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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 4:22:29 GMT
Again, with the fallacies. This just keeps getting ridiculous. Not everyone who came into the series wanted to dislike it, most were hoping it would work for them and it didn't, they also knew full well it wouldn't be a straight-up Hulk series. No it doesn't, I just have no familiarity with it. It is a well-liked and popular program; I just have no attachment to it. Enough with the ridiculous conclusions. You cannot compare She-Hulk to Seinfeld in regard to character growth, they are not the same sort of product. She-Hulk was designed to occupy space in the established Marvel Cinematic Universe and progress it further. It is more comedy driven than most of Marvel Studios content, but it has to feel authentic enough to fit into it and the character of Jennifer Walters is supposed to appear in more media in the near future, if you want people to get invested you have to give a solid reason to why the audience should spend their time with them and with little character growth that becomes hard to do. I wasn't talking generally; I was talking about my completely independent point of view. I didn't think Walters became secondary in the episode, it was still very much her show, but the producers handled Daredevil fine and their interaction with each other was pretty fun to see for me. At that point watching I was nervous they would do the character wrong, but they actually made a lighter version of that character work. But they were secretly hoping it would be and they wouldn't really have to put up with Jen at all except as a useless sidekick/damsel for Bruce.
Obviously the lessons it taught have been forgotten.
They are. They're both sitcom series, and She-Hulk does what she's always done in the comics which is break the 4th Wall. I don't see anyone complaining her comics ruin the rest of the Marvel Universe.
It was very much her show getting stolen from her by Daredevil, being dominant the whole time and making her secondary. Precisely what they were hoping the entire show would be, with a male lead being the one really in charge and Jen being a secondary.
I must say for someone who doesn't like a person like an Alex Jones, you certainly are a fan of conspiracy theories, would you mind if someone began to identify you as being hypocritical? Since you have done so with others. This argument of yours has gone nowhere, since I haven't seen the series you reference. May I ask why you must repeat this talking point? You were talking to me, not to everybody. They have nothing in common except being sitcoms, but even then, they're not the similar kind of situational comedy. Seinfeld is a series based on four close friends as they deal with being middle aged in the big city. She-Hulk is about a superhero that happens to be a lawyer, it connects to the larger Marvel Cinematic Universe, and is designed to progress it forward. And I did not bring up the character breaking the fourth wall - where did that come from? I didn't get that impression, and what are you trying to get at here? I am offering my opinion but you're acting like it's the general consensus and trying to justify why a person who was set to dislike the series would like this particular episode.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 4:26:10 GMT
Actually, in the video you shared they express dislike over the appearance of the Claire Redfield character and her actress, who was white. So, there pretty much goes your argument that they were only upset about race swap casting. It is fallacy. Your argument is neither sound nor does it have enough substance to be effective and comes across as a weak. They wouldn't have put a picture of a black woman on the thumbnail if they weren't trying to attract certain people displeased with certain casting.
You see anyone going after Sony or Universal these days? No, it's just Disney.
I don't know the context behind such imagery so I cannot know for sure why, I don't regularly watch their content because they all upload quite often and their live-streams go on for pretty long generally so I do not think I can form a proper opinion on this specific instance. I actually have seen people going after Sony and Comcat (Who owns Universal) these days, so no, not just Disney.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 28, 2023 16:12:47 GMT
Many people who were against the show's very existence and were always going to hate it. Which shows how things have regressed.
They found her "unlikable" for silly reasons, while ignoring that they love other characters have far worse traits than her.
You need to give it a rest. Not everyone who didn't like the series was going in looking to hate on it for its very existence, and many were just hoping for a very good program to watch every week...And they didn't get it (their opinion, which they right to as much as you do yours for liking it) You also need to stop trying to paint anyone who disagrees with you as being a hypocrite, if they did not like the presentation of She-Hulk as a character but enjoys someone from another series like Seinfeld much more amusing it isn't hypocrisy it's just their opinion on the filmmaking. A character can be written as not very likeable on paper, but the actor and director can still make them entertain and allow for likeable traits to emerge from the performance. Take for instance Bruce Willis in the 1998 blockbuster Armageddon, not a great movie but the people who much enjoyed it liked Willis and many in the audience did cry when he said goodbye to his on-screen daughter Liv Tyler when he sacrifices himself to save the Earth. On paper, his character isn't depicted as the nicest guy around or the classiest with questionable parenting skills and work ethic, but Willis was able to make it work to where it made solid profit in its entire theatrical run, had the actor been a Kevin Costner, I do not think it would have clicked with as many people and the noticeable divide between critics and general moviegoers would have happened. Oh believe me, they were out to hate the show from Day One. Earlier than Day One actually.
