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Post by Skaathar on Feb 6, 2023 19:10:40 GMT
Probably the 2nd most after She-Hulk. Okay I'll bite, just out of curiosity what was woke about Loki? The extreme ̶e̶m̶a̶s̶c̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ downgrade of Loki that was done without any rhyme or reason, so much so that he no longer resembled his original character. Then showcasing female Loki (Sylvie?) to be massively better than male Loki at nearly everything despite the fact that her backstory didn't justify it. There's more little things here and there but that one above is the big one. It's not so much that Loki's powers were downgraded (we see that happen to other MCU characters) but the fact that he kept getting humiliated over and over again in his own show. I don't believe I've ever seen any other MCU character get treated with such disrespect in their own show, and clearly in an effort to elevate their counterpart. I would also have had no issues with Sylvie being more powerful (I was completely ok with Hela wiping the floor with Thor and Loki) as long as there was a decent explanation for why she was more powerful and as long as they did it without character-assassinating Loki. Unfortunately they did the exact opposite.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 6, 2023 20:19:35 GMT
We basically never find out how she "morally reformed". Being shown how she went from a coldblooded assassin to working for Nick Fury and becoming Hawkeye's best friend would have been a tremendous character arc for the movie. That would've been a good story for when she was still alive. Not for after she was already dead and her arc complete. That's the problem with that movie-- no story was worth telling at that point, the character was already dead.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 6, 2023 21:08:22 GMT
That would've been a good story for when she was still alive. Not for after she was already dead and her arc complete. That's the problem with that movie-- no story was worth telling at that point, the character was already dead. Yup. Any story, unless it was a resurrection one, would have had no real impact since BW was already dead in the MCU timeline. The most they could have done is do a backstory on Natasha's origins (because people were at least still interested about that), but instead they mostly just showed her going on a side quest. I mean, social politics aside, I'm completely boggled at how anyone thought this was a good idea.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 6, 2023 21:33:21 GMT
The politics of that stuff doesn’t bother me. I’m very progressive. I just found this example to be lazy writing. I’d much prefer the priority go to characterization and story. Black Widow sacrificed both to shoe horn in some rather uninspired and pedestrian social commentary. Of course, there are also certainly movies with “WOKE” social commentary that I admire. Knives Out is a recent example. It just has to actually be smart and organic rather than pandering and insipid like Black Widow. I agree with this. It's not the message itself that's the problem, it's the fact that they're willing to butcher the story and the characters just so they could focus on their message. It's not just lazy, it's downright duplicitous. It's like me buying a cheeseburger only to be served a veggie-sandwich because the vendor decided veggies are good for you. I mean, sure, veggies are healthy and all but that's not what I ordered and not what they advertised. Same way you go in a theater expecting an entertaining high-budget blockbuster but instead you get a movie that's barely entertaining and more concerned about preaching and lecturing to you. Even if I agree with the message, it's not what I went to see this movie for. I agree with this. I am for progressive messaging being presented in media, but its existence needs to be warranted in the story and lines up with the character(s), and it is executed appropriately for its target audience and is presented in a way that feels universal, not polarizing.
