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Post by lowtacks86 on Jan 5, 2023 11:47:52 GMT
Even if the claims of Christianity were proven to be true, it would still be up to the individual whether they want to follow its teachings. I think that’s kind of where I’m going with this. Are non-believers dismissive simply because they remain unconvinced by the evidence or is there a preconceived personal bias at play and they just don’t want to submit to the teachings of the faith and do what thou wilt? Maybe it’s a combination of the two in some cases? "Are non-believers dismissive simply because they remain unconvinced by the evidence" What evidence? "there a preconceived personal bias at play and they just don’t want to submit to the teachings of the faith and do what thou wilt" No it's not a "preconceived bias", it's dissmissing something that has no actual evidence. Simple as that.
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Post by heeeeey on Jan 5, 2023 11:57:35 GMT
This thread proves what a bunch of flake cop-outs non-believers are. They can't even answer a simple question because the thought of a Creator offends them so much.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 5, 2023 13:39:03 GMT
Even if the claims of Christianity were proven to be true, it would still be up to the individual whether they want to follow its teachings. I think that’s kind of where I’m going with this. Are non-believers dismissive simply because they remain unconvinced by the evidence or is there a preconceived personal bias at play and they just don’t want to submit to the teachings of the faith and do what thou wilt? Maybe it’s a combination of the two in some cases? I doubt it because believing there is a God might encourage you to follow him but it doesn't force you to. So from that sense believing in God is kinda irrelevant. Apt quote from Sartre: “Existentialism is not atheist in the sense that it would exhaust itself in demonstrations of the non-existence of God. It declares, rather, that even if God existed that would make no difference from its point of view. Not that we believe God does exist, but we think that the real problem is not that of God’s existence — what man needs is to find himself again and to understand that nothing can save him from himself, not even a valid proof of the existence of God.” It's also worth noting that many non-Christians lead very Christian lives and so following its teachings would not be much of an issue for them.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 5, 2023 14:04:12 GMT
Would you become a Christian? I would believe what has been proven. Would believing what has been proven define me as a Christian? If so, then I will have become a Christian. If not, then you'll have to explain what becoming a Christian means.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 5, 2023 15:00:15 GMT
Would you become a Christian? I would believe what has been proven. Would believing what has been proven define me as a Christian? If so, then I will have become a Christian. If not, then you'll have to explain what becoming a Christian means. The simplest way to put it I would say is to believe in the divinity, death & resurrection of Christ. That he died for your sins so that you can be redeemed. Repent of your sins and follow his commandments and teachings. You’re probably going to come back with “well under that definition most Christians are not really Christians then” lol.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 5, 2023 16:49:23 GMT
I would believe what has been proven. Would believing what has been proven define me as a Christian? If so, then I will have become a Christian. If not, then you'll have to explain what becoming a Christian means. The simplest way to put it I would say is to believe in the divinity, death & resurrection of Christ. That he died for your sins so that you can be redeemed. Repent of your sins and follow his commandments and teachings. You’re probably going to come back with “well under that definition most Christians are not really Christians then” lol. No, I would not come back with that, and I've never posted anything that would lead anyone to suppose I would. If you think I have, I'd like to know what it is. (I had more in mind something about distinguishing between the factual assertions of Christianity vs. the assertions that involve value judgments. But your advance "lol" causes me to doubt that it's worth the effort.)
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Post by Sarge on Jan 5, 2023 20:29:37 GMT
Would you become a Christian? Depends on your definition of Christianity, the answer to that isn't so obvious. But likely yes, likely everyone would. I changed my mind.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 5, 2023 20:35:04 GMT
Who wouldn't believe something that is proven to be true? Christians. Flat Earthers. Muslims. Qanon. Republicans. Democrats. Squatchers. Libertarians.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2023 23:31:07 GMT
Even if the claims of Christianity were proven to be true, it would still be up to the individual whether they want to follow its teachings. I think that’s kind of where I’m going with this. Are non-believers dismissive simply because they remain unconvinced by the evidence or is there a preconceived personal bias at play and they just don’t want to submit to the teachings of the faith and do what thou wilt? Maybe it’s a combination of the two in some cases? Romans 1: There are no atheists in hell. js
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 6, 2023 11:03:40 GMT
The simplest way to put it I would say is to believe in the divinity, death & resurrection of Christ. That he died for your sins so that you can be redeemed. Repent of your sins and follow his commandments and teachings. You’re probably going to come back with “well under that definition most Christians are not really Christians then” lol. No, I would not come back with that, and I've never posted anything that would lead anyone to suppose I would. If you think I have, I'd like to know what it is. (I had more in mind something about distinguishing between the factual assertions of Christianity vs. the assertions that involve value judgments. But your advance "lol" causes me to doubt that it's worth the effort.) What about the value judgements? Could you please elaborate.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 6, 2023 11:12:56 GMT
I think that’s kind of where I’m going with this. Are non-believers dismissive simply because they remain unconvinced by the evidence or is there a preconceived personal bias at play and they just don’t want to submit to the teachings of the faith and do what thou wilt? Maybe it’s a combination of the two in some cases? I doubt it because believing there is a God might encourage you to follow him but it doesn't force you to. So from that sense believing in God is kinda irrelevant. Apt quote from Sartre: “Existentialism is not atheist in the sense that it would exhaust itself in demonstrations of the non-existence of God. It declares, rather, that even if God existed that would make no difference from its point of view. Not that we believe God does exist, but we think that the real problem is not that of God’s existence — what man needs is to find himself again and to understand that nothing can save him from himself, not even a valid proof of the existence of God.” It's also worth noting that many non-Christians lead very Christian lives and so following its teachings would not be much of an issue for them. The point is about the motivation. Do non-believers reject the gospel purely because they see the evidence as too insufficient to believe or do they reject it because it’s too inconvenient to their lifestyles and thus they want it to be false through personal bias. Some of the responses here seem to suggest the latter tbh.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 6, 2023 11:14:31 GMT
Would you become a Christian? Depends on your definition of Christianity, the answer to that isn't so obvious. But likely yes, likely everyone would. I changed my mind. Under what definition of Christianity would you accept the faith?