It does show double standards though.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 28, 2023 16:13:32 GMT
If they made the videos tearing into the show and commented on those videos voicing their support for the content creators, then yes they do have a bias/an agenda/a bit funny in the head. Generalizations for the win, then. You really do like your fallacies...(In case you are wondering, a fallacy is not a good thing in debate). Having seen the deranged behavior of these content creators and their supporters, it's not a generalization.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 28, 2023 16:15:31 GMT
The Female Grifters looking for easy $$$? Yes, they exist.
IE, if Jen had no self-respect, was wrong about everything, always needed someone else to do stuff for her and never accomplished anything on her own. I can see why that would appeal to certain folks.
I was referring to female consumers on the whole, there are definitely women who did not like the series. No, that is not what I would have wanted, where was that implied in the paragraph? Not the way the Male Grifters and their followers do. Female Grifters looking for easy $$$ just jumped on the bandwagon.
You wanted her to crawl back to Bruce and beg for forgiveness, IE for her to have no pride or self-respect and let everyone walk all over her.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 28, 2023 16:17:41 GMT
It didn't get a chance, at all. The second the show was announced it got torn into.
Shows more how the complaints about the show are silly to begin with.
But not by everybody, there were people who were looking forward to it and didn't like it. If anything, you are only presenting yourself as a jerk and a bully to anyone who doesn't agree with you. I found no one looking forward to it, not willing to say so the same way the Grifters were ranting about her very existence.
If they side with the Grifters, those people deserve to be disagreed with.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 28, 2023 16:21:34 GMT
But they were secretly hoping it would be and they wouldn't really have to put up with Jen at all except as a useless sidekick/damsel for Bruce.
Obviously the lessons it taught have been forgotten.
They are. They're both sitcom series, and She-Hulk does what she's always done in the comics which is break the 4th Wall. I don't see anyone complaining her comics ruin the rest of the Marvel Universe.
It was very much her show getting stolen from her by Daredevil, being dominant the whole time and making her secondary. Precisely what they were hoping the entire show would be, with a male lead being the one really in charge and Jen being a secondary.
I must say for someone who doesn't like a person like an Alex Jones, you certainly are a fan of conspiracy theories, would you mind if someone began to identify you as being hypocritical? Since you have done so with others. This argument of yours has gone nowhere, since I haven't seen the series you reference. May I ask why you must repeat this talking point? You were talking to me, not to everybody. They have nothing in common except being sitcoms, but even then, they're not the similar kind of situational comedy. Seinfeld is a series based on four close friends as they deal with being middle aged in the big city. She-Hulk is about a superhero that happens to be a lawyer, it connects to the larger Marvel Cinematic Universe, and is designed to progress it forward. And I did not bring up the character breaking the fourth wall - where did that come from? I didn't get that impression, and what are you trying to get at here? I am offering my opinion but you're acting like it's the general consensus and trying to justify why a person who was set to dislike the series would like this particular episode. Wouldn't be the first time. As soon as I started disagreeing with anything the Grifters posted their Cultists came after me and harassed me, I've come to expect it when I show I don't hate everything about the current MCU.
The lessons it taught have faded from modern society, which is shown by you not even knowing about the show to start with.
They're sitcoms, that's the thing in common. Yet Seinfeld gets away with everything. And the 4th Wall Breaking in the last episode got tons of complaints.
That the only reason certain folks say they liked the Daredevil episode was because they enjoyed seeing Jen take a backseat to a male character, which is what they were hoping would be the entire series. Her being a useless secondary in her own show while a male lead was the real star.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 28, 2023 16:22:36 GMT
They wouldn't have put a picture of a black woman on the thumbnail if they weren't trying to attract certain people displeased with certain casting.