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Post by Lux on Feb 6, 2023 22:00:12 GMT
Okay I'll bite, just out of curiosity what was woke about Loki? The extreme ̶e̶m̶a̶s̶c̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ downgrade of Loki that was done without any rhyme or reason, so much so that he no longer resembled his original character. Then showcasing female Loki (Sylvie?) to be massively better than male Loki at nearly everything despite the fact that her backstory didn't justify it. There's more little things here and there but that one above is the big one. It's not so much that Loki's powers were downgraded (we see that happen to other MCU characters) but the fact that he kept getting humiliated over and over again in his own show. I don't believe I've ever seen any other MCU character get treated with such disrespect in their own show, and clearly in an effort to elevate their counterpart. I would also have had no issues with Sylvie being more powerful (I was completely ok with Hela wiping the floor with Thor and Loki) as long as there was a decent explanation for why she was more powerful and as long as they did it without character-assassinating Loki. Unfortunately they did the exact opposite. Loki should never have had a TV series in the first place anything else is just white noise. Fantastic villain that should stay a villain.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 6, 2023 22:56:02 GMT
I agree with this. It's not the message itself that's the problem, it's the fact that they're willing to butcher the story and the characters just so they could focus on their message. It's not just lazy, it's downright duplicitous. It's like me buying a cheeseburger only to be served a veggie-sandwich because the vendor decided veggies are good for you. I mean, sure, veggies are healthy and all but that's not what I ordered and not what they advertised. Same way you go in a theater expecting an entertaining high-budget blockbuster but instead you get a movie that's barely entertaining and more concerned about preaching and lecturing to you. Even if I agree with the message, it's not what I went to see this movie for. I agree with this. I am for progressive messaging being presented in media, but its existence needs to be warranted in the story and lines up with the character(s), and it is executed appropriately for its target audience and is presented in a way that feels universal, not polarizing. Back in the late 80's to 90's, bible preachers were fairly common in my city. They'd walk up to you while you were in the mall, sit down next to you while you were in the park, even just knock on your door then start preaching and lecturing at you. The main gist of what they were preaching was actually fairly decent stuff. Mostly it was about doing good, loving your neighbor, avoid doing bad things etc. The problem was how aggressively they were trying to sell you on it. They got right in your face, wouldn't leave you alone, insisted that you show the same fanaticism they had, and if you showed even the least bit resistant to their message then you were called a sinner and told your soul is going to hell if you didn't repent. I feel like that's pretty much what's happening with modern socio-political messaging. The method of preaching is different, the message is different, the namecalling different, but it's pretty much the same fanaticism and mentality.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 7, 2023 4:03:32 GMT
That would've been a good story for when she was still alive. Not for after she was already dead and her arc complete. That's the problem with that movie-- no story was worth telling at that point, the character was already dead. It gave us Yelena and Red Guardian and (maybe) Melina for future stories. So there's that.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 7, 2023 4:05:00 GMT
I agree with this. I am for progressive messaging being presented in media, but its existence needs to be warranted in the story and lines up with the character(s), and it is executed appropriately for its target audience and is presented in a way that feels universal, not polarizing. Back in the late 80's to 90's, bible preachers were fairly common in my city. They'd walk up to you while you were in the mall, sit down next to you while you were in the park, even just knock on your door then start preaching and lecturing at you. The main gist of what they were preaching was actually fairly decent stuff. Mostly it was about doing good, loving your neighbor, avoid doing bad things etc. The problem was how aggressively they were trying to sell you on it. They got right in your face, wouldn't leave you alone, insisted that you show the same fanaticism they had, and if you showed even the least bit resistant to their message then you were called a sinner and told your soul is going to hell if you didn't repent. I feel like that's pretty much what's happening with modern socio-political messaging. The method of preaching is different, the message is different, the namecalling different, but it's pretty much the same fanaticism and mentality. Given the American public voted Donald Trump into Office, I'd say it's warranted that Progressive people felt being subtle wasn't going to do the trick. For those 4 years it was nearly nothing but every Reactionary acting like they'd won some great war and the last 60 years of culture would be washed away.
Can't blame the Anti-Conservatives for wanting some well-earned payback.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 7, 2023 4:39:56 GMT
Okay I'll bite, just out of curiosity what was woke about Loki? The extreme ̶e̶m̶a̶s̶c̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ downgrade of Loki that was done without any rhyme or reason, so much so that he no longer resembled his original character. Then showcasing female Loki (Sylvie?) to be massively better than male Loki at nearly everything despite the fact that her backstory didn't justify it. There's more little things here and there but that one above is the big one. It's not so much that Loki's powers were downgraded (we see that happen to other MCU characters) but the fact that he kept getting humiliated over and over again in his own show. I don't believe I've ever seen any other MCU character get treated with such disrespect in their own show, and clearly in an effort to elevate their counterpart. I would also have had no issues with Sylvie being more powerful (I was completely ok with Hela wiping the floor with Thor and Loki) as long as there was a decent explanation for why she was more powerful and as long as they did it without character-assassinating Loki. Unfortunately they did the exact opposite. Uh-huh, and if they'd had the Richard Grant "Classic Loki" being the one who was more powerful than MCU Loki, you'd have been fine with that?
