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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 8:01:47 GMT
Wokeness really ruined the third act of Black Widow. They were so set on featuring Nat saving the completely innocent Widows from a Harley Weinberg stand-in that they robbed the film and its lead character of all moral complexity. I’m not opposed to the social messaging of it, but damn if it didn’t make for a boring climax. I have no clue what you are taking about. What was life like before "Woke" erupted upon us like cordyceps. The politics of that stuff doesn’t bother me. I’m very progressive. I just found this example to be lazy writing. I’d much prefer the priority go to characterization and story. Black Widow sacrificed both to shoe horn in some rather uninspired and pedestrian social commentary. Of course, there are also certainly movies with “WOKE” social commentary that I admire. Knives Out is a recent example. It just has to actually be smart and organic rather than pandering and insipid like Black Widow.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 6, 2023 8:04:01 GMT
Wokeness really ruined the third act of Black Widow. They were so set on featuring Nat saving the completely innocent Widows from a Harley Weinberg stand-in that they robbed the film and its lead character of all moral complexity. I’m not opposed to the social messaging of it, but damn if it didn’t make for a boring climax. I have no clue what you are taking about. What was life like before "Woke" erupted upon us like cordyceps. Yo real life Last of Us when!?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 8:06:39 GMT
I have no clue what you are taking about. What was life like before "Woke" erupted upon us like cordyceps. Yo real life Last of Us when!? Next omicron variant.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 6, 2023 8:49:39 GMT
I have no clue what you are taking about. What was life like before "Woke" erupted upon us like cordyceps. The politics of that stuff doesn’t bother me. I’m very progressive. I just found this example to be lazy writing. I’d much prefer the priority go to characterization and story. Black Widow sacrificed both to shoe horn in some rather uninspired and pedestrian social commentary. Of course, there are also certainly movies with “WOKE” social commentary that I admire. Knives Out is a recent example. It just has to actually be smart and organic rather than pandering and insipid like Black Widow. I agree with this. It's not the message itself that's the problem, it's the fact that they're willing to butcher the story and the characters just so they could focus on their message. It's not just lazy, it's downright duplicitous. It's like me buying a cheeseburger only to be served a veggie-sandwich because the vendor decided veggies are good for you. I mean, sure, veggies are healthy and all but that's not what I ordered and not what they advertised. Same way you go in a theater expecting an entertaining high-budget blockbuster but instead you get a movie that's barely entertaining and more concerned about preaching and lecturing to you. Even if I agree with the message, it's not what I went to see this movie for.
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 6, 2023 10:11:28 GMT
The politics of that stuff doesn’t bother me. I’m very progressive. I just found this example to be lazy writing. I’d much prefer the priority go to characterization and story. Black Widow sacrificed both to shoe horn in some rather uninspired and pedestrian social commentary. Of course, there are also certainly movies with “WOKE” social commentary that I admire. Knives Out is a recent example. It just has to actually be smart and organic rather than pandering and insipid like Black Widow. I agree with this. It's not the message itself that's the problem, it's the fact that they're willing to butcher the story and the characters just so they could focus on their message. It's not just lazy, it's downright duplicitous. It's like me buying a cheeseburger only to be served a veggie-sandwich because the vendor decided veggies are good for you. I mean, sure, veggies are healthy and all but that's not what I ordered and not what they advertised. Same way you go in a theater expecting an entertaining high-budget blockbuster but instead you get a movie that's barely entertaining and more concerned about preaching and lecturing to you. Even if I agree with the message, it's not what I went to see this movie for. It effects comedy too. Late night tv goes for clapter, not laughter anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 16:21:18 GMT
The politics of that stuff doesn’t bother me. I’m very progressive. I just found this example to be lazy writing. I’d much prefer the priority go to characterization and story. Black Widow sacrificed both to shoe horn in some rather uninspired and pedestrian social commentary. Of course, there are also certainly movies with “WOKE” social commentary that I admire. Knives Out is a recent example. It just has to actually be smart and organic rather than pandering and insipid like Black Widow. I agree with this. It's not the message itself that's the problem, it's the fact that they're willing to butcher the story and the characters just so they could focus on their message. It's not just lazy, it's downright duplicitous. It's like me buying a cheeseburger only to be served a veggie-sandwich because the vendor decided veggies are good for you. I mean, sure, veggies are healthy and all but that's not what I ordered and not what they advertised. Same way you go in a theater expecting an entertaining high-budget blockbuster but instead you get a movie that's barely entertaining and more concerned about preaching and lecturing to you. Even if I agree with the message, it's not what I went to see this movie for. Precisely.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 6, 2023 16:33:18 GMT
Are you talking about WandaVision again? You're really grasping with that.