You see anyone going after Sony or Universal these days? No, it's just Disney.
I don't know the context behind such imagery so I cannot know for sure why, I don't regularly watch their content because they all upload quite often and their live-streams go on for pretty long generally so I do not think I can form a proper opinion on this specific instance. I actually have seen people going after Sony and Comcat (Who owns Universal) these days, so no, not just Disney. The context was that they wanted to attract certain people who were against a nonwhite actress being in the movie, in any capacity.
Nowhere near the way they go after Disney.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 22:38:23 GMT
You need to give it a rest. Not everyone who didn't like the series was going in looking to hate on it for its very existence, and many were just hoping for a very good program to watch every week...And they didn't get it (their opinion, which they right to as much as you do yours for liking it) You also need to stop trying to paint anyone who disagrees with you as being a hypocrite, if they did not like the presentation of She-Hulk as a character but enjoys someone from another series like Seinfeld much more amusing it isn't hypocrisy it's just their opinion on the filmmaking. A character can be written as not very likeable on paper, but the actor and director can still make them entertain and allow for likeable traits to emerge from the performance. Take for instance Bruce Willis in the 1998 blockbuster Armageddon, not a great movie but the people who much enjoyed it liked Willis and many in the audience did cry when he said goodbye to his on-screen daughter Liv Tyler when he sacrifices himself to save the Earth. On paper, his character isn't depicted as the nicest guy around or the classiest with questionable parenting skills and work ethic, but Willis was able to make it work to where it made solid profit in its entire theatrical run, had the actor been a Kevin Costner, I do not think it would have clicked with as many people and the noticeable divide between critics and general moviegoers would have happened. Oh believe me, they were out to hate the show from Day One. Earlier than Day One actually.
It does show double standards though.
But that wasn't everybody, it is ridiculous to suggest that literally every single person who didn't like the series was set to hate it from the start. No, it doesn't. It means that someone prefers one character over the other because of the filmmaking.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 22:46:59 GMT
Generalizations for the win, then. You really do like your fallacies...(In case you are wondering, a fallacy is not a good thing in debate). Having seen the deranged behavior of these content creators and their supporters, it's not a generalization. It is a generalization, because you are saying that anyone who is not in favor of She-Hulk: Attorney At Law must be a grifter on YouTube or a supporter who worships like a cult leader. What about the people who wanted to give it a chance and just didn't like it? Why is it this concept so difficult to understand?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 22:50:30 GMT
I was referring to female consumers on the whole, there are definitely women who did not like the series. No, that is not what I would have wanted, where was that implied in the paragraph? Not the way the Male Grifters and their followers do. Female Grifters looking for easy $$$ just jumped on the bandwagon.
You wanted her to crawl back to Bruce and beg for forgiveness, IE for her to have no pride or self-respect and let everyone walk all over her.
Enough of this, please. You can tell that I was referring to female consumers on the whole, that includes women who don't spend a lot of time on the internet or care about culture wars and just were looking for an entertaining series to watch but didn't get it. I said nor did I suggest any such thing.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 23:00:38 GMT
But not by everybody, there were people who were looking forward to it and didn't like it. If anything, you are only presenting yourself as a jerk and a bully to anyone who doesn't agree with you. I found no one looking forward to it, not willing to say so the same way the Grifters were ranting about her very existence.
If they side with the Grifters, those people deserve to be disagreed with.
Maybe in your online ventures, but I saw a lot of people who said that they were looking forward to the series and were intrigued by the creative possibilities, given the source material. You are presenting yourself as a jerk and a bully who is not willing to allow people with different opinions than you on specific media. I cannot even be allowed to say that I genuinely enjoyed the eighth episode of She-Hulk the most because, apparently, I have problematic beliefs and attitudes and must have to change my opinion to be on the right side of history.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 23:22:03 GMT
I must say for someone who doesn't like a person like an Alex Jones, you certainly are a fan of conspiracy theories, would you mind if someone began to identify you as being hypocritical? Since you have done so with others. This argument of yours has gone nowhere, since I haven't seen the series you reference. May I ask why you must repeat this talking point? You were talking to me, not to everybody. They have nothing in common except being sitcoms, but even then, they're not the similar kind of situational comedy. Seinfeld is a series based on four close friends as they deal with being middle aged in the big city. She-Hulk is about a superhero that happens to be a lawyer, it connects to the larger Marvel Cinematic Universe, and is designed to progress it forward. And I did not bring up the character breaking the fourth wall - where did that come from? I didn't get that impression, and what are you trying to get at here? I am offering my opinion but you're acting like it's the general consensus and trying to justify why a person who was set to dislike the series would like this particular episode. Wouldn't be the first time. As soon as I started disagreeing with anything the Grifters posted their Cultists came after me and harassed me, I've come to expect it when I show I don't hate everything about the current MCU.