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 7, 2023 6:15:45 GMT
The extreme ̶e̶m̶a̶s̶c̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ downgrade of Loki that was done without any rhyme or reason, so much so that he no longer resembled his original character. Then showcasing female Loki (Sylvie?) to be massively better than male Loki at nearly everything despite the fact that her backstory didn't justify it. There's more little things here and there but that one above is the big one. It's not so much that Loki's powers were downgraded (we see that happen to other MCU characters) but the fact that he kept getting humiliated over and over again in his own show. I don't believe I've ever seen any other MCU character get treated with such disrespect in their own show, and clearly in an effort to elevate their counterpart. I would also have had no issues with Sylvie being more powerful (I was completely ok with Hela wiping the floor with Thor and Loki) as long as there was a decent explanation for why she was more powerful and as long as they did it without character-assassinating Loki. Unfortunately they did the exact opposite. Uh-huh, and if they'd had the Richard Grant "Classic Loki" being the one who was more powerful than MCU Loki, you'd have been fine with that? Only if they can do so without degrading MCU Loki and if Classic Loki's backstory justifies how he's that much more powerful. Unfortunately that's not what happened, so that's another red herring on your part.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 7, 2023 14:27:36 GMT
Uh-huh, and if they'd had the Richard Grant "Classic Loki" being the one who was more powerful than MCU Loki, you'd have been fine with that? Only if they can do so without degrading MCU Loki and if Classic Loki's backstory justifies how he's that much more powerful. Unfortunately that's not what happened, so that's another red herring on your part. When there is a winner, there must also be a loser. That's how it is. For any other character to be stronger, MCU Loki would look less.
Strange how so many can't grasp that concept.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 7, 2023 16:36:37 GMT
Only if they can do so without degrading MCU Loki and if Classic Loki's backstory justifies how he's that much more powerful. Unfortunately that's not what happened, so that's another red herring on your part. When there is a winner, there must also be a loser. That's how it is. For any other character to be stronger, MCU Loki would look less.
Strange how so many can't grasp that concept.
I take it you didn't actually read and understand my point then? Because if you actually understood it, you'd know that I was never complaining about someone simply being more powerful than MCU Loki. Anyway, I don't know why I'm responding to you again. At this point I think you've proven that you're pretty much a troll and can't be engaged with in honest conversation. Into the ignore list you go.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 7, 2023 17:30:38 GMT
When there is a winner, there must also be a loser. That's how it is. For any other character to be stronger, MCU Loki would look less.
Strange how so many can't grasp that concept.
I take it you didn't actually read and understand my point then? Because if you actually understood it, you'd know that I was never complaining about someone simply being more powerful than MCU Loki. Anyway, I don't know why I'm responding to you again. At this point I think you've proven that you're pretty much a troll and can't be engaged with in honest conversation. Into the ignore list you go. I did read, and I know that it doesn't matter what the reasoning was. Loki being shown up wouldn't gotten a negative from you regardless.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2023 23:35:58 GMT
Some people say Thor 4 was woke as a joke. But really it was just a joke!
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 8, 2023 0:25:35 GMT
Thor 4's problem was taking two unconnected stories and trying to make 1 story out of them when they should've been 2 stories for 2 different movies.
Love and Thunder's villain should have been Zeus, sending Hercules to Earth to take out Thor and make the world fear Old Gods like the Greek ones again. So it would be Thor and Mighty Jane vs Hercules, and she dies at the end which is enough to remind Hercules of the nobility of mortals. Jane chose to sacrifice herself to help Thor because he earned her love and dedication, something the Greek Gods lost touch with. Humbled and ashamed, he leaves (or chooses to stay on Earth to regain Humanity's love and respect).