They didn't want a random deus ex machina to come in and do the main characters work for them, it had nothing to do with politics or "straight white male". It's just good writing.
But example, Jessica Jones. Nuke turned out to be right about everything he said and did, yet the show made him out to be a villain and in the end Jessica ends up doing exactly what he said they should do all along and the show makes her out to be a hero for it.
They simply realized that the original ending for WandaVision was inherently bad, and corrected that.
See? Told you you'd just deny it. You claim I'm grasping yet Feige himself stated specifically that they didn't want a white man to save the day which is why they changed the ending last minute. You can easily find the quotes from the actual interview online. Are you denying that Feige himself said this? Because if you can't even admit that much then you just proved my point. It's not denying anything, I'm simply pointing out that having a Deus Ex Machina come out and resolve the main plot is bad writing.
You're just too hung up on how Feige said so. ANY character coming out of nowhere to resolve the plot would have been bad. But you can't let go of the "white man" part.
You also ignored how Jessica Jones did the exact same thing.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 6, 2023 16:35:11 GMT
Wokeness really ruined the third act of Black Widow. They were so set on featuring Nat saving the completely innocent Widows from a Harley Weinberg stand-in that they robbed the film and its lead character of all moral complexity. I’m not opposed to the social messaging of it, but damn if it didn’t make for a boring climax. Nat's never been portrayed as a terribly morally ambiguous person in the MCU though, we keep hearing about how she WAS like that in her past but she never acts that way in the present. What would you have considered "Morally Complex" about Black Widow, having it be her Mom who was running the Red Room? That's just as cliche.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 16:40:37 GMT
Wokeness really ruined the third act of Black Widow. They were so set on featuring Nat saving the completely innocent Widows from a Harley Weinberg stand-in that they robbed the film and its lead character of all moral complexity. I’m not opposed to the social messaging of it, but damn if it didn’t make for a boring climax. Nat's never been portrayed as a terribly morally ambiguous person in the MCU though, we keep hearing about how she WAS like that in her past but she never acts that way in the present. What would you have considered "Morally Complex" about Black Widow, having it be her Mom who was running the Red Room? That's just as cliche. It’s just as cliche but it would’ve come more organically out of the story they had written. In fact, I’d be willing to bet it was the case in earlier drafts. It at least would’ve given the movie a more emotionally charged climax. That third act really derails the movie as is. In regards to Nat, her backstory is quite dark. Yes, she is already morally reformed but they still wasted the chance to explore her past actions and have her atone for them in a more nuanced way. Her decision to sacrifice the daughter is basically dismissed and taking away the agency of the current Widows by brainwashing them also drastically simplified what was previously an interesting Jason Bourne-like set up.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 6, 2023 16:46:33 GMT
See? Told you you'd just deny it. You claim I'm grasping yet Feige himself stated specifically that they didn't want a white man to save the day which is why they changed the ending last minute. You can easily find the quotes from the actual interview online. Are you denying that Feige himself said this? Because if you can't even admit that much then you just proved my point. It's not denying anything, I'm simply pointing out that having a Deus Ex Machina come out and resolve the main plot is bad writing.
You're just too hung up on how Feige said so. ANY character coming out of nowhere to resolve the plot would have been bad. But you can't let go of the "white man" part.
You also ignored how Jessica Jones did the exact same thing.