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 6, 2023 11:18:38 GMT
I think that’s kind of where I’m going with this. Are non-believers dismissive simply because they remain unconvinced by the evidence or is there a preconceived personal bias at play and they just don’t want to submit to the teachings of the faith and do what thou wilt? Maybe it’s a combination of the two in some cases? "Are non-believers dismissive simply because they remain unconvinced by the evidence" What evidence? Bro, there is evidence for the truth claims of Christianity. But again I was talking hypothetically. Well your own initial admission seems to testify against that assertion.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jan 6, 2023 12:09:10 GMT
Who wouldn't believe something that is proven to be true? Plenty of people.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 6, 2023 12:11:34 GMT
Why would you need to know that before answering the question? Because if you require Christianity to be proven true, you’re no longer a Christian.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 6, 2023 12:23:53 GMT
"You seem reluctant, even in the face of actual proof" What proof? Give examples. "Do you think this speaks a bit about where your motivations lay and personal bias on the topic?" That I dismiss things that don't have evidence? I meant proof hypothetically. It seems even if it were proven you would become a Christian very reluctantly, and only to escape hell. Some Christian denominations do not believe in a literal Hell, aka universal salvation, such as Seventh Day Adventists. The Catholic Church preaches there is a place called Purgatory, a temporary Hell, as well as a permanent Hell. Some Christians preach Hell will be totally destroyed at the end of time. Other Christians believe there is a Hell, but only God and Satan knows who’s suffering there. (Hitler could be in Purgatory.) So which version of Christianity are talking about it, because this profoundly matters to which answer I might give. Deciding to give one’s life to Christ in humble faith with no proof he is remotely telling the truth or even lived is a deep spiritual exercise we trivialize as a mind game.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jan 6, 2023 13:20:23 GMT
"Are non-believers dismissive simply because they remain unconvinced by the evidence" What evidence? Bro, there is evidence for the truth claims of Christianity. But again I was talking hypothetically. Well your own initial admission seems to testify against that assertion. "Bro, there is evidence for the truth claims of Christianity" You've yet to actually cite any despite me asking several times "But again I was talking hypothetically." That wasn't "hypothetical, you clearly made the claim ("they remain unconvinced by the evidence") "Well your own initial admission seems to testify against that assertion." No it really doesn't, all I ask for is evidence if someone makes a claim. That's not "preconceived" at all, that's just skepticism. In fact skepticism is actually quite the opposite of "preconceived bias", it's means not deciding on an issue until evidence is presented (which you've yet to still provide) and if no evidence is presented, then it's perfectly reasonable to dismiss the claim. Otherwise you would have to believe in any number of riddiculous claims (alien origin theory, virtual simulation reality)
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Post by Isapop on Jan 6, 2023 15:59:29 GMT
No, I would not come back with that, and I've never posted anything that would lead anyone to suppose I would. If you think I have, I'd like to know what it is. (I had more in mind something about distinguishing between the factual assertions of Christianity vs. the assertions that involve value judgments. But your advance "lol" causes me to doubt that it's worth the effort.) What about the value judgements? Could you please elaborate. There are the factual assertions of Christianity, such as: Jesus was born of a virgin, Jesus was sent by God to redeem our sins, Jesus died and was then resurrected. If these things were proven, I'd believe them. But then there are value judgments asserted by Christianity. Take what is probably the most fundamental one: God is good. Suppose I take issue with that value judgment? In my opinion, God's decision (when Adam disobeyed) that sin and its punishment shall be a heritable trait is INFAMOUS. If a judge told a wrongdoer, "Not only do I sentence you for your crime, but I also sentence your unborn children and their unborn children as well", we'd call that judge insane, and have him removed. Then God says he will provide a way, if we do such and such, to escape this punishment that was unjustly imposed by him in the first place. And now we're supposed to think he is wonderful for that? Well, I don't think so. So, here I am, believing the factual assertions of Christianity because they have been proven, but I disapprove of the person who has set it up. A teaching like "Do unto others..." (which predates Christianity) I willingly follow because I think it's right. Does God also want me to sing his praises? If I do, I will only because I'm afraid of the punishment if I don't. So, if I believe those factual assertions about Jesus that I mentioned and that I try to "do unto others", does that mean I'm a Christian despite being of the opinion that God is a dick?
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Post by Sarge on Jan 6, 2023 18:40:17 GMT
Depends on your definition of Christianity, the answer to that isn't so obvious. But likely yes, likely everyone would. I changed my mind. Under what definition of Christianity would you accept the faith? It would no longer be a faith, if it were proven, it would be a fact, like thunderstorms or gravity. I would never accept it on faith, that's why I rejected religion in the first place. As for your question, I'm not sure, you asked the question so what definition are you using?
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Post by Sarge on Jan 6, 2023 18:41:51 GMT
What about the value judgements? Could you please elaborate. There are the factual assertions of Christianity, such as: Jesus was born of a virgin That was added later, a mistranslation carried forward by tradition but factually incorrect according to ancient texts.
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