children to be killed because of some wickedness of their parents. This is hardly a complete list, but more than enough to make the point. Any claim that God Is Love or that God Is Just cannot be reconciled with His actions recorded in Bible. The OT God is not about love, he’s about righteousness. He wants his chosen people to be an example to the sinful nations of his rational living and distain for licentiousness. The Mosaic Law he gave them is not an imposition, but a profound blessing because out of all the great kingdoms, Yahweh chose the lowly tribe of Israel, stuck between mighty powers, to be his messiah’s conduit to Planet Earth at the end of the second sinful age. But first, the tribe must be worthy of the Lord’s righteousness and the Laws are instructions for the tribe on how remain pure in mind, body, and spirit. If they as tribe can stay righteous, then they will be bodily returned to Earth from Sheol, ie the grave, to join in the Chosen One’s New Kingdom of God. They will populate the planet, like in the days Noah, except this time, God is sending a messiah to keep things from going South again. That God directly includes the Jews in his grand order of things is far higher than love. Righteousness is greater than love and this righteousness exempts any misfortunes that may befall non-righteousness in the name of God’s plans. Like the Lord told Job, it’s just business, don’t take it personal. Jesus took the righteousness aspect a step further and commanded a deep, personal familial love for one another that will be needed for the many horrific end of days tribulations about to commence.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 13, 2023 2:17:42 GMT
ANY standard that doesn't judge the execution of children for the fault of their parent as monstrous is an utter failure to be rejected by any human being who cares about having a standard.As I said, there are the CLAIMS made by you and Ezekiel for God that are belied by the ACTIONS shown by that God. What actions? Let's see: 1) The global flood, of course. God could have just turned the wicked to dust, but He decides that children and babies will drown along with the wicked. 2) Decreeing the first-born sons of Egypt shall die because of the stubbornness of Pharaoh (Ex 11:4-5) 3) Read Numbers 16:27,32 4) Check out 1Samuel 15:3-4 5) AND Ezekiel 9:6 They're all accounts of God ordering innocent children to be killed because of some wickedness of their parents. This is hardly a complete list, but more than enough to make the point. Any claim that God Is Love or that God Is Just cannot be reconciled with His actions recorded in Bible. The OT God is not about love, he’s about righteousness. He wants his chosen people to be an example to the sinful nations of his rational living and distain for licentiousness. The Mosaic Law he gave them is not an imposition, but a profound blessing because out of all the great kingdoms, Yahweh chose the lowly tribe of Israel, stuck between mighty powers, to be his messiah’s conduit to Planet Earth at the end of the second sinful age. But first, the tribe must be worthy of the Lord’s righteousness and the Laws are instructions for the tribe on how remain pure in mind, body, and spirit. If they as tribe can stay righteous, then they will be bodily returned to Earth from Sheol, ie the grave, to join in the Chosen One’s New Kingdom of God. They will populate the planet, like in the days Noah, except this time, God is sending a messiah to keep things from going South again. That God directly includes the Jews in his grand order of things is far higher than love. Righteousness is greater than love and this righteousness exempts any misfortunes that may befall non-righteousness in the name of God’s plans. Like the Lord told Job, it’s just business, don’t take it personal. Jesus took the righteousness aspect a step further and commanded a deep, personal familial love for one another that will be needed for the many horrific end of days tribulations about to commence. Of course, to the true believer, there is no OT God vs. NT God. Both Testaments reflect the singular mind and purpose of the One God. So, when somebody wonders how anyone can fail to properly appreciate the "All-loving God" they were taught in Sunday School, their education needs a little broadening.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 13, 2023 2:30:48 GMT
The OT God is not about love, he’s about righteousness. He wants his chosen people to be an example to the sinful nations of his rational living and distain for licentiousness. The Mosaic Law he gave them is not an imposition, but a profound blessing because out of all the great kingdoms, Yahweh chose the lowly tribe of Israel, stuck between mighty powers, to be his messiah’s conduit to Planet Earth at the end of the second sinful age. But first, the tribe must be worthy of the Lord’s righteousness and the Laws are instructions for the tribe on how remain pure in mind, body, and spirit. If they as tribe can stay righteous, then they will be bodily returned to Earth from Sheol, ie the grave, to join in the Chosen One’s New Kingdom of God. They will populate the planet, like in the days Noah, except this time, God is sending a messiah to keep things from going South again. That God directly includes the Jews in his grand order of things is far higher than love. Righteousness is greater than love and this righteousness exempts any misfortunes that may befall non-righteousness in the name of God’s plans. Like the Lord told Job, it’s just business, don’t take it personal. Jesus took the righteousness aspect a step further and commanded a deep, personal familial love for one another that will be needed for the many horrific end of days tribulations about to commence. Of course, to the true believer, there is no OT God vs. NT God. Both Testaments reflect the singular mind and purpose of the One God. So, when somebody wonders how anyone can fail to properly appreciate the "All-loving God" they were taught in Sunday School, their education needs a little broadening. Their conundrum is they believe Jesus is God. And Jesus is a loving, peaceful God whose message is to reject violence and practice peace and lovingkindness.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 13, 2023 5:58:33 GMT
What is loving or righteous about stoning a father and husband for building a fire on the Sabbath to feed his family?
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Post by clusium on Jan 14, 2023 2:40:01 GMT
Did Jesus himself refer to his teachings as Christianity per se? Messiah was attributed to Jesus in scripture, but reference of Christ was likely a religious off-shoot of this. Does this then make Jesus's teaching's about Christianity? Why would he label himself Christ? You could ask the same question about the Buddha & Buddhism, Toasted Cheese. While yes, he called himself " Enlightened," (it was in answer to those who asked him if he was a god or something, after his first public sermon, preaching against desire), did he necessarily intend to start a break-away religion from Hinduism, do you think?
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