Jessica Jones didn't completely change her last two episodes just because they didn't want a white guy to save the day. That's a complete red herring on your part. And you think I'm the one who's grasping... lol. If Feige didn't want a deus ex machina to save the day then he would have said so. Nothing he said points to them not wanting a deus ex machina, that's something you just made up based on your own interpretation of what he said. What Feige specifically said was that they didn't want a white guy to save the day and show Wanda how her powers worked. If it had nothing to do about race or gender then he wouldn't have mentioned "white guy". He could have just as easily said, "We didn't want another character to steal the spotlight from Wanda". But that's not what he said now is it? The fact that he specifically mentions "white guy" points to the fact that that's what Feige and his team had issues with. In any case, I'm done here. You've pretty much proven my point. If you're unable to admit to something just because it doesn't align with your narrative, even when it's the head of the MCU himself who said it, then there's really no hope for you and I'm just wasting my time here (as I knew I would). So like I said; blind, deaf and dumb.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 6, 2023 16:55:02 GMT
Nat's never been portrayed as a terribly morally ambiguous person in the MCU though, we keep hearing about how she WAS like that in her past but she never acts that way in the present. What would you have considered "Morally Complex" about Black Widow, having it be her Mom who was running the Red Room? That's just as cliche. It’s just as cliche but it would’ve come more organically out of the story they had written. In fact, I’d be willing to bet it was the case in earlier drafts. It at least would’ve given the movie a more emotionally charged climax. That third act really derails the movie as is. In regards to Nat, her backstory is quite dark. Yes, she is already morally reformed but they still wasted the chance to explore her past actions and have her atone for them in a more nuanced way. Her decision to sacrifice the daughter is basically dismissed and taking away the agency of the current Widows by brainwashing them also drastically simplified what was previously an interesting Jason Bourne-like set up. We basically never find out how she "morally reformed". Being shown how she went from a coldblooded assassin to working for Nick Fury and becoming Hawkeye's best friend would have been a tremendous character arc for the movie.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 6, 2023 16:56:56 GMT
Nat's never been portrayed as a terribly morally ambiguous person in the MCU though, we keep hearing about how she WAS like that in her past but she never acts that way in the present. What would you have considered "Morally Complex" about Black Widow, having it be her Mom who was running the Red Room? That's just as cliche. It’s just as cliche but it would’ve come more organically out of the story they had written. In fact, I’d be willing to bet it was the case in earlier drafts. It at least would’ve given the movie a more emotionally charged climax. That third act really derails the movie as is. In regards to Nat, her backstory is quite dark. Yes, she is already morally reformed but they still wasted the chance to explore her past actions and have her atone for them in a more nuanced way. Her decision to sacrifice the daughter is basically dismissed and taking away the agency of the current Widows by brainwashing them also drastically simplified what was previously an interesting Jason Bourne-like set up. So trade cliche for cliche then.
The brainwashing of the Widows can be a simplification, though it was at least a logical thing considering how brainwashing assassins has been a thing since Bucky and he's the prototype for it all. Plus it means that they could give us Yelena right off the bat, and she's worth it.
IMO, Black Widow's problem was that it came too late and it was too much about the other characters than her. I don't blame the writers though, because Nat's dead and those new characters are the ones sticking around longer so the focus should go to them anyways.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 6, 2023 17:00:24 GMT
It's not denying anything, I'm simply pointing out that having a Deus Ex Machina come out and resolve the main plot is bad writing.
You're just too hung up on how Feige said so. ANY character coming out of nowhere to resolve the plot would have been bad. But you can't let go of the "white man" part.
You also ignored how Jessica Jones did the exact same thing.
Jessica Jones didn't completely change her last two episodes just because they didn't want a white guy to save the day. That's a complete red herring on your part. And you think I'm the one who's grasping... lol. If Feige didn't want a deus ex machina to save the day then he would have said so. Nothing he said points to them not wanting a deus ex machina, that's something you just made up based on your own interpretation of what he said. What Feige specifically said was that they didn't want a white guy to save the day and show Wanda how her powers worked. If it had nothing to do about race or gender then he wouldn't have mentioned "white guy". He could have just as easily said, "We didn't want another character to steal the spotlight from Wanda". But that's not what he said now is it? The fact that he specifically mentions "white guy" points to the fact that that's what Feige and his team had issues with. In any case, I'm done here. You've pretty much proven my point. If you're unable to admit to something just because it doesn't align with your narrative, even when it's the head of the MCU himself who said it, then there's really no hope for you and I'm just wasting my time here (as I knew I would). So like I said; blind, deaf and dumb. Jessica Jones had the same plot of "White Guy coming in to be the hero" and the show making him out to be wrong when it turns out he was right all along and the show ends with Jessica doing exactly what he was going to do anyways.
WandaVision took a bad idea and fixed itself for the better.
You're too hung up on him saying "White Guy" and not realizing it's just the same as Deus Ex Machina coming out to resolve the show. The original idea was simply bad, and would've been bad no matter who the Deus Ex Machina was. Having the main character not need a Deus Ex Machina character come in is simply good writing.
Him saying "White Guy" is no different from "Other Character", you reacting this way is much more telling.
Blind, Deaf and Dumb is defining the Buffoon Hater Bandwagon quite nicely.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 17:00:35 GMT
It’s just as cliche but it would’ve come more organically out of the story they had written. In fact, I’d be willing to bet it was the case in earlier drafts. It at least would’ve given the movie a more emotionally charged climax. That third act really derails the movie as is. In regards to Nat, her backstory is quite dark. Yes, she is already morally reformed but they still wasted the chance to explore her past actions and have her atone for them in a more nuanced way. Her decision to sacrifice the daughter is basically dismissed and taking away the agency of the current Widows by brainwashing them also drastically simplified what was previously an interesting Jason Bourne-like set up. We basically never find out how she "morally reformed". Being shown how she went from a coldblooded assassin to working for Nick Fury and becoming Hawkeye's best friend would have been a tremendous character arc for the movie. Absolutely. There’s absolutely no fill-in there. This movie added almost nothing to her characterization. She was such an after thought in her own story.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 6, 2023 17:01:23 GMT
It’s just as cliche but it would’ve come more organically out of the story they had written. In fact, I’d be willing to bet it was the case in earlier drafts. It at least would’ve given the movie a more emotionally charged climax. That third act really derails the movie as is. In regards to Nat, her backstory is quite dark. Yes, she is already morally reformed but they still wasted the chance to explore her past actions and have her atone for them in a more nuanced way. Her decision to sacrifice the daughter is basically dismissed and taking away the agency of the current Widows by brainwashing them also drastically simplified what was previously an interesting Jason Bourne-like set up. We basically never find out how she "morally reformed". Being shown how she went from a coldblooded assassin to working for Nick Fury and becoming Hawkeye's best friend would have been a tremendous character arc for the movie. That would've been a good story for when she was still alive. Not for after she was already dead and her arc complete.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 17:02:46 GMT
It’s just as cliche but it would’ve come more organically out of the story they had written. In fact, I’d be willing to bet it was the case in earlier drafts. It at least would’ve given the movie a more emotionally charged climax. That third act really derails the movie as is. In regards to Nat, her backstory is quite dark. Yes, she is already morally reformed but they still wasted the chance to explore her past actions and have her atone for them in a more nuanced way. Her decision to sacrifice the daughter is basically dismissed and taking away the agency of the current Widows by brainwashing them also drastically simplified what was previously an interesting Jason Bourne-like set up. So trade cliche for cliche then.
The brainwashing of the Widows can be a simplification, though it was at least a logical thing considering how brainwashing assassins has been a thing since Bucky and he's the prototype for it all. Plus it means that they could give us Yelena right off the bat, and she's worth it.
IMO, Black Widow's problem was that it came too late and it was too much about the other characters than her. I don't blame the writers though, because Nat's dead and those new characters are the ones sticking around longer so the focus should go to them anyways.
No. Trade cliche with no emotional or thematic weight for a cliche with some weight to it. I already explained this and you’re conveniently dismissing it. I am only mentioning Rachel Weis’ character be the villain because that’s what you brought up first and the movie already organically sets it up. I didn’t write the script. It’s just an easy way to partially fix what’s there.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 6, 2023 17:20:58 GMT
BUT WAS LOKI WOKEY? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ?
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 6, 2023 17:23:53 GMT
BUT WAS LOKI WOKEY? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ? Probably the 2nd most after She-Hulk.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2023 17:54:55 GMT
BUT WAS LOKI WOKEY? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ? NEVER SEENY!
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 6, 2023 18:34:10 GMT
BUT WAS LOKI WOKEY? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ? Probably the 2nd most after She-Hulk. Okay I'll bite, just out of curiosity what was woke about Loki?
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