The lessons it taught have faded from modern society, which is shown by you not even knowing about the show to start with.
They're sitcoms, that's the thing in common. Yet Seinfeld gets away with everything. And the 4th Wall Breaking in the last episode got tons of complaints.
That the only reason certain folks say they liked the Daredevil episode was because they enjoyed seeing Jen take a backseat to a male character, which is what they were hoping would be the entire series. Her being a useless secondary in her own show while a male lead was the real star.
If you had negative interactions with people with very different opinions than you online, then that is unfortunate, but that doesn't give you justification to label just anyone (Referring to those on here in this very topic) who does not agree with you as having problematic beliefs and values and generally being a toxic individual. If you think She-Hulk: Attorney At Law is the best series ever created minus one episode (that being eight) then good for you, but not everybody is going to agree with you about it. I didn't watch The Mary Tyler Moore Show because I was never able to catch it when it would air in syndication, and if it was on I was preoccupied with other programming or taking care of other matters. It says nothing about society on the whole, I just was busy with other things. It is the only thing that they have in common, beyond that they are nothing alike in premise and in design. Have you considered that the problem there might be because the filmmaking on Seinfeld was better than She-Hulk? Just a thought but based on how you have presented yourself thus far such an opinion of mine is clearly the wrong one. "Certain folks"? I thought we were talking about me and my opinions. I liked the episode the most because the balance of the different styles of humor worked most effectively, the story was entertaining, I liked the interplay between Walters and Murdock, and it proved to me that Daredevil as played by Charlie Cox can work in a lighter setting. But apparently, I am not allowed to enjoy it otherwise I am a problematic person.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 23:25:28 GMT
I don't know the context behind such imagery so I cannot know for sure why, I don't regularly watch their content because they all upload quite often and their live-streams go on for pretty long generally so I do not think I can form a proper opinion on this specific instance. I actually have seen people going after Sony and Comcat (Who owns Universal) these days, so no, not just Disney. The context was that they wanted to attract certain people who were against a nonwhite actress being in the movie, in any capacity.
Nowhere near the way they go after Disney.
Since you have a problem with these people and are set to make sure everyone believes that are scam artists and their supporters are toxic people, I don't think I should take your judgment as being the definitive answer. So, you admit that you were wrong, and that people also go after Sony and Comcast, and not just Disney?
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 29, 2023 0:15:27 GMT
Oh believe me, they were out to hate the show from Day One. Earlier than Day One actually.
It does show double standards though.
But that wasn't everybody, it is ridiculous to suggest that literally every single person who didn't like the series was set to hate it from the start. No, it doesn't. It means that someone prefers one character over the other because of the filmmaking. The vast majority certainly were.t
Not the film-making, very much not the film-making.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 29, 2023 0:16:20 GMT
Having seen the deranged behavior of these content creators and their supporters, it's not a generalization. It is a generalization, because you are saying that anyone who is not in favor of She-Hulk: Attorney At Law must be a grifter on YouTube or a supporter who worships like a cult leader. What about the people who wanted to give it a chance and just didn't like it? Why is it this concept so difficult to understand? Hardly anyone did want to give it a chance, they were against her very character concept and those who knew the comics still thought she was a bad character to adapt.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 29, 2023 0:18:03 GMT
Not the way the Male Grifters and their followers do. Female Grifters looking for easy $$$ just jumped on the bandwagon.
You wanted her to crawl back to Bruce and beg for forgiveness, IE for her to have no pride or self-respect and let everyone walk all over her.