Then Gorr is saved for a future movie that can be more focused on his storyline.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 4:42:39 GMT
Thor 4's problem was taking two unconnected stories and trying to make 1 story out of them when they should've been 2 stories for 2 different movies. Love and Thunder's villain should have been Zeus, sending Hercules to Earth to take out Thor and make the world fear Old Gods like the Greek ones again. So it would be Thor and Mighty Jane vs Hercules, and she dies at the end which is enough to remind Hercules of the nobility of mortals. Jane chose to sacrifice herself to help Thor because he earned her love and dedication, something the Greek Gods lost touch with. Humbled and ashamed, he leaves (or chooses to stay on Earth to regain Humanity's love and respect). Then Gorr is saved for a future movie that can be more focused on his storyline. I think the combination of Gorr and Mighty Thor could’ve worked just fine. Actually there was a very interesting parallel (barely) touched on between Gorr and Jane where he talks about his weapon also killing him, and how the gods are using her but not helping her. The problem was the complete obsession with constant slapstick and a script that barely even cares about its villain.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 8, 2023 5:52:51 GMT
Thor 4's problem was taking two unconnected stories and trying to make 1 story out of them when they should've been 2 stories for 2 different movies. Love and Thunder's villain should have been Zeus, sending Hercules to Earth to take out Thor and make the world fear Old Gods like the Greek ones again. So it would be Thor and Mighty Jane vs Hercules, and she dies at the end which is enough to remind Hercules of the nobility of mortals. Jane chose to sacrifice herself to help Thor because he earned her love and dedication, something the Greek Gods lost touch with. Humbled and ashamed, he leaves (or chooses to stay on Earth to regain Humanity's love and respect). Then Gorr is saved for a future movie that can be more focused on his storyline. I think the combination of Gorr and Mighty Thor could’ve worked just fine. Actually there was a very interesting parallel (barely) touched on between Gorr and Jane where he talks about his weapon also killing him, and how the gods are using her but not helping her. The problem was the complete obsession with constant slapstick and a script that barely even cares about its villain. The main issue was that the movie wasn't taking itself seriously, so the audience couldn't take anything that happened in the movie seriously. Sif losing an arm? Laughable. Jane dying of cancer? Laughable. Children getting kidnapped? Laugh some more. Thor having an identity crisis? Biggest punchline ever.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 7:16:48 GMT
I will say, flawed as it was, I don’t think Thor LaT was too WOKE though. I didn’t mind Jane becoming a Thor and original Thor wasn’t deliberately depowered to make her look better. In fact, he was arguably still far more powerful than her. I personally had no issues with that aspect of the movie.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 8, 2023 7:41:38 GMT
I will say, flawed as it was, I don’t think Thor LaT was “WOKE” though (Whatever WOKE actually means). I didn’t mind Jane becoming a Thor and original Thor wasn’t deliberately depowered to make her look better. In fact, he was arguably still far more powerful than her. I personally had no issues with that aspect of the movie. There was that short bit about Korg having 2 dads and the whole king Valkyrie nonsense but that was about as "woke" as it got. But I agree, the movie itself wasn't what I'd call woke. Just stupid. Though for what it's worth, I actually liked how Jane Thor was depicted. I thought she was one of the better female heroes the MCU had come up with. Way better than her scientist version anyway.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 8, 2023 13:52:45 GMT
I will say, flawed as it was, I don’t think Thor LaT was too WOKE though. I didn’t mind Jane becoming a Thor and original Thor wasn’t deliberately depowered to make her look better. In fact, he was arguably still far more powerful than her. I personally had no issues with that aspect of the movie. All it takes to get something labeled "WOKE" these days is to have a single female who isn't a useless shrieking damsel. Like how Rey was supposed to be a useless shrieking damsel in the Star Wars sequels while Luke was the real main character for 3 movies straight.
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