Enough of this, please. You can tell that I was referring to female consumers on the whole, that includes women who don't spend a lot of time on the internet or care about culture wars and just were looking for an entertaining series to watch but didn't get it. I said nor did I suggest any such thing. The only female consumers complaining are the Female Grifters, the others haven't raised complaints.
You wanted Jen to get broken by experiences and beg Bruce for an apology and admit she knew nothing and couldn't do anything without him.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 29, 2023 0:21:13 GMT
I found no one looking forward to it, not willing to say so the same way the Grifters were ranting about her very existence.
If they side with the Grifters, those people deserve to be disagreed with.
Maybe in your online ventures, but I saw a lot of people who said that they were looking forward to the series and were intrigued by the creative possibilities, given the source material. You are presenting yourself as a jerk and a bully who is not willing to allow people with different opinions than you on specific media. I cannot even be allowed to say that I genuinely enjoyed the eighth episode of She-Hulk the most because, apparently, I have problematic beliefs and attitudes and must have to change my opinion to be on the right side of history. I found none with that open mindedness. The ones I found were mad because her existence meant Bruce would no longer be this lonely angry person (even though Endgame already showed he wasn't) and it would add unnecessary comedy to his dark character.
If they side with Grifters, the people who ruin fandoms, then it's deserved. And Admitting you liked the one episode where the female lead became a useless secondary to a male guest star who took over the show from her doesn't say much.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 29, 2023 0:25:59 GMT
Wouldn't be the first time. As soon as I started disagreeing with anything the Grifters posted their Cultists came after me and harassed me, I've come to expect it when I show I don't hate everything about the current MCU.
The lessons it taught have faded from modern society, which is shown by you not even knowing about the show to start with.
They're sitcoms, that's the thing in common. Yet Seinfeld gets away with everything. And the 4th Wall Breaking in the last episode got tons of complaints.
That the only reason certain folks say they liked the Daredevil episode was because they enjoyed seeing Jen take a backseat to a male character, which is what they were hoping would be the entire series. Her being a useless secondary in her own show while a male lead was the real star.
If you had negative interactions with people with very different opinions than you online, then that is unfortunate, but that doesn't give you justification to label just anyone (Referring to those on here in this very topic) who does not agree with you as having problematic beliefs and values and generally being a toxic individual. If you think She-Hulk: Attorney At Law is the best series ever created minus one episode (that being eight) then good for you, but not everybody is going to agree with you about it. I didn't watch The Mary Tyler Moore Show because I was never able to catch it when it would air in syndication, and if it was on I was preoccupied with other programming or taking care of other matters. It says nothing about society on the whole, I just was busy with other things. It is the only thing that they have in common, beyond that they are nothing alike in premise and in design. Have you considered that the problem there might be because the filmmaking on Seinfeld was better than She-Hulk? Just a thought but based on how you have presented yourself thus far such an opinion of mine is clearly the wrong one. "Certain folks"? I thought we were talking about me and my opinions. I liked the episode the most because the balance of the different styles of humor worked most effectively, the story was entertaining, I liked the interplay between Walters and Murdock, and it proved to me that Daredevil as played by Charlie Cox can work in a lighter setting. But apparently, I am not allowed to enjoy it otherwise I am a problematic person. I didn't hate it for the fact it existed, and that's what Grifter Cultists just can't stand.
It says that society forgot the lessons it taught.
The problem is the double standards and how a character like Jen can't get away with stuff that Jerry and George and Elaine and Kramer would get away with.
You can enjoy it, just as long as you admit the only episode you enjoyed was the one where the main character had to be sidelined and reduced to a useless damsel.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 29, 2023 0:26:58 GMT
The context was that they wanted to attract certain people who were against a nonwhite actress being in the movie, in any capacity.
Nowhere near the way they go after Disney.
Since you have a problem with these people and are set to make sure everyone believes that are scam artists and their supporters are toxic people, I don't think I should take your judgment as being the definitive answer. So, you admit that you were wrong, and that people also go after Sony and Comcast, and not just Disney? Believe what you want, but not everyone supports Grifters.
If they do, it's nowhere near as much as they go after Disney. I've seen anyone go after Sony and Universal